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Thanks, Greg,<br>
<br>
I was also a bit confused whether I should send the email to both
lists but then decided to keep it here. Fully support your
conclusion. <br>
<br>
As with regard to your first email - yes, we are not there yet. And
if we are to submit the FoI, we have at least to consider the bullet
points. Agree also that the open invitation to provide
recommendations is beyond our mandate unless such consideration will
come as a result of addressing the bullet points in Annex 12.<br>
<br>
As much as I want this job to be finished, as much as I am convinced
we did produce a great document - a textual analysis, as you said,
does not satisfy all the requirements of drafting the FoI. Even if
the text (bylaw analysis) goes to public comments, we have to make
it clear that there are other issues under Annex 12 that we have not
considered yet and that we are working further on this. However, I
am not sure how this satisfies the proposal to confirm that we are
done under the Annex 12. <br>
<br>
Warm regards<br>
<br>
Tanya <br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 27/01/17 20:54, Greg Shatan wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CA+aOHURxKR=W+zoP6qJe54YR0P+EaOoZ7NmioKjr7sFxpDgicA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">
<div class="gmail_default">I was about to revise my email so
it was more free-standing, and then post it to the Plenary
list. But I stopped myself. </div>
<div class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default">We can respond to the Co-Chairs'
email in one of two ways:</div>
<div class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default">1. We can take our discussion to
the Plenary list and work it out there; or</div>
<div class="gmail_default">2. We can work it out here and
then come back to the Plenary ASAP with a consensus
response. It doesn't have to be our Final Answer, but it
should be something to reflect that we are considering the
advice and request from the Co-Chairs (and not rubber
stamping "confirmed"). Eventually (and sooner than later),
we will need our Final Answer, and then we'll need to do
whatever we decide that dictates, if anything.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default">What I don't think we should do is
have some of us take this over to the Plenary list, and some
of us stay over here. That won't really be productive, and
may be counter-productive. So I will not post my thoughts
to the Plenary list, in favor of having us work out our
position over here on the Human Rights list. (And not the
Jurisdiction list either... Apologies for the mush-headed
error...)</div>
<div class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default">Greg</div>
<div class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"> </div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 2:49 PM, Greg
Shatan <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">All,</div>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<div class="gmail_quote"><br>
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">I tend
to agree for the most part with Tatiana. </div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div><font face="verdana, sans-serif">We have been
asked to "confirm that [the Human Rights
subgroup] it has completed developing the
Human Rights FOI per Annex 12." This can't be
a rubber stamp.</font><span
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"> </span><font
face="verdana, sans-serif">We need to satisfy
ourselves that this FoI really reflects </font><i
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">how</i><font
face="verdana, sans-serif"> and <i>that </i>we
have considered each of the following:</font></div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:6.6pt 0.1in
0.0001pt
0.9in;line-height:12.65pt;vertical-align:baseline"><span
style="font-family:symbol;color:black">·<span
style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"times
new roman"">
</span></span><span
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:black">Consider
which specific Human Rights conventions or
other
instruments, if any, should be used by ICANN
in interpreting and implementing
the Human Rights Bylaw.<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:6.9pt 0.15in
0.0001pt
0.9in;line-height:12.65pt;vertical-align:baseline"><span
style="font-family:symbol;color:black">·<span
style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"times
new roman"">
</span></span><span
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:black">Consider
the policies and frameworks, if any, that
ICANN needs to
develop or enhance in order to fulfill its
commitment to respect Human Rights.<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:6.65pt 0.5in
0.0001pt
0.9in;line-height:12.65pt;vertical-align:baseline"><span
style="font-family:symbol;color:black">·<span
style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"times
new roman"">
</span></span><span
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:black">Consistent
with ICANN’s existing processes and
protocols, consider
how these new frameworks should be discussed
and drafted to ensure broad
multistakeholder involvement in the process.<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:6.65pt 0.3in
0.0001pt
0.9in;line-height:12.65pt;vertical-align:baseline"><span
style="font-family:symbol;color:black">·<span
style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"times
new roman"">
</span></span><span
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:black">Consider
what effect, if any, this Bylaw would have
on ICANN’s
consideration of advice given by the
Governmental Advisory Committee (GAC).<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:6.8pt 0in
0.0001pt
0.9in;line-height:12.65pt;vertical-align:baseline"><span
style="font-family:symbol;color:black">·<span
style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"times
new roman"">
</span></span><span
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:black">Consider
how, if at all, this Bylaw will affect how
ICANN’s
operations are carried out.<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:6.85pt 0.1in
0.0001pt
0.9in;line-height:12.65pt;vertical-align:baseline"><span
style="font-family:symbol;color:black">·<span
style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"times
new roman"">
</span></span><span
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:black">Consider
how the interpretation and implementation of
this Bylaw
will interact with existing and future ICANN
policies and procedures.<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:6.85pt 0.1in
0.0001pt
0.9in;line-height:12.65pt;vertical-align:baseline"><br>
</p>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;display:inline">Do
we want "consider" to be synonymous with
"duly take into account" which can be
satisfied by reviewing and considering an
element (say, a public comment) and then
deciding that nothing will be as a result
of that review? At the very least, we need
to make sure we did the "review and
consider" part. If no changes need to be
made in the FoI on a given point, then we
should be able to say why we came to that
conclusion.</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;display:inline"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;display:inline"><b>We
need to have a substantial discussion to
determine whether the FoI reflects that we
have considered each of these elements,
and reflects the outcome of that
consideration.</b></div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;display:inline"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;display:inline"><b>Until
we do this, I strongly question whether
the Framework of Interpretation document
is ready for Public Comment.</b> If we
decided that separate documents/annexes/etc.
were needed, then perhaps this could be put
out for comment. But I question that as
well. Those really are parts of the FoI
package, and would also need to be put out
for Public Comment before the Bylaw
graduates from "dormant" status. Wouldn't
it be better to have the whole package out
there at once? As an alternative, we could
put the FoI out for a second set of comments
while putting the added pieces out for first
comments (and possibly only comments).</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote"><span
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</span></div>
<div class="gmail_quote"><span
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">
<div
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;display:inline">Also,
the determination of the Co-Chairs was
that we follow Annex 12, rather than Annex
6. Annex 12 calls for a single integrated
document reflecting all considerations.
Annex 6 calls for follow-on documents.
Since we are going with Annex 12 any
additional material needed to reflect our
"consideration" <b>must be in the FoI
itself.</b></div>
</span></div>
<div class="gmail_quote"><span
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">
<div
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;display:inline"><b><br>
</b></div>
</span></div>
<div class="gmail_quote"><span
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">
<div
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;display:inline">One
last point. I think that the open-ended
invitation to "</div>
</span><span><span
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">develop
suggestions for ICANN implementing the HR
FOI
<div
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;display:inline">"</div>
</span></span><span
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">
<div style="display:inline"> goes beyond our
mandate. The only implementation advice
we should be giving would be as a result
of "considering" the 6 bullet points
above. One could say there is an express
or implied element of implementation (or
more accuerately "implementation
guidance," which is not quite the same
thing)</div>
</span><font face="verdana, sans-serif">
<div style="display:inline"> in each of
these bullet points. A textual analysis
of the Bylaw, no matter how excellent it
is, does not satisfy any of these points.
And going beyond these points into an
unfettered discussion of suggestions for
Implementation would be going too far.</div>
</font></div>
<div class="gmail_quote"><font face="verdana,
sans-serif">
<div style="display:inline"><br>
</div>
</font></div>
<div class="gmail_quote"><font face="verdana,
sans-serif">
<div style="display:inline">So, I'm sorry to
say, we're not there yet.</div>
</font></div>
<span class="m_-8339779776176025409HOEnZb"><font
color="#888888">
<div class="gmail_quote"><font
face="verdana, sans-serif">
<div style="display:inline"><br>
</div>
</font></div>
<div class="gmail_quote"><font
face="verdana, sans-serif">
<div style="display:inline">Greg</div>
</font></div>
</font></span>
<div>
<div class="m_-8339779776176025409h5">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;display:inline"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;display:inline"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;display:inline"></div>
On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Seun
Ojedeji <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com"
target="_blank">seun.ojedeji@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">
<div class="gmail_extra" dir="auto">
<div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto">Thanks,
do find inline:</div>
<div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Jan 26,
2017 2:11 PM, "León Felipe Sánchez
Ambía" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:leonfelipe@sanchez.mx"
target="_blank">leonfelipe@sanchez.mx</a>>
wrote:<br type="attribution">
<blockquote
class="m_-8339779776176025409m_4906796040590542517gmail-m_6955970487301612232quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div
style="word-wrap:break-word">Dear
all,<span
class="m_-8339779776176025409m_4906796040590542517gmail-">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div
style="font-size:small">Considering
these and other factors
the Co-Chairs would
recommend that the Human
Rights sub-group confirm
that it has completed
developing the Human
Rights FOI per Annex 12
of the
CCWG-Accountability WS1
Recommendations.</div>
</div>
</span></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">SO: Exact question
that I have been asking as well,
which also implies that it's not
helpful to put the draft FoI to
public comment without getting clear
response on the point above!</div>
<span
class="m_-8339779776176025409m_4906796040590542517gmail-">
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra" dir="auto">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote
class="m_-8339779776176025409m_4906796040590542517gmail-m_6955970487301612232quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div
style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div>
<div
style="font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div
style="font-size:small">Should
the sub-group feel that
it should develop
suggestions for ICANN
implementing the HR FOI
based on its work to
date the Co-Chairs would
be amenable to this and
would invite the HR
sub-group to submit any
such suggestions to the
plenary for
consideration by early
May 2017, if there was
no objection from the
plenary.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
</span>
<div dir="auto">SO: May I ask the
Co-Chairs to clarify what part of
the WS1 report mandates the HR
subgroup to carry out the task above
or is this WS2 assigning a new task
to the subgroup?. Like I have said,
it seem to me that all HR needed to
produce was the FoI and they just
need to confirm if the draft they
sent was done is consideration of
Annex 12 period!</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Regards</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra" dir="auto">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote
class="m_-8339779776176025409m_4906796040590542517gmail-m_6955970487301612232quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><span
class="m_-8339779776176025409m_4906796040590542517gmail-">
<div
style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div>
<div
style="font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>Best regards,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thomas, Mathieu and
León</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Ws2-hr mailing list
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