[Ws2-jurisdiction] Blog post on ICANN's jurisdiction
Burr, Becky
Becky.Burr at neustar.biz
Wed Mar 1 14:35:46 UTC 2017
If we assume for the moment that these pose a threat to ICANN as a practical matter, there would be the same or similar problems if ICANN was principally headquartered in other jurisdictions. So, I think the question comes down to this:
1. Given the fact that laws vary from nation to nation, and that any nation that has effective jurisdiction over ICANN may attempt to enforce its laws via ICANN, do the benefits of constituting ICANN as an international organization in with privileges and immunities in a particular jurisdiction outside the US outweigh the disadvantages of doing so? (My read as a US lawyer is that ICANN would not qualify for such status under the US statute.)
In weighing the costs and benefits above, should we not also acknowledge that even if some country granted ICANN privileges and immunities, it would continue to have meaningful and substantial activities in other countries, including the United States, thus subjecting it national law anywhere it conducts sufficient business to create long-arm jurisdiction?
Again, asked in my personal capacity.
From: ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org [mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of parminder
Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2017 12:17 AM
To: ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org
Subject: Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] Blog post on ICANN's jurisdiction
Greg, thanks for the below framing. Let me try to put in my response to it.
About (1) below, the problem has not just been a lack of discipline of people keeping on jumping ahead to likely remedies. It is as much about that clear problems have been identified, and they have neither been argued to not exist, not do we as a group accept them as problems. Ii is this that causes a stalemate. Lets just take one category of oft mentioned problems, of the OFAC variety. Many expressions of this category of problems have been stated here. No one has made the case that these problems do not exist -- if there is any such case I am happy to hear it. . But neither we, as a group, have accepted them as being problems with the current US jurisdiction of ICANN. That is what causes frustration. Rather than clearly accepting them as problems that must be addressed (and I must repeat, this is just one category of them), the argument we often hear is -- that may be as it is, but any alternative would be worse. What then is the option for those who present these problems than to to actually try to speak about possible alternatives, and how they can work and not in fact be worse than the current situation?!
Another category of problems is with regard to the known seizure of dotcom domains by US custom authorities for alleged IP violations by forcing verisign to act as per their orders. For a gTLD, the order will simply be directed at ICANN. No one has shown us why and how would US customs treat ICANN differently than verisign, in pursuance of what it considers as their legal duty.
These seizures by US Customs of domain names for alleged IP violation, by ordering US organisations that allot and control them, also directly shows that any other US agency will do so a similar thing in due enforcement of its mandate. No argument has been forthcoming why this would not be so.
Then, we already have US courts having exerted their jurisdiction over the question whether ICANN's allocation of domains names is lawful or not (as per US law). This act of exerting jurisdiction is a problem enough, for the global public not contributing to US law, and not willing to be dictated by it, whatever be the final decision by these courts.
All these are problems enough - these are not small matters. Are we ready to list them as problems accepted by the group to be so, whether or not there are solutions for them or not, including whether any proposed solution is better or worse then the current situation? This is the question to the group and the chairs. Doing that would be going by the workplan of identifying problems first before we move to plausible solutions. The questionnaire we sent out is just one input into the exercise of identifying and listing problems, it is not the whole exercise. I think we clearly agreed to this. The information that we may receive will complement all that which has already been contributing in many discussion in this group.
Having said this, I agree with you that at the present stage it is best that we moved forward with your option 2.
parminder
On Tuesday 28 February 2017 10:02 PM, Greg Shatan wrote:
All,
Jorge touches on an important point in terms of our working method: "immunities and privileges are something to be discussed if need be under possible remedies to identified problems."
That reflects the working method adopted by the group. Nonetheless, this discussion of "immunity" has cropped up several times before the Subgroup has identified any problem supported by the Subgroup that calls for immunity as a possible remedy. Sometimes (as now) these discussions are at significant length and seem to take up much of the working energy of the Subgroup.
At this point, we can do one of two things:
(1) Suspend any further discussion of immunity unless and until the Subgroup identifies a problem that calls for immunity as a plausible remedy to that problem. Problems can be "identified" from items in any of several sources: proposals from participants in the Subgroup, Questionnaire responses, the review of ICANN's litigation, or possibly ICANN Legal's responses to our questions. An item should not be considered an "identified problem" until the Subgroup supports that designation (i.e., an item is proposed and discusse and the Subgroup supports designating it as a problem for purposes of this Subgroup).
(2) Directly consider and resolve the threshold question of whether immunity can and should be a remedy that this Subgroup would recommend. This question needs to be answered before we move, if at all, to "subsidiary questions" such as "Is immunity available to ICANN?", "How does one get such immunity?", "What does such immunity actually cover?", "What are the consequences of such immunity?", "Can this immunity be customized in some fashion?", "Can such immunity be waived by ICANN (either on a case-by-case basis or generally)?", "What are the conseqences of such waiver?," "How can such immunity be challenged or revoked?", "How would these questions be answered differently under the laws of the US and under the laws of a selected set of other jurisdiction?", etc. If we decide now that immunity is not a remedy this Subgroup would recommend, these other questions do not need to be considered. If we decide that immunity is a remedy this Subgroup would potentially recommend, then we can seek answers to those subsidiary questions in an organized process of the Subgroup, including requesting legal advice.
Option 1 is one that we've tried, but it has not succeeded (at least not for very long). (As Mark Twain once said, "Quitting smoking is easy. I've done it hundreds of times."). If we decide to re-try Option 1, then it will need to be strictly adhered to (and enforced, if need be).
Option 2 is one we have flirted with but have never fully committed to (due to attempts to adhere to Option 1, on the one hand, and the tendency to mix this threshold question in with the subsidiary questions, on the other hand). Escalating these email threads and informal discussions to a focused Subgroup discussion and resolution of just the threshold question could greatly benefit this Subgroup. If we can answer this threshold question now, then we can either (if we answer "no") put the immunity question to rest for this Subgroup; or (if we answer yes), we can suspend further discussions of the "subsidiary questions" until we identify a problem that calls for immunity as a plausible remedy.
Either way, we will be able to move past the immunity question and devote our current working energy to the litigation review and analysis, the Questionnaire response review, identification and discussion of potential problems for consideration by the Subgroup, and consideration of the answers from ICANN Legal (when received).
Given how far and how often we have gone down the path of the "immunity discussion" in some form, and since we may actually be honing in on an answer to this threshold question, I suggest that the Subgroup strongly consider Option 2.
I look forward to your thoughts.
Greg
On Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 3:42 AM <Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch<mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>> wrote:
Dear Becky,y
Apart from possible initial discussion during the very early Frankfurt F2F meetings (February 2015... I wasn't in Frankfurt, but I don't recall that this issue had been really discussed in depth and less excluded from the ws2 work on "jurisdiction"), I guess we would need some clear basis in the work stream 1 recommendations, which are the ones which laid down our community-wide agreements and defined the scope of work for work stream 2.
My feeling is that no decision to exclude was taken, that we still have to look into potential problems (on the basis of the ongoing fact-finding exercises) and that immunities and privileges are something to be discussed if need be under possible remedies to identified problems.
Kind regards
Jorge
Von: ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org<mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org> [mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org<mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org>] Im Auftrag von Burr, Becky
Gesendet: Montag, 27. Februar 2017 18:51
An: Seun Ojedeji <seun.ojedeji at gmail.com<mailto:seun.ojedeji at gmail.com>>
Cc: ws2-jurisdiction <ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org<mailto:ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org>>
Betreff: Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] Blog post on ICANN's jurisdiction
Sure, will have to go back through the F2F meeting transcript, but I think the discussion took place in the first F2F meeting in Frankfurt in January 2015, with one of the outside experts who was pushing the idea
From: Seun Ojedeji [mailto:seun.ojedeji at gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2017 11:38 AM
To: Burr, Becky <Becky.Burr at neustar.biz<mailto:Becky.Burr at neustar.biz>>
Cc: Mueller, Milton L <milton at gatech.edu<mailto:milton at gatech.edu>>; ws2-jurisdiction <ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org<mailto:ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org>>; parminder <parminder at itforchange.net<mailto:parminder at itforchange.net>>
Subject: Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] Blog post on ICANN's jurisdiction
On 27 Feb 2017 22:26, "Burr, Becky" <Becky.Burr at neustar.biz<mailto:Becky.Burr at neustar.biz>> wrote:.
My larger point remains - this question (re privileges and immunities) was asked and answered in WS1.
SO: I for one would appreciate a reference to this for the record so I can confirm if we are talking about similar context. Would you mind providing a reference where the question and response was documented Becky?
Thanks
From: ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org<mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org> [mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org<mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org>] On Behalf Of Mueller, Milton L
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2017 10:06 AM
To: parminder <parminder at itforchange.net<mailto:parminder at itforchange.net>>; ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org<mailto:ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org>
Subject: Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] Blog post on ICANN's jurisdiction
>Yes, it needs action by both the Congress and the President of the US.
> The former will need to just amend some existing laws related to some
> international orgs and add ICANN somewhere in it. Simple work. And
>the President has to issue a decree under the Immunities Act.
So in the name of making ICANN more independent of the US government, you want to subject it to what would undoubtedly be a politically contentious and years-long process of legislation by the U.S. Congress (Republican-dominated) and would require the agreement a President whose platform vowed to never let ICANN be free of the U.S. government.
Really smart.
Does the word "backfire" have any meaning to non-Americans? If not, check out definition #2 here: https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=backfire+definition&*<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.google.com_webhp-3Fsourceid-3Dchrome-2Dinstant-26ion-3D1-26espv-3D2-26ie-3DUTF-2D8-23q-3Dbackfire-2Bdefinition-26-2A&d=DwMFAg&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=lFzxyNZsqPq3dQCf2tQLLZwXRtWJNr01a16Lb6Zo_d8&s=2vjNdjcujIA_f13AAKVmN8mF_RYRvQZJ-bBgxoQ4Dd8&e=>
Dr. Milton L. Mueller
Professor, School of Public Policy
Georgia Institute of Technology
ICANN is not a treaty-based organization,
This is not required.
nor is it conducting work normally carried out by an intergovernmental organization.
As shown by Jorge, this is not true.
Turning it into a treaty-based organization
No need to turn it into treaty based org to get US immunity.
would seem to me to violate the Bylaws-mandated Core Value that requires ICANN to remain rooted in the private sector.
There is a linguistic problem here. Private sector is understood differently in the US than almost everywhere else. In the US, it is just to be outside government, which ICANN is. Outside the US, it mostly mean for profit sector. ICANN is indeed outside government(s), and there is no proposal to change that. But it is also equally a non profit . That also I hope is not intended to be changed.
In any case, whether non profit or for profit, everything is always subject to some kind of governmental jurisdiction. Being so subject does not change its non profit or even for profit nature. So the point is really moot.
This language was contested on numerous occasions by members of the GAC, and the community repeatedly insisted on retaining this orientation. I think that there can be little argument that the community affirmatively committed to maintaining this status through the Accountability work.
The community asked this group to consider the issue of US jurisdiction over ICANN. And a question can only be considered if it is open - -unless, sorry to use that word, we are all mutually and together fooling ourselves, and doing discussions that really have no meaning or purpose. I really hope this is not the case - -although, I must admit, despair often does arises that it may actually may be the case.
parminder
From: ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org<mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org> [mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Seun Ojedeji
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 1:43 PM
To: Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc at gmail.com><mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>
Cc: ws2-jurisdiction <ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org><mailto:ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org>
Subject: Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] Blog post on ICANN's jurisdiction
Sent from my LG G4
Kindly excuse brevity and typos
On Feb 14, 2017 12:29 PM, "Greg Shatan" <gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>> wrote:
Seun,
You say that a "Trump travel Ban . . . compared to
if a travel Ban is placed on Turkey where ICANN has a hub. The former
would have global effects on ICANN than the latter."
Can you clarify how a travel ban into the US from a list of countries would "have global effects on ICANN" and a travel ban into Turkey from a list of countries not have a similar type of effect? Is this just because more people will want to travel to ICANN's operations in the US than those in Turkey?
SO: It's not really because more people "want" to, it's because for ICANN it may be prudent at times to have the meeting in the US. When I say meeting, I am not just referring to the 3 global meetings alone.
Why is it a global effect on ICANN if it only concerns a small number of countries?
SO: Sometime ago I was reading an article mentioning whether I* organisations should cancel subsequent meetings in the US (even though I personally do not think it's worth it to cancel already planned Puerto Rico meeting) but imagine the global effects if such happen. Beyond that such action by US govt also cause unintended(or perhaps unnecessary) consequences/reactions. Like it won't be out of scope for an African govt who is already pissed off with .Africa[1] and second level 2 character to also indicate the ban as an exhibit to drive a point.
Just checkout how many ICANN related articles that connects to the ban has been published lately so you think similar level of response would have happened globally if the travel ban happened in Turkey? I doubt. So it's not always about the few ban countries, it's about the global reaction.
For clarity if ICANN were incorporated in Turkey and same banned happen, the global effect would have still be similar to that of the US at present. So the point is not that it may not have happened if ICANN was incorporated in Turkey (or Switzerland as Paul puts it) but the point is that it is unfair to say the effects to ICANN ORG/community in both scenarios is the same
Regards
1. Ofcourse I recognise there is not light at the end of the tunnel.
[Please note that I personally do not support the travel ban, nor do I minimize the effects it has had and continues to have on citizens of those countries.]
Thanks!
Greg
Greg Shatan
C: 917-816-6428
S: gsshatan
Phone-to-Skype: 646-845-9428
gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>
On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 6:17 AM, Seun Ojedeji <seun.ojedeji at gmail.com<mailto:seun.ojedeji at gmail.com>> wrote:
Thanks Nigel, I am not asking about an overall immunity for ICANN but I am talking about specific scenario like the ones I have indicated. Maybe the right word isn't immunity.
Cheers!
Sent from my LG G4
Kindly excuse brevity and typos
On Feb 14, 2017 11:45 AM, "Nigel Roberts" <nigel at channelisles.net<mailto:nigel at channelisles.net>> wrote:
I think you miss the point about immunity.
It's means "ICANN can do what it likes and can't be sued".
On 14/02/17 09:23, Seun Ojedeji wrote:
Hi,
I am not a lawyer but it doesn't sound accurate to say that the effect
of the country of (US) on ICANN is same with that of other
countries (including the ones hosting her regional hubs) because that is
what I think Paul may be implying here.
As a simple example is a Trump travel Ban and the OFAC stuff compared to
if a travel Ban is placed on Turkey where ICANN has a hub. The former
would have global effects on ICANN than the latter. I for one would be
glad if there can be immunity/exemption for ICANN(used in literary
terms) in such scenarios
Regards
Sent from my LG G4
Kindly excuse brevity and typos
On Feb 13, 2017 7:59 PM, "Paul Rosenzweig"
<paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com<mailto:paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com>
<mailto:paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com<mailto:paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com>>> wrote:
Yes, I refute the proposition because it is an alternate fact. Or
put another way - it is wrong.____
__ __
The true fact is simple - by virture of doing business in France,
ICANN is subject to French law. France's privacy authorities might,
for example, attempt to get ICANN to follow their right to be
forgotten. They would fail, I think, but that proposition is no
different in kind than the idea of US antitrust jurisdiction over
ICANN which will not change one iota if ICANN changes its
jurisdiction of incorporation. As I have said before, the only way
in which place of jurisdiction matters significantly (or to use your
words is of a "different order" is regarding law relating to
corporate incorporation and governance. As to that - e.g. the
implementation of ICANN's actual corporate governance - it would
change significantly if ICANN moved. But, as others have also
noted, the corporate law of California is vital to ICANN's current
structure.____
__ __
As for your question about my professional life it is amusing -
because that is indeed what I do for a living and I have, in fact,
given exactly that advice to German businesses with operations in
the United States. I tell them that if they want to avoid American
law (mostly law relating to cybersecurity) the only way to do so is
to avoid having a business presence in the US. If they want to
forgo the market completely they can do so to avoid American law.
But otherwise they cannot. And, I tell them the exact same thing
about French and Indian law as well. In short, I do this for a
living and yes, I say exactly the same thing to paying clients.____
__ __
It is not me who is "falsifying facts" Paraminder. You are making
assertions that have no actual basis in any law that I know of.
Repeatedly asserting them as "facts" does not make them so____
__ __
Paul____
__ __
Paul Rosenzweig____
paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com<mailto:paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com>
<mailto:paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com<mailto:paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com>>____
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VOIP: +1 (202) 738-1739<tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20738-1739> <tel:+1%20202-738-1739>____
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__ __
*From:*parminder [mailto:parminder at itforchange.net<mailto:parminder at itforchange.net>
<mailto:parminder at itforchange.net<mailto:parminder at itforchange.net>>]
*Sent:* Sunday, February 12, 2017 12:54 AM
*To:* Paul Rosenzweig <paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com<mailto:paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com>
<mailto:paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com<mailto:paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com>>>;
ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org<mailto:ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org> <mailto:ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org<mailto:ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org>>
*Subject:* Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] Blog post on ICANN's jurisdiction____
__ __
__ __
On Saturday 11 February 2017 10:54 PM, Paul Rosenzweig wrote:____
As we have repeatedly noted, the exact same thing is true of
ICANN's being subject to the laws of India, France and any other
place it does business. ____
Paul, and you have missed the repeated response that of course this
is not true (and you know it) -- the implication of jurisdiction of
incorporation of a body, and its impact on its working, is of a
completely different order than that of the jurisdictions where it
may merely conduct some business. Do you refute this proposition?
Would you in your professional life advice, say, a business
incorporated in Germany but with worldwide business footprint that
the application of German jurisdiction and laws on it -- and the
real life implications of such application -- is more or less the
same as application of jurisdiction and laws of all counties where
it may conduct any business at all? I look forward to a clear and
unambiguous response to this. Thanks.
If indeed we are to keep falsifying such basic facts, which everyone
knows well, and base our positions on that, there is no way we can
go anywhere with this sub group. We may as well close it up and let
the rapporteur write whatever report he may want to forward. No use
wasting time here in trying to "prove" and reprove and reprove basic
universally known legal and political facts.
____
Your persistence in arguing a strawman Paraminder puts me in
mind of Amartya Sen.____
A perceptive book he wrote, but also speaks of Indian humility and
self-deprecation... Wonder why no one ever wrote "The Hegemonic
American"...
parminder
____
____
Paul Rosenzweig____
paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com<mailto:paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com>
<mailto:paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com<mailto:paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com>>____
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VOIP: +1 (202) 738-1739<tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20738-1739> <tel:+1%20202-738-1739>____
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____
*From:*ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org<mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org>
<mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org<mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org>>
[mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org<mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org>
<mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org<mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org>>] *On Behalf Of
*parminder
*Sent:* Saturday, February 11, 2017 8:46 AM
*To:* ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org<mailto:ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org> <mailto:ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org<mailto:ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org>>
*Subject:* Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] Blog post on ICANN's
jurisdiction____
____
Nigel,____
Thanks for your views. One gets faced by two kinds of arguments
in favour of keeping the jurisdictional status quo -- which are
mutually exclusive.____
(1) ICANN is somehow not subject to the whole range of US law
and executive powers, as any other US organisations is - or at
least it is somehow felt that US law and executive power will
never apply itself over ICANN functioning. ____
(2) As you argue, ICANN is indeed subject to all US laws and
powers, which might indeed be applied over it as necessary, but
this is a good and a desirable thing. ____
As we have no move forward at all, we must do it in stages and
remove some arguments off the table which we can mutually agree
to be untenable. So can we now agree that the view (1) above is
simply untrue and naively held by those who forward it. ____
We can now move to (2). First of all, this means that indeed US
law and executive can impinge upon ICANN's policy implementation
whenever it feels it valid to do so in pursuance of legitimate
US public interest. Meaning, If ICANN makes a policy and does
its implementation which is not in-accordance with US law or
legitimate US executive will, they can "interfere" can cause
those actions to be rolled back on the pain of state's coercive
action. This can be for instance regarding how and what
medicines and health related activities are considered ok by the
concerned US regulator. (Similar examples can be thought of in
practically every sector). Are you with me till here, because I
think I am only making logical deduction over what you seem to
agree with?____
If so, this indeed establishes as a fact that US jurisdiction
can, as required, impinge upon (which seen from another vantage
is same as, interfere with) ICANN policies and policy
implementation.____
Which makes the entire exercise of our questionnaire seeking
whether it can so happen rather needless. It of course can. ____
Lets then not argue or fight over that terrain, where we have
this agreement, about how law and executive power operates vis a
vis organisations subject to their jurisdiction. ____
That brings us to another terrain - that, as you argue, and
others have here, that it is right, appropriate and needed that
US law and legitimate executive power impinges upon ICANN
functioning as and when required, becuase it is important to
subject everything to the rule of law (and in your and many
other people's views, ICANN can practically ONLY be subject to
rule of US's law).____
I am happy to discuss this part as long as we do not keep
drifting back to the earlier one whereby there really seems to
be an agreement among most of us that US law and legitimate
executive power can indeed impinge upon or "interfere with"
ICANN's policy or policy implementation work (even if many
consider such interference as being good for ICANN and public
interest) . ____
> of the country of (US) on ICANN is same with that of other
countries (including the ones hosting her regional hubs) because that is
what I think Paul may be implying here.
As a simple example is a Trump travel Ban and the OFAC stuff compared to
if a travel Ban is placed on Turkey where ICANN has a hub. The former
would have global effects on ICANN than the latter. I for one would be
glad if there can be immunity/exemption for ICANN(used in literary
terms) in such scenarios
Regards
Sent from my LG G4
Kindly excuse brevity and typos
On Feb 13, 2017 7:59 PM, "Paul Rosenzweig"
<paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com<mailto:paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com>
<mailto:paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com<mailto:paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com>>> wrote:
Yes, I refute the proposition because it is an alternate fact. Or
put another way - it is wrong.____
__ __
The true fact is simple - by virture of doing business in France,
ICANN is subject to French law. France's privacy authorities might,
for example, attempt to get ICANN to follow their right to be
forgotten. They would fail, I think, but that proposition is no
different in kind than the idea of US antitrust jurisdiction over
ICANN which will not change one iota if ICANN changes its
jurisdiction of incorporation. As I have said before, the only way
in which place of jurisdiction matters significantly (or to use your
words is of a "different order" is regarding law relating to
corporate incorporation and governance. As to that - e.g. the
implementation of ICANN's actual corporate governance - it would
change significantly if ICANN moved. But, as others have also
noted, the corporate law of California is vital to ICANN's current
structure.____
__ __
As for your question about my professional life it is amusing -
because that is indeed what I do for a living and I have, in fact,
given exactly that advice to German businesses with operations in
the United States. I tell them that if they want to avoid American
law (mostly law relating to cybersecurity) the only way to do so is
to avoid having a business presence in the US. If they want to
forgo the market completely they can do so to avoid American law.
But otherwise they cannot. And, I tell them the exact same thing
about French and Indian law as well. In short, I do this for a
living and yes, I say exactly the same thing to paying clients.____
__ __
It is not me who is "falsifying facts" Paraminder. You are making
assertions that have no actual basis in any law that I know of.
Repeatedly asserting them as "facts" does not make them so____
__ __
Paul____
__ __
Paul Rosenzweig____
paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com<mailto:paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com>
<mailto:paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com<mailto:paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com>>____
O: +1 (202) 547-0660<tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20547-0660> <tel:+1%20202-547-0660>____
M: +1 (202) 329-9650<tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20329-9650> <tel:+1%20202-329-9650>____
VOIP: +1 (202) 738-1739<tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20738-1739> <tel:+1%20202-738-1739>____
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My PGP Key:
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<https://keys.mailvelope.com/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9A830097CA066684<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__keys.mailvelope.com_pks_lookup-3Fop-3Dget-26search-3D0x9A830097CA066684&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=gBJP9BR7SmJmiYPTtMNTO5cs0-iDPOyGn0HBd1gGbLk&e=>>____
__ __
*From:*parminder [mailto:parminder at itforchange.net<mailto:parminder at itforchange.net>
<mailto:parminder at itforchange.net<mailto:parminder at itforchange.net>>]
*Sent:* Sunday, February 12, 2017 12:54 AM
*To:* Paul Rosenzweig <paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com<mailto:paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com>
<mailto:paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com<mailto:paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com>>>;
ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org<mailto:ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org> <mailto:ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org<mailto:ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org>>
*Subject:* Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] Blog post on ICANN's jurisdiction____
__ __
__ __
On Saturday 11 February 2017 10:54 PM, Paul Rosenzweig wrote:____
As we have repeatedly noted, the exact same thing is true of
ICANN's being subject to the laws of India, France and any other
place it does business. ____
Paul, and you have missed the repeated response that of course this
is not true (and you know it) -- the implication of jurisdiction of
incorporation of a body, and its impact on its working, is of a
completely different order than that of the jurisdictions where it
may merely conduct some business. Do you refute this proposition?
Would you in your professional life advice, say, a business
incorporated in Germany but with worldwide business footprint that
the application of German jurisdiction and laws on it -- and the
real life implications of such application -- is more or less the
same as application of jurisdiction and laws of all counties where
it may conduct any business at all? I look forward to a clear and
unambiguous response to this. Thanks.
If indeed we are to keep falsifying such basic facts, which everyone
knows well, and base our positions on that, there is no way we can
go anywhere with this sub group. We may as well close it up and let
the rapporteur write whatever report he may want to forward. No use
wasting time here in trying to "prove" and reprove and reprove basic
universally known legal and political facts.
____
Your persistence in arguing a strawman Paraminder puts me in
mind of Amartya Sen.____
A perceptive book he wrote, but also speaks of Indian humility and
self-deprecation... Wonder why no one ever wrote "The Hegemonic
American"...
parminder
____
____
Paul Rosenzweig____
paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com<mailto:paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com>
<mailto:paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com<mailto:paul.rosenzweig at redbranchconsulting.com>>____
O: +1 (202) 547-0660<tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20547-0660> <tel:+1%20202-547-0660>____
M: +1 (202) 329-9650<tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20329-9650> <tel:+1%20202-329-9650>____
VOIP: +1 (202) 738-1739<tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20738-1739> <tel:+1%20202-738-1739>____
www.redbranchconsulting.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.redbranchconsulting.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=SW0awN355LgKou0VH8FoTnUMVW3Ew72doP7GYG8HOWw&e=>
<http://www.redbranchconsulting.com/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.redbranchconsulting.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=1k6KNFdJzQIC6CkW4-cXYamlUd3hWDS-W8MchdaYxlg&e=>>____
My PGP Key:
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<https://keys.mailvelope.com/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9A830097CA066684<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__keys.mailvelope.com_pks_lookup-3Fop-3Dget-26search-3D0x9A830097CA066684&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=gBJP9BR7SmJmiYPTtMNTO5cs0-iDPOyGn0HBd1gGbLk&e=>>____
____
*From:*ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org<mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org>
<mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org<mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org>>
[mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org<mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org>
<mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org<mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces at icann.org>>] *On Behalf Of
*parminder
*Sent:* Saturday, February 11, 2017 8:46 AM
*To:* ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org<mailto:ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org> <mailto:ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org<mailto:ws2-jurisdiction at icann.org>>
*Subject:* Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] Blog post on ICANN's
jurisdiction____
____
Nigel,____
Thanks for your views. One gets faced by two kinds of arguments
in favour of keeping the jurisdictional status quo -- which are
mutually exclusive.____
(1) ICANN is somehow not subject to the whole range of US law
and executive powers, as any other US organisations is - or at
least it is somehow felt that US law and executive power will
never apply itself over ICANN functioning. ____
(2) As you argue, ICANN is indeed subject to all US laws and
powers, which might indeed be applied over it as necessary, but
this is a good and a desirable thing. ____
As we have no move forward at all, we must do it in stages and
remove some arguments off the table which we can mutually agree
to be untenable. So can we now agree that the view (1) above is
simply untrue and naively held by those who forward it. ____
We can now move to (2). First of all, this means that indeed US
law and executive can impinge upon ICANN's policy implementation
whenever it feels it valid to do so in pursuance of legitimate
US public interest. Meaning, If ICANN makes a policy and does
its implementation which is not in-accordance with US law or
legitimate US executive will, they can "interfere" can cause
those actions to be rolled back on the pain of state's coercive
action. This can be for instance regarding how and what
medicines and health related activities are considered ok by the
concerned US regulator. (Similar examples can be thought of in
practically every sector). Are you with me till here, because I
think I am only making logical deduction over what you seem to
agree with?____
If so, this indeed establishes as a fact that US jurisdiction
can, as required, impinge upon (which seen from another vantage
is same as, interfere with) ICANN policies and policy
implementation.____
Which makes the entire exercise of our questionnaire seeking
whether it can so happen rather needless. It of course can. ____
Lets then not argue or fight over that terrain, where we have
this agreement, about how law and executive power operates vis a
vis organisations subject to their jurisdiction. ____
That brings us to another terrain - that, as you argue, and
others have here, that it is right, appropriate and needed that
US law and legitimate executive power impinges upon ICANN
functioning as and when required, becuase it is important to
subject everything to the rule of law (and in your and many
other people's views, ICANN can practically ONLY be subject to
rule of US's law).____
I am happy to discuss this part as long as we do not keep
drifting back to the earlier one whereby there really seems to
be an agreement among most of us that US law and legitimate
executive power can indeed impinge upon or "interfere with"
ICANN's policy or policy implementation work (even if many
consider such interference as being good for ICANN and public
interest) . ____
Your only problem with immunity seem to come up with regard to
criminally fraudulent activities. You give the examples of IOC
and FIFA but I have not found they having any special criminal
immunities. I may not have looked up well, but did they? Were
they not finally raided by both Swiss and US authorities. On the
other hand there are many international organisations with legal
immunities that have been gooing great global public interest
work without corruption. Interpol hasnt started to take money to
make international warrants disappear, not, more humbly, the
International Fertilizers Development Centre, immunised under
the relevant US Act, and which enters into contracts worth
millions every years for globally distributed projects, has been
known to do so....
(FIFA and IOC become corrupt because of commercial thinking
completely overpowering public service ethics -- and if ICANN
becomes so it will also be ore likely becuase of this reason.
But et us not get distracted. )
And if indeed we are so concerned about ICANN's abuse of power
and possible frauds and corruption, we should have let a
stronger and more agile community accountability mechanism get
established, like the membership based one, and with lower
thresholds of triggering community action... That is where the
mistake was made, and can still be corrected down the line. Do
not throw the world at the mercy of US law and executive action
for this purpose, especially when it related to to an
infrastructure which today underpins almost every social system.
This is not just some sports. (No hurt intended to sports fans,
I being one.)
parminder
____
On Saturday 11 February 2017 02:16 PM, Nigel Roberts wrote:____
____
and innumerable others. In the circumstances, the real
waiver across all
sectors and laws would be seek immunity under the US
International
Organisations Immunity Act. Would you not prefer this
route? If not, why
so? ____
Because I do not want ICANN to have immunity.
I have been involved in this community since before it was
called 'ICANN', including the gTLD-MoU and the IFWP.
I have seen ICANN behave as an autocrat robber baron and
deprive people of their property.
Fortunately, we have made great strides since then.
Accountability work, between 2003 (in the case of ccTLDs) up
to last years' transition, as well as the fact that, both
staff and Board now have personal trust, that was totally
absent 15 years ago.
But both organisations and personnnel can change.
Institutional immunity leads to corruption. I do not want
ICANN to become a FIFA, or IOC.
And the recent .AFRICA case shows, the checks and balances
of the US judicial system appear to work reasonably well (I
personally remain uneasy about the covenant of immunity but
I expect you have no problem with that).
I trust this explains why some people - and I am one - may
have a diametrically opposed view to yours when it comes to
ICANN immunity.
_______________________________________________
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____
__ __
_______________________________________________
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Ws2-jurisdiction mailing list
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Your only problem with immunity seem to come up with regard to
criminally fraudulent activities. You give the examples of IOC
and FIFA but I have not found they having any special criminal
immunities. I may not have looked up well, but did they? Were
they not finally raided by both Swiss and US authorities. On the
other hand there are many international organisations with legal
immunities that have been gooing great global public interest
work without corruption. Interpol hasnt started to take money to
make international warrants disappear, not, more humbly, the
International Fertilizers Development Centre, immunised under
the relevant US Act, and which enters into contracts worth
millions every years for globally distributed projects, has been
known to do so....
(FIFA and IOC become corrupt because of commercial thinking
completely overpowering public service ethics -- and if ICANN
becomes so it will also be ore likely becuase of this reason.
But et us not get distracted. )
And if indeed we are so concerned about ICANN's abuse of power
and possible frauds and corruption, we should have let a
stronger and more agile community accountability mechanism get
established, like the membership based one, and with lower
thresholds of triggering community action... That is where the
mistake was made, and can still be corrected down the line. Do
not throw the world at the mercy of US law and executive action
for this purpose, especially when it related to to an
infrastructure which today underpins almost every social system.
This is not just some sports. (No hurt intended to sports fans,
I being one.)
parminder
____
On Saturday 11 February 2017 02:16 PM, Nigel Roberts wrote:____
____
and innumerable others. In the circumstances, the real
waiver across all
sectors and laws would be seek immunity under the US
International
Organisations Immunity Act. Would you not prefer this
route? If not, why
so? ____
Because I do not want ICANN to have immunity.
I have been involved in this community since before it was
called 'ICANN', including the gTLD-MoU and the IFWP.
I have seen ICANN behave as an autocrat robber baron and
deprive people of their property.
Fortunately, we have made great strides since then.
Accountability work, between 2003 (in the case of ccTLDs) up
to last years' transition, as well as the fact that, both
staff and Board now have personal trust, that was totally
absent 15 years ago.
But both organisations and personnnel can change.
Institutional immunity leads to corruption. I do not want
ICANN to become a FIFA, or IOC.
And the recent .AFRICA case shows, the checks and balances
of the US judicial system appear to work reasonably well (I
personally remain uneasy about the covenant of immunity but
I expect you have no problem with that).
I trust this explains why some people - and I am one - may
have a diametrically opposed view to yours when it comes to
ICANN immunity.
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--
Greg Shatan
C: 917-816-6428
S: gsshatan
Phone-to-Skype: 646-845-9428
gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>
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