<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Parminder,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Your public law Wikipedia article cites only constitutional law, administrative law, criminal law (and perhaps tax law and procedural law) as being part of public law. Is that what you mean? I also note that this describes civil law as follows; "<span style="color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:22.4px">This differs from civil law in that civil actions are disputes between two parties that are not of significant public concern." This is clearly not true in common law countries, where civil law cases form precedent that can have significant public impacts.</span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:22.4px"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:22.4px">Your private law wikipedia quote only refers to a civil law legal system. The article (really, a stub) goes on to say "</span><span style="color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:22.4px">The concept of private law in common law countries is a little more broad, in that it also encompasses private relationships between governments and private individuals or other entities. That is, relationships between governments and individuals based on the law of contract or torts are governed by private law, and are not considered to be within the scope of public law.</span><span style="color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:22.4px">"</span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:22.4px"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:22.4px">I'm still not sure how this dichotomy applies here.</span></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 11:44 AM, parminder <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><span class="">
<br>
<div class="m_1647393036188771912moz-cite-prefix">On Tuesday 11 October 2016 08:49 PM,
Jeff Neuman wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="m_1647393036188771912WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="m_1647393036188771912__MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Although
I am a properly licensed attorney in the United States, I
am not clear on what the definition is of “public law” vs.
private law. That is not a concept that I am familiar
with. Are talking about statutory law vs. common law, or
are we talking about private causes of action vs.
government causes of action.<u></u><u></u></span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Sorry,
but just trying to wrap my head around this and why it
matters.</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
Taking the simple descriptions most easily at hand ..<br>
<p><font size="+1"><b>"Private law</b> is that part of a <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_law_%28legal_system%29" title="Civil law (legal system)" target="_blank">civil law</a> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_system" class="m_1647393036188771912mw-redirect" title="Legal system" target="_blank">legal system</a>
which is part of the <i><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_commune" title="Jus
commune" target="_blank">jus commune</a></i> that involves relationships
between individuals, such as the law of <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract" title="Contract" target="_blank">contracts</a>
or <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tort" title="Tort" target="_blank">torts</a><sup id="m_1647393036188771912cite_ref-Mattei_1-0" class="m_1647393036188771912reference"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_law#cite_note-Mattei-1" target="_blank">[1]
</a></sup></font>" <br>
</p>
<a class="m_1647393036188771912moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_law" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/<wbr>Private_law</a><br>
<br>
<b>"Public law</b> (lat. <i>ius publicum</i>) is that part of <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law" title="Law" target="_blank">law</a> which
governs relationships between individuals and the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government" title="Government" target="_blank">government</a>,
and those relationships between individuals which are of direct
concern to <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society" title="Society" target="_blank">society</a>.<sup id="m_1647393036188771912cite_ref-oxdic_1-0" class="m_1647393036188771912reference"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_law#cite_note-oxdic-1" target="_blank">[1]
"</a></sup><br>
<a class="m_1647393036188771912moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_law" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/<wbr>Public_law</a><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
parminder</font></span><div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="m_1647393036188771912WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#0f9347" lang="EN-GB">Jeffrey J. Neuman</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang="EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#0f9347" lang="EN-GB">Senior Vice President </span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#4f4f4f" lang="EN-GB">|</span><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#c39209" lang="EN-GB">Valideus USA</span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#c32830" lang="EN-GB">
</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#4f4f4f" lang="EN-GB">| </span><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#c32830" lang="EN-GB">Com Laude USA</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang="EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#4f4f4f" lang="EN-GB">1751 Pinnacle Drive, Suite 600<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#4f4f4f" lang="EN-GB">Mclean, VA 22102, United States<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#4f4f4f" lang="EN-GB">E:
</span><a href="mailto:jeff.neuman@valideus.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#00b050" lang="EN-GB">jeff.neuman@valideus.com</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#595959" lang="EN-GB"> or </span><a href="mailto:jeff.neuman@comlaude.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#00b050" lang="EN-GB">jeff.neuman@comlaude.com</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#00b050" lang="EN-GB">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#4f4f4f" lang="EN-GB">T: <a href="tel:%2B1.703.635.7514" value="+17036357514" target="_blank">+1.703.635.7514</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#4f4f4f" lang="EN-GB">M: <a href="tel:%2B1.202.549.5079" value="+12025495079" target="_blank">+1.202.549.5079</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#4f4f4f" lang="EN-GB">@Jintlaw<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">
<a class="m_1647393036188771912moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@<wbr>icann.org</a>
[<a class="m_1647393036188771912moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-<wbr>bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mueller, Milton L<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 11, 2016 10:51 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> parminder <a class="m_1647393036188771912moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank"><parminder@itforchange.net></a>;
<a class="m_1647393036188771912moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org" target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] Our work so far,
and a way forward<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I
don’t think the question of public law is out of
consideration. There is much talk of “applicable [public]
law” when we consider dispute resolution/choice of law, for
example. However, it is not clear how those issues fit into
the “jurisdiction layer” model that seems to be clarifying
and driving our agenda. So I hope Greg and Vinay can weigh
in on that issue for us.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">If
I understand you correctly, public law issues are analogous
to a “stress test;” there is no major issue with it now, but
we need to explore how the new ICANN regime will react if
something happens. E.g., the European Commission opens an
antitrust investigation into ICANN, or a (unlikely) Trump
administration pushes a bill through Congress re-regulating
ICANN<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">
<a href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@<wbr>icann.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-<wbr>bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>parminder<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 11, 2016 3:59 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org" target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] Our work so
far, and a way forward<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Monday 10 October 2016 10:28 AM,
Greg Shatan wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">All,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">In
order to move forward, and based on the discussions
so far, I suggest the following approach.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">First,
we should continue the current approach of defining
and refining the various layers of jurisdiction, and
I encourage you all to go to the Google doc and add
your views. </span><a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oE9xDIAJhr4Nx7vNO_mWotSXuUtTgJMRs6U92yTgOH4/edit?usp=sharing" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">https://docs.google.com/<wbr>document/d/1oE9xDIAJhr4Nx7vNO_<wbr>mWotSXuUtTgJMRs6U92yTgOH4/<wbr>edit?usp=sharing</span></a><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Second,
we won't investigate changing ICANN's headquarters
or incorporation jurisdiction at this time.
However, it's not off the table -- if we identify an
issue during our work and we can't find a less
drastic way to deal with that issue, we will revisit
this point at that time. We can then revisit the
concerns that people have raised regarding such a
recommendation in the context of a particular issue.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
While I can always insert this in the Google doc, I prefer
to first discuss this here. (And yes I am repeating it.) The
jurisdiction issue is best divided as (1) application of
public law, (2) application of private law, (3) the rest of
sundry stuff - like about different global offices and
interaction with respective domestic jurisdiction (these are
of relatively minor significance, and there may not be much
to 'decide' about them in advance)<br>
<br>
Place of incorporation and location of HQ (which is almost
always the same) may be the proxy for 'application of public
law' but they do not necessarily conflate. US government by
decree has given jurisdictional immunities even to such
bodies that are *not* created under international law and
simply registered as private bodies, in the US or elsewhere.
This certainly is an important possibility to look into for
ICANN, which insulates it from application of US public law
- in terms of its key organisational activities -- without
moving the headquarters or even jurisdiction of
incorporation. <br>
<br>
I will repeat the question I put to the chairs in my last
email: "<span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">are we
considering this issue of application of US public law to
ICANN, and the problems that it may cause with respect to
its policy processes, and being able to appropriately
carry out its global governance role? " <br>
<br>
The concerns around application of public law are very
different than those of application of private law -- and
often different actors have these two different kinds of
concerns. Public law also have application over private
law cases.
<br>
<br>
If this group does not intend to get into the 'application
of public law' question and stick to issues of private
law, then let it decide and state as much in clear terms.
Such actors whose interest in the jurisdiction question
comes primarily from the public law aspect can then
disengage from spending further time in this process - as
for instance I will like to do.
<br>
<br>
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Third,
we should put aside "confirming and assessing the
gap analysis" for the moment. There is still a
diversity of views on what this "gap analysis" was
and what we need to do to confirm and assess it. As
a result, our time has been spent discussing the
parameters of the assignment, rather than working on
the assignment itself. I believe that we will be
better able to define the scope of this item and
move to substance, if we spend some time looking at
the substance of an issue that is clearly within our
scope.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">After
we finish clarifying the multiple layers of
jurisdiction, we should move to an issue that is
clearly within our scope -- something we have to
do. That way we can move to the substance of the
issue and not spend a lot of time on "scope."<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">An
issue that is clearly within our scope relates to
ICANN's jurisdictions for settlement of
disputes (i.e., venue and choice of law).
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
One way is to look at this is as concerning the application
of private law on iCANN matters. But then, like in the case
of .xxx, what if the dispute invokes a public law (US
competition law in this instance) -- which one can be
assured that every disputant will do as long as it can find
a favourable US public law which seems to side with the way
the disputant wants things to go. As we explore the issue of
'settlement of disputes' are we going to look only to
private law part and not public law? That IMHO would be
quite inappropriate. But then if we are going to look into
both private law and public law elements, the discussion
gets messy because private law can involve choice of
jurisdiction but not public law. This is why I think it is
best if we divide our work and discussions as I suggested
above, separately about issues of public law and those of
private law.
<br>
<br>
But, as I said before, issues of public law are simply out,
let us then be clear about it. I request a clarification by
the chairs.
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">There
should not be any question that this is within the
scope of our group (Annex 12 refers to this as the
"focus" for our group). Based on Annex 12, this
involves looking at: "The influence that ICANN’s
existing jurisdiction" relating to resolution of
disputes "may have on the actual operation of
policies
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
Application of US public law on ICANN has enormous influence
on 'actual operation of (ICANN) policies'. And so we are
very much within our mandate in discussing issues arising
from 'public law' aspect.
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">and
accountability mechanisms." I suggest that we
examine this "influence" and determine what this
"influence" is. Our work looking at venue and
choice of law in the "multiple layers of
jurisdiction" will help us in this task.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
I gave a few instances in my last email of influence of US
public law on operation of ICANN policies. Would these
examples qualify to be considered under this or not?<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">A
note on process -- it is very important that we
focus on creating written material. In our calls, we
should be working on and working from these written
materials. Ultimately, these writings will feed into
our deliverable. Put another way, you should focus
your contributions on adding to the drafts
(currently, the "layers of jurisdiction" document),
rather than on relying solely on oral interventions
in our calls -- after all we have 168 hours in a
week, and only 1 hour for our call.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
I agree. Calls can only help confirm or resolve some
outstanding issues, and lay further directions. What we can
accomplish in writing we should do. In that regard, I also
think that to th extent issues can be addressed and resolved
in email exchanges here they best be done so...<br>
<br>
Thanks, parminder <br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">I
look forward to our upcoming call.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><br>
Best regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Greg
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Ws2-jurisdiction mailing list<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org" target="_blank">Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ws2-jurisdiction" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/ws2-jurisdiction</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div></div></div>
<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Ws2-jurisdiction mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org">Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a><br>
<a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ws2-jurisdiction" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/ws2-jurisdiction</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>