<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">I echo Jeff's question.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Milton's definition is one possible one, but I'm not sure that is what Parminder means. I agree that Milton's tracks my general understanding of how those terms might be used in a U.S. common law context. All US legislation is considered "Public Law".</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="verdana, sans-serif">However, five minutes of Google</font><font face="times new roman, serif" size="1"> </font><font face="verdana, sans-serif">searching reveals significantly different uses. It appears that in Civil law, stemming from Roman law, the terms are used define (i) laws governing the activities of the state and the interaction between the state and the individual or private entity vs. laws governing the activities of individuals/private entities and their interaction with each other.</font></div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="verdana, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="verdana, sans-serif">In International law, "international public law" governs the actions of nations (but may in the case of treaties be turned into laws that govern the actions of individuals), while "international private law" applies directly to the acts of individuals and business entities.</font></div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="verdana, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="verdana, sans-serif">There also appears to be a usage of these two terms based on how the laws are enforced -- a public law is one enforced by the state, while a private law is enforced by one individual/entity against another. However, there are many laws (at least in the US) that offer both state and private causes of action (e.g., both Department of Justice or a private plaintiff can bring a claim under the Americans with Disabilities Act). While criminal laws can only be enforced by the State (on behalf of the People), many criminal laws have civil law counterparts (e.g., murder/manslaughter vs. wrongful death, theft vs. conversion, etc. Broadly, Tort law is a series of private causes of action that are roughly equivalent with criminal causes of action); of course, imprisonment is exclusively a criminal law remedy (at least in the US). There are also concepts (such as Qui Tam and Article 78 proceedings) where state action can either be started or challenged by private actors under certain circumstances; these further blur the public/private distinction in this system of classification..</font></div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="verdana, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div class="gmail_default"><font face="verdana, sans-serif">Finally, looking at various items found in the search, it appears that there are some countries (both civil and common law jurisdictions) where this classification is actively used, and others where it is not. So it is neither universal, nor understood the same way when it is used.</font></div><font face="verdana, sans-serif"><a name="_GoBack"></a></font><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><b>Parminder, Can you clarify what you mean by "public law" and "private law"? Without a better understanding, it would be premature to answer your question. Alternatively, you could rephrase this without reliance on a public law/private law dichotomy. Thanks!</b></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><b><br></b></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Greg</div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 11:21 AM, Mueller, Milton L <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:milton@gatech.edu" target="_blank">milton@gatech.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Public law is legislation/court precedent, private law is contract.
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"> Jeff Neuman [mailto:<a href="mailto:jeff.neuman@comlaude.com" target="_blank">jeff.neuman@comlaude.<wbr>com</a>]
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<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 11, 2016 11:20 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mueller, Milton L <<a href="mailto:milton@gatech.edu" target="_blank">milton@gatech.edu</a>>; parminder <<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>>; <a href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org" target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Ws2-jurisdiction] Our work so far, and a way forward<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="m_-6986821756689306673__MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Although I am a properly licensed attorney in the United States, I am not clear on what the definition is of “public law” vs. private
law. That is not a concept that I am familiar with. Are talking about statutory law vs. common law, or are we talking about private causes of action vs. government causes of action.</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Sorry, but just trying to wrap my head around this and why it matters.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#0f9347">Jeffrey J. Neuman</span></b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#0f9347">Senior Vice President </span></b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#4f4f4f">|</span><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#c39209">Valideus
USA</span></b><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#c32830">
</span></b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#4f4f4f">| </span><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#c32830">Com Laude USA</span></b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#4f4f4f">1751 Pinnacle Drive, Suite 600<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#4f4f4f">Mclean, VA 22102, United States<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#4f4f4f">E:
</span><a href="mailto:jeff.neuman@valideus.com" target="_blank"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#00b050">jeff.neuman@valideus.com</span></a><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#595959">
or </span><a href="mailto:jeff.neuman@comlaude.com" target="_blank"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#00b050">jeff.neuman@comlaude.com</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#00b050">
<span lang="EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#4f4f4f">T: <a href="tel:%2B1.703.635.7514" value="+17036357514" target="_blank">+1.703.635.7514</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#4f4f4f">M: <a href="tel:%2B1.202.549.5079" value="+12025495079" target="_blank">+1.202.549.5079</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#4f4f4f">@Jintlaw<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">
<a href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@<wbr>icann.org</a> [<a href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-<wbr>bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mueller, Milton L<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 11, 2016 10:51 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> parminder <<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>>;
<a href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org" target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] Our work so far, and a way forward<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I don’t think the question of public law is out of consideration. There is much talk of “applicable [public] law” when we consider dispute resolution/choice of
law, for example. However, it is not clear how those issues fit into the “jurisdiction layer” model that seems to be clarifying and driving our agenda. So I hope Greg and Vinay can weigh in on that issue for us.
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">If I understand you correctly, public law issues are analogous to a “stress test;” there is no major issue with it now, but we need to explore how the new ICANN
regime will react if something happens. E.g., the European Commission opens an antitrust investigation into ICANN, or a (unlikely) Trump administration pushes a bill through Congress re-regulating ICANN<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">
<a href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@<wbr>icann.org</a> [<a href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-<wbr>bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>parminder<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 11, 2016 3:59 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org" target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] Our work so far, and a way forward<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Monday 10 October 2016 10:28 AM, Greg Shatan wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">All,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">In order to move forward, and based on the discussions so far, I suggest the following approach.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">First, we should continue the current approach of defining and refining the various layers of jurisdiction, and I encourage you all to go to the Google doc and add your views. </span><a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oE9xDIAJhr4Nx7vNO_mWotSXuUtTgJMRs6U92yTgOH4/edit?usp=sharing" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">https://docs.google.com/<wbr>document/d/1oE9xDIAJhr4Nx7vNO_<wbr>mWotSXuUtTgJMRs6U92yTgOH4/<wbr>edit?usp=sharing</span></a><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Second, we won't investigate changing ICANN's headquarters or incorporation jurisdiction at this time. However, it's not off the table -- if we identify an issue during our work and we can't
find a less drastic way to deal with that issue, we will revisit this point at that time. We can then revisit the concerns that people have raised regarding such a recommendation in the context of a particular issue.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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While I can always insert this in the Google doc, I prefer to first discuss this here. (And yes I am repeating it.) The jurisdiction issue is best divided as (1) application of public law, (2) application of private law, (3) the rest of sundry stuff - like
about different global offices and interaction with respective domestic jurisdiction (these are of relatively minor significance, and there may not be much to 'decide' about them in advance)<br>
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Place of incorporation and location of HQ (which is almost always the same) may be the proxy for 'application of public law' but they do not necessarily conflate. US government by decree has given jurisdictional immunities even to such bodies that are *not*
created under international law and simply registered as private bodies, in the US or elsewhere. This certainly is an important possibility to look into for ICANN, which insulates it from application of US public law - in terms of its key organisational activities
-- without moving the headquarters or even jurisdiction of incorporation. <br>
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I will repeat the question I put to the chairs in my last email: "<span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">are we considering this issue of application of US public law to ICANN, and the problems that it may cause with respect to its policy processes,
and being able to appropriately carry out its global governance role? " <br>
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The concerns around application of public law are very different than those of application of private law -- and often different actors have these two different kinds of concerns. Public law also have application over private law cases.
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If this group does not intend to get into the 'application of public law' question and stick to issues of private law, then let it decide and state as much in clear terms. Such actors whose interest in the jurisdiction question comes primarily from the public
law aspect can then disengage from spending further time in this process - as for instance I will like to do.
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Third, we should put aside "confirming and assessing the gap analysis" for the moment. There is still a diversity of views on what this "gap analysis" was and what we need to do to confirm
and assess it. As a result, our time has been spent discussing the parameters of the assignment, rather than working on the assignment itself. I believe that we will be better able to define the scope of this item and move to substance, if we spend some
time looking at the substance of an issue that is clearly within our scope.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">After we finish clarifying the multiple layers of jurisdiction, we should move to an issue that is clearly within our scope -- something we have to do. That way we can move to the substance
of the issue and not spend a lot of time on "scope."<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">An issue that is clearly within our scope relates to ICANN's jurisdictions for settlement of disputes (i.e., venue and choice of law).
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One way is to look at this is as concerning the application of private law on iCANN matters. But then, like in the case of .xxx, what if the dispute invokes a public law (US competition law in this instance) -- which one can be assured that every disputant
will do as long as it can find a favourable US public law which seems to side with the way the disputant wants things to go. As we explore the issue of 'settlement of disputes' are we going to look only to private law part and not public law? That IMHO would
be quite inappropriate. But then if we are going to look into both private law and public law elements, the discussion gets messy because private law can involve choice of jurisdiction but not public law. This is why I think it is best if we divide our work
and discussions as I suggested above, separately about issues of public law and those of private law.
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But, as I said before, issues of public law are simply out, let us then be clear about it. I request a clarification by the chairs.
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">There should not be any question that this is within the scope of our group (Annex 12 refers to this as the "focus" for our group). Based on Annex 12, this involves looking at: "The influence
that ICANN’s existing jurisdiction" relating to resolution of disputes "may have on the actual operation of policies
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Application of US public law on ICANN has enormous influence on 'actual operation of (ICANN) policies'. And so we are very much within our mandate in discussing issues arising from 'public law' aspect.
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">and accountability mechanisms." I suggest that we examine this "influence" and determine what this "influence" is. Our work looking at venue and choice of law in the "multiple layers of jurisdiction"
will help us in this task.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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I gave a few instances in my last email of influence of US public law on operation of ICANN policies. Would these examples qualify to be considered under this or not?<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">A note on process -- it is very important that we focus on creating written material. In our calls, we should be working on and working from these written materials. Ultimately, these writings
will feed into our deliverable. Put another way, you should focus your contributions on adding to the drafts (currently, the "layers of jurisdiction" document), rather than on relying solely on oral interventions in our calls -- after all we have 168 hours
in a week, and only 1 hour for our call.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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I agree. Calls can only help confirm or resolve some outstanding issues, and lay further directions. What we can accomplish in writing we should do. In that regard, I also think that to th extent issues can be addressed and resolved in email exchanges here
they best be done so...<br>
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Thanks, parminder <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">I look forward to our upcoming call.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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Best regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Greg </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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