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<p><font size="+1">An important scenario that I forgot to list
earlier, though I have been discussing it variously, is as
follows:</font></p>
<p><font size="+1">US customs has, over the years, been very active
seizing domain names of business they see as offending US
intellectual property law,, even for businesses that mostly
operated outside of the US. And since most businesses have been
.com they went to .com registry to effect these seizures -
.rojadirecta is a well known case. <br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="+1">What happens when many global businesses take up
gTLDs in their names - and I keep giving the hypothetical
example of an Indian generic drug company, Generic Drugs, with a
hypothetical gTLD .genericdrugs ... A gTLD can only be seized by
ICANN, and I see no reason that US customs will no similarly
force ICANN to do what they were previously getting done through
Verisign. (If you dont think so, please show me reason/
justification.) In the circumstances, Generic Drugs, <br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="+1">(1) should either not take a gTLD, which is a
denial of its right to leverage the global DNS as other global
businesses are doing, and thus not acceptable, <br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="+1">or</font></p>
<p><font size="+1">(2) it should begin observing US laws even with
regard to its </font><font size="+1">global and national
business </font><font size="+1">outside the US (where US
companies may be in competition with it), which is even less
acceptable as US's continued jurisdiction over ICANN gets used
to extend US laws globally (something already being done by many
other means, and strongly resented globally) <br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="+1">I took an drugs company example, but it could be
a company in any other area, as all sectors get networked,
digitalised, data-fied, and so on, and therefore their digital
avatar, space and digital space signifiers (domain names) become
central to their businesses. It could be an education company --
say a company that provides digital books to visually disabled.
A global treaty recently got signed on this issue with against
much resistance from the US, and it is still to be ratifed by
the US and there are many powerful voices inside the US opposed
to such ratification. Would such a company have to ever remain
on tenterhooks about what US gov could do to its gTLD? This is
how power really operates - it does not always have to act out,
its presence is enough, and such thingd would see US excercise
illegitimate political power over the whole world.<br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="+1">It could be an increasingly digitised/ data-fied
media company, an agriculture company, a transport company --
anyone!!</font></p>
<p><font size="+1">Do these issues appear trivial to anyone? If not,
what is their resolution?</font></p>
<p><font size="+1">parminder </font><br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Sunday 16 October 2016 11:24 AM,
parminder wrote:<br>
</div>
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cite="mid:2a471874-4cc6-5822-a71a-3850559ed51c@itforchange.net"
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<p><font face="Verdana">Milton,</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">Thanks for your engagement with these
issues</font><font face="Verdana"> . Some responses below. <br>
</font></p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Tuesday 11 October 2016 10:21 PM,
Mueller, Milton L wrote:<br>
</div>
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">1.<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span><!--[endif]-->What
happens if the concerned US court holds .xxx to be
against US's competition law? Describe the steps that will
follow, and how can ICANN avoid bending its policy making
process and authority to the will of the US state.<span
style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%"><span
style="color:windowtext">MM: I don’t think that’s a
problem for ICANN. It’s a problem for the entity that
was delegated .XXX. Since XXX holds a tiny sliver of
the domain name market, even in the porn space, this
is a very remote risk.</span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Is there not problem even if .xxx was not a US company owned,
which has no reason to like/ accept being governed by US laws?
Milton, when we frame regimes for rule of law, and of justice, we
do not say, well that is small fry, a small 'sliver of the
market', rules and justice has to be the same for all - small or
big. It is a question of principle -- can US law force ICANN
polices, or their operationalisation ? If they can, as you seem to
agree here, it is problem that we must find a solution to.<br>
<br>
Annex 12 says "At this point in the CCWG-Accountability’s work,
the main issues that need to be investigated within Work Stream 2
relate to the influence that I<i><b>CANN ́s existing jurisdiction
may have on the actual operation of policies </b></i>and
accountability mechanisms." (emphasis added)<br>
<br>
This is directly an issue where ICANN's existing jurisdiction has
influence on actual operation of its policies -- in this case its
policies under which .xxx was delegated. <br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:SN2PR0701MB73308F589D6B4065BFEB83AA1DA0@SN2PR0701MB733.namprd07.prod.outlook.com"
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%"><span
style="color:windowtext"><o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">2.<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span><!--[endif]-->Same
about .africa.<span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%"><span
style="color:windowtext">Same response.<br>
</span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Same response from me as well - other than that here, unlike for
.xxx, those who claim the gTLD, and thus will be affected by an
adverse decision of the US court, are parties not belonging to the
US and thus should not be dictated to by US courts. <br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:SN2PR0701MB73308F589D6B4065BFEB83AA1DA0@SN2PR0701MB733.namprd07.prod.outlook.com"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%"><span
style="color:windowtext"><o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">3.<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span><!--[endif]-->With
100s of new gTLDs getting operational, many of them
private closed ones with generic names (but that is hardly
the only issue, there could be many others), is it not
obvious that we will be seeing many court cases around
them... What would ICANN do the moment an adverse
judgement comes?<span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%"><span
style="color:windowtext">See above. Not an issue for
ICANN. Most of these court cases are between private
parties, but even regulations or antitrust actions
would be directed against the holder of the gTLD, not
ICANN. Only if ICANN itself were accused of fostering
a monopoly would it be the target of such litigation.
</span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Again, you seem to be fully unaffected by how global parties -
companies, and people - who expect ICANN to be a global governance
body and thus do thing just-fully, and they able to partake
equally of the rights and benefits of a global domain name
governance systems are unable to fulfil this legitimate, and
democratic, expectation. If this means nothing to you, and only
such actions that directly affect ICANN's organisation etc are
meaningful, I have not much more to say here... My principal case
is of how ICANN's current jurisdiction affects the global DNS, its
governance, its legitimacy, justfullness, etc -- and not just now
it affects ICANN's organisation.<br>
<br>
Perhaps lets separate these two issues then, treat them
separately. (1), impact of ICANN jurisdiction on ICANN's
organisation, (2) its impact on ICANN governance and operation of
global DNS, including allocation of gTLDs/ ccTLDs, and managing
the relationship with them. <br>
<br>
For the me (2) is by far more important, but if (1) is your focus,
we can consider them both, separately. <br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:SN2PR0701MB73308F589D6B4065BFEB83AA1DA0@SN2PR0701MB733.namprd07.prod.outlook.com"
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style="color:windowtext"><o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"><br>
4. What if OFAC doesn’t give licence to ICANN for dealing
with a particular country due to great deterioration of
relationships with the US.<br>
<br>
<span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Now,
you have hit on a real issue. I believe however that
NTIA has taken some precautions here, but I don’t recall
what they are. </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
NTIA's 'precautions' - even more so, the unrecollected ones :) -
are meaningless for non US people/ businesses who really are
looking to get out of NTIA's 'protection' - isnt that all this
oversight transition is supposed to be about ? <br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:SN2PR0701MB73308F589D6B4065BFEB83AA1DA0@SN2PR0701MB733.namprd07.prod.outlook.com"
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style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"><br>
5. What if the FCC revises its decision of forbearance
about its authority over Internet addressing system (as it
did on the issue of whether Internet was title one or
title two)?<span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">MM:
This would require legislation, because nothing in the
existing Communications Act gives the FCC any authority
over DNS or IP addressing. So this is just another
example of “what if the US legislates to regulate ICANN
in some way?” Which of course is a risk if ICANN were in
ANY jurisdiction. </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
This is not true -- in the same way as, without any new
legislation, FCC revised its stand on forbearance over seeing
Internet as a telecom utility, and made it title 2. 'Forbearance'
has this legal meaning of legal authority being there but not
being exercised -- FCC's chair has clearly used the term 'forbear'
in recent utterances about FCC's authority over Internet
addresses. And in any case, what if as you say such a thing will
require a legislation from the US legislature -- that is no
comfort to non USians/ <br>
<br>
<blockquote
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<p class="MsoListParagraph"><br>
6. There are almost as many US agencies that can exercise
mandate over ICANN's domain name policies as there are
sectors that the Internet and thus its naming system
impacts. (ICANN allowed some 'regulatory policies' to
buyers of .pharmacy, and going forward as it also does
this with many other sectoral domain names, all of these
can be challenged, in the courts, as well as with sectoral
regulatory bodies). What then?<span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">MM:
These dangers are greatly diminished post-transition. </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I see now way how the danger of any US executive authority
exercising mandate over ICANN have diminished post transition
other than your word for it..... And then I do not want them
diminished (even that they havent), I want them extinguished.
Statutory US bodies need to and will do whatever they can to
further their policies and law, and would order any US body
accordingly - nothing has changed, one may just be imagining that
it has. <br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:SN2PR0701MB73308F589D6B4065BFEB83AA1DA0@SN2PR0701MB733.namprd07.prod.outlook.com"
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<p class="MsoListParagraph"><br>
If you even begin trying to deal with these questions, you
will realise what a volcanic earth we are sitting upon, in
refusing to see the public law jurisdiction issue.<span
style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">MM:
Don’t agree we are sitting on a volcano, but do agree
there are issues that need to be anticipated, a kind of
“stress test”</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Yes, thanks, exactly that. We need to follow through each of these
scenarios to possible logical conclusions - looking at all
plausible ways they can go.<br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<br>
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<o:p></o:p></p>
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