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    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Monday 17 October 2016 10:49 AM,
      Schweighofer Erich wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:74593DF2C67DFB449A43BD450E08E07ED70DD90A@EXDB4.d.univie.ac.at"
      type="cite">
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Good
            clarification.
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-GB">Please add to „constraints on free choice in
            private law“: Many countries (e.g. EU legislation, Lugano
            Convention) restrict choice of law and forum in favour of
            consumers. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-GB">Best, Erich Schweighofer
          </span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Yes, so also in most other countries... Therefore not only is it of
    prime importance in our discussions on jurisdiction to distinguish
    between public law - where no choice of jurisdiction is available --
    and private law -- where such choice 'may' in certain cases be
    available, it is also important to understand and highlight that
    public law can trounce private law. And so while ICANN and a
    contracting party may choose a certain jurisdiction of application
    on matters of contract between them, US public law (where ICANN is
    located and incorporated) may still come in and decide that certain
    matters of the contract attract public law application, and
    intervene accordingly. <br>
    parminder <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:74593DF2C67DFB449A43BD450E08E07ED70DD90A@EXDB4.d.univie.ac.at"
      type="cite">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                  lang="DE">Von:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                lang="DE"> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org">ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a>
                [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org">mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a>] <b>Im
                  Auftrag von </b>parminder<br>
                <b>Gesendet:</b> Montag, 17. Oktober 2016 07:14<br>
                <b>An:</b> Kavouss Arasteh<br>
                <b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org">ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a><br>
                <b>Betreff:</b> Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] Our work so far,
                and a way forward<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">On Sunday 16 October 2016 07:08 PM,
            Kavouss Arasteh wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">Dear Parminder<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">Thank you very much for the message.<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">You said for public law<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><em><span
                    style="font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">"in
                    the application of public law there is no choice of
                    jurisdiction available to the parties, and they are
                    subject the jurisdiction of the state where
                  </span></em><em><span
                    style="font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:red">they
                    are
                  </span></em><em><span
                    style="font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">located"</span></em><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><em><span
                    style="font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">What
                    do you mean by  "</span></em><em><span
                    style="font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:red">
                    they" who are they ? both parties, one party ?</span></em><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                  style="font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">You
                  also said
                </span><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><em><span
                    style="font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">"in
                    the application of private law, often though not
                    always a choice of jurisdiction is available to the
                    parties, especially as and if previously agreed to."
                  </span></em><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                  style="font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">It
                  is not clear what you were to say, your statement is
                  unfortunately vagueas</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                  style="font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">May
                  you put it differently</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                  style="font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Kavouss
                </span>
                <o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
          Sure, Kavouss. I agree I could have been clearer. <br>
          <br>
          Public law concerns issues between the society and one or more
          individuals. The society is legally represented by the state,
          and so in public law case/ dispute, this one side is fixed and
          cannot be changed. Any party(one or more) that gets involved
          in a public law dispute has no choice of jurisdiction, and the
          jurisdiction where this party (or parties if there is more
          than one) is located, and is a part of the wider society, will
          apply.
          <br>
          <br>
          So, in case of public law, there is no choice of jurisdiction,
          jurisdiction of the place where a party (or parties) is
          located/ incorporated will apply.
          <br>
          <br>
          In case of private law, it is an issue between two or more
          individuals (or legal entities) and in many cases it is
          possible that they can preselect a jurisdiction of application
          if there is a dispute about given matters for which the
          jurisdiction is preselected. This generally happens in various
          contracts.<br>
          <br>
           Application of labour law is a good example. Labour law
          consists of some values and standards that a society decides
          must apply to every employment. It is a public law. There is
          *no* choice for a set of employer and employed, or even a
          trade union on the latter's behalf, to agree *not* to be
          subject to a society's labour laws. However, one can enter
          into a contract of service (which may otherwise look quite
          like employment) whereby the conditions of the contract can be
          mutual agreed. I dont know how it is different countries, but
          sometimes in such cases disputes under the contract can be
          subject to mutually preselected jurisdiction. Private law is
          in operation here.
          <br>
          <br>
          IN case of private law, it may be possible to choose the
          jurisdiction that will be applicable to disputes.
          <br>
          <br>
          However, public law can always upstage private law
          application; for instance labour courts can hold that certain
          contracts of service should really have been cases of regular
          employment, subject to public labour laws.<br>
          <br>
          Uber for instance makes out private contracts (under private
          law) with its drivers. You would have heard that many drivers
          have sued the company that this arrangement should in fact be
          of regular employment, subject to labour laws (public law).
          <br>
          <br>
          Hope this clarifies. parminder <br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <o:p></o:p></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">2016-10-16 15:19 GMT+02:00 parminder
              &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>&gt;:<o:p></o:p></p>
            <div>
              <p><span
                  style="font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">As
                  I mentioned, the distinction between public law and
                  private law is for instance spoken of in many
                  judgements of the highest courts in India, and is in
                  general understood and public law being that involving
                  the interests of the state/ society in an issue and
                  private law as only of specific individual parties.
                  Anyway, since we need to focus on our task at hand, I
                  will point to what should most matter to us with
                  regard to this distinction. We are taking about the
                  jurisdiction issue, and what may need to be and can be
                  done in this regard about the jurisdiction over 
                  ICANN. In this regard it is most salient that</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p><span
                  style="font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">in
                  the application of public law there is no choice of
                  jurisdiction available to the parties, and they are
                  subject the jurisdiction of the state where they are
                  located</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p><span
                  style="font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">in
                  the application of private law, often though not
                  always a choice of jurisdiction is available to the
                  parties, especially as and if previously agreed to.
                </span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p><span
                  style="font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">anyway,
                  as Milton says, it is more important to address the
                  kind of scenarios that I have listed.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p><span
                  style="font-family:&quot;Verdana&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">thanks,
                  parminder </span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">On Tuesday 11 October 2016
                      10:53 PM, Nigel Roberts wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <blockquote
                    style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                    <p class="MsoNormal">I do not know if the US has a
                      different definition, but in the UK 'public law'
                      means law that applies to actions of the
                      Government.
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      So an action in judicial review to overturn an
                      adverse decision by an executive branch
                      decision-maker is an action in public law.
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      On 11/10/16 16:19, Jeff Neuman wrote: <br>
                      <br>
                      <o:p></o:p></p>
                    <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Although
                      I am a properly licensed attorney in the United
                      States, I am
                      <br>
                      not clear on what the definition is of “public
                      law” vs. private law. <br>
                      That  is not a concept that I am familiar with. 
                      Are talking about <br>
                      statutory law vs. common law, or are we talking
                      about private causes of <br>
                      action vs. government causes of action. <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      Sorry, but just trying to wrap my head around this
                      and why it matters. <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      *Jeffrey J. Neuman* <br>
                      <br>
                      *Senior Vice President *|*Valideus USA***| *Com
                      Laude USA* <br>
                      <br>
                      1751 Pinnacle Drive, Suite 600 <br>
                      <br>
                      Mclean, VA 22102, United States <br>
                      <br>
                      E: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:jeff.neuman@valideus.com"
                        target="_blank">jeff.neuman@valideus.com</a>
                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:jeff.neuman@valideus.com"
                        target="_blank">&lt;mailto:jeff.neuman@valideus.com&gt;</a>or
                      <br>
                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:jeff.neuman@comlaude.com"
                        target="_blank">jeff.neuman@comlaude.com</a>
                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:jeff.neuman@comlaude.com"
                        target="_blank">&lt;mailto:jeff.neuman@comlaude.com&gt;</a>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      T: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="tel:%2B1.703.635.7514" target="_blank">+1.703.635.7514</a>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      M: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="tel:%2B1.202.549.5079" target="_blank">+1.202.549.5079</a>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      @Jintlaw <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      *From:*<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org"
                        target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a>
                      <br>
                      [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org"
                        target="_blank">mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a>]
                      *On Behalf Of *Mueller, Milton L
                      <br>
                      *Sent:* Tuesday, October 11, 2016 10:51 AM <br>
                      *To:* parminder <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net"
                        target="_blank">&lt;parminder@itforchange.net&gt;</a>;
                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org"
                        target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a>
                      <br>
                      *Subject:* Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] Our work so far,
                      and a way forward <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      I don’t think the question of public law is out of
                      consideration. There <br>
                      is much talk of “applicable [public] law” when we
                      consider dispute <br>
                      resolution/choice of law, for example. However, it
                      is not clear how <br>
                       those issues fit into the “jurisdiction layer”
                      model that seems to be <br>
                      clarifying and driving our agenda. So I hope Greg
                      and Vinay can weigh in <br>
                      on that issue for us. <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      If I understand you correctly, public law issues
                      are analogous to a <br>
                      “stress test;” there is no major issue with it
                      now, but we need to <br>
                      explore how the new ICANN regime will react if
                      something happens. E.g., <br>
                      the European Commission opens an antitrust
                      investigation into ICANN, or <br>
                      a (unlikely) Trump administration pushes a bill
                      through Congress <br>
                      re-regulating ICANN <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      *From:*<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org"
                        target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a>
                      <br>
                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org"
                        target="_blank">&lt;mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org&gt;</a>
                      <br>
                      [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org"
                        target="_blank">mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a>]
                      *On Behalf Of *parminder
                      <br>
                      *Sent:* Tuesday, October 11, 2016 3:59 AM <br>
                      *To:* <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org"
                        target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a>
                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org"
                        target="_blank">&lt;mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org&gt;</a>
                      <br>
                      *Subject:* Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] Our work so far,
                      and a way forward <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      On Monday 10 October 2016 10:28 AM, Greg Shatan
                      wrote: <br>
                      <br>
                          All, <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                          In order to move forward, and based on the
                      discussions so far, I <br>
                          suggest the following approach. <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                          First, we should continue the current approach
                      of defining and <br>
                          refining the various layers of jurisdiction,
                      and I encourage you all <br>
                          to go to the Google doc and add your views. <br>
                           <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oE9xDIAJhr4Nx7vNO_mWotSXuUtTgJMRs6U92yTgOH4/edit?usp=sharing"
                        target="_blank">
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oE9xDIAJhr4Nx7vNO_mWotSXuUtTgJMRs6U92yTgOH4/edit?usp=sharing</a><br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                          Second, we won't investigate changing ICANN's
                      headquarters or <br>
                          incorporation jurisdiction at this time. 
                      However, it's not off the <br>
                          table -- if we identify an issue during our
                      work and we can't find a <br>
                          less drastic way to deal with that issue, we
                      will revisit this point <br>
                          at that time.  We can then revisit the
                      concerns that people have <br>
                          raised regarding such a recommendation in the
                      context of a <br>
                          particular issue. <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      While I can always insert this in the Google doc,
                      I prefer to first <br>
                      discuss this here. (And yes I am repeating it.)
                      The jurisdiction issue <br>
                      is best divided as (1) application of public law,
                      (2) application of <br>
                      private law, (3) the rest of sundry stuff - like
                      about different global <br>
                      offices and interaction with respective domestic
                      jurisdiction (these are <br>
                      of relatively minor significance, and there may
                      not be much to 'decide' <br>
                      about them in advance) <br>
                      <br>
                      Place of incorporation and location of HQ (which
                      is almost always the <br>
                      same) may be the proxy for 'application of public
                      law' but they do not <br>
                      necessarily conflate. US government by decree has
                      given jurisdictional <br>
                      immunities  even to such bodies that are *not*
                      created under <br>
                      international law and simply registered as private
                      bodies, in the US or <br>
                      elsewhere. This certainly is an important
                      possibility to look into for <br>
                      ICANN, which insulates it from application of US
                      public law - in terms <br>
                      of its key organisational activities -- without
                      moving the headquarters <br>
                      or even jurisdiction of incorporation. <br>
                      <br>
                      I will repeat the question I put to the chairs in
                      my last email: "are we <br>
                      considering this issue of application of US public
                      law to ICANN, and the <br>
                      problems that it may cause with respect to its
                      policy processes, and <br>
                      being able to appropriately carry out its global
                      governance role? " <br>
                      <br>
                      The concerns around application of public law are
                      very different than <br>
                      those of application of private law -- and often
                      different actors have <br>
                      these two different kinds of concerns. Public law
                      also have application <br>
                      over private law cases. <br>
                      <br>
                      If this group does not intend to get into the
                      'application of public <br>
                      law' question and stick to issues of private law,
                      then let it decide and <br>
                      state as much in clear terms. Such actors whose
                      interest in the <br>
                      jurisdiction question comes primarily from the
                      public law aspect can <br>
                      then disengage from spending further time in this
                      process - as for <br>
                      instance I will like to do. <br>
                      <br>
                          Third, we should put aside "confirming and
                      assessing the gap <br>
                          analysis" for the moment.  There is still a
                      diversity of views on <br>
                          what this "gap analysis" was and what we need
                      to do to confirm and <br>
                          assess it.  As a result, our time has been
                      spent discussing the <br>
                          parameters of the assignment, rather than
                      working on the assignment <br>
                          itself.  I believe that we will be better able
                      to define the scope <br>
                          of this item and move to substance, if we
                      spend some time looking at <br>
                          the substance of an issue that is clearly
                      within our scope. <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                          After we finish clarifying the multiple layers
                      of jurisdiction, we <br>
                          should move to an issue that is clearly within
                      our scope -- <br>
                          something we have to do.  That way we can move
                      to the substance of <br>
                          the issue and not spend a lot of time on
                      "scope." <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                          An issue that is clearly within our scope
                      relates to ICANN's <br>
                          jurisdictions for settlement of disputes
                      (i.e., venue and choice of <br>
                          law). <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      One way is to look at this is as concerning the
                      application of private <br>
                      law on iCANN matters.  But then, like in the case
                      of .xxx, what if the <br>
                      dispute invokes a public law (US competition law
                      in this instance) -- <br>
                      which one can be assured that every disputant will
                      do as long as it can <br>
                      find a favourable US public law which seems to
                      side with the way the <br>
                      disputant wants things to go. As we explore the
                      issue of 'settlement of <br>
                      disputes' are we going to look only to private law
                      part and not public <br>
                      law? That IMHO would be quite inappropriate. But
                      then if we are going to <br>
                      look into  both private law and public law
                      elements, the discussion gets <br>
                      messy because private law can involve choice of
                      jurisdiction but not <br>
                      public law. This is why I think it is best if we
                      divide our work and <br>
                      discussions as I suggested above, separately about
                      issues of public law <br>
                      and those of private law. <br>
                      <br>
                      But, as I said before, issues of public law are
                      simply out, let us then <br>
                      be clear about it. I request a clarification by
                      the chairs. <br>
                      <br>
                          There should not be any question that this is
                      within the scope of <br>
                          our group (Annex 12 refers to this as the
                      "focus" for our group). <br>
                          Based on Annex 12, this involves looking at:
                      "The influence that <br>
                          ICANN’s existing jurisdiction" relating to
                      resolution of disputes <br>
                          "may have on the actual operation of policies
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      Application of US public law on ICANN has enormous
                      influence on 'actual <br>
                      operation of (ICANN) policies'. And so we are very
                      much within our <br>
                      mandate in discussing issues arising from 'public
                      law' aspect. <br>
                      <br>
                          and accountability mechanisms." I suggest that
                      we examine this <br>
                          "influence" and determine what this
                      "influence" is.  Our work <br>
                          looking at venue and choice of law in the
                      "multiple layers of <br>
                          jurisdiction" will help us in this task. <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      I gave a few instances in my last email of
                      influence of US public law on <br>
                      operation of ICANN policies. Would these examples
                      qualify to be <br>
                      considered under this or not? <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                          A note on process -- it is very important that
                      we focus on creating <br>
                          written material. In our calls, we should be
                      working on and working <br>
                          from these written materials. Ultimately,
                      these writings will feed <br>
                          into our deliverable.  Put another way, you
                      should focus your <br>
                          contributions on adding to the drafts
                      (currently, the "layers of <br>
                          jurisdiction" document), rather than on
                      relying solely on oral <br>
                          interventions in our calls -- after all we
                      have 168 hours in a week, <br>
                          and only 1 hour for our call. <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      I agree. Calls can only help confirm or resolve
                      some outstanding issues, <br>
                      and lay further directions. What we can accomplish
                      in writing we should <br>
                      do. In that regard, I also think that to th extent
                      issues can be <br>
                      addressed and resolved in email exchanges here
                      they best be done so... <br>
                      <br>
                      Thanks, parminder <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                          I look forward to our upcoming call. <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                          Best regards, <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                          Greg <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                         
                      _______________________________________________ <br>
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