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<p><font face="Verdana">The last email contained statements of my
general discomfiture.</font></p>
<p><font face="Verdana">More to a specific point:</font><br>
</p>
On Tuesday 29 November 2016 12:43 PM, Greg Shatan wrote:<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CA+aOHUS+v_G1-HjTG-xyaA_KdxPwigKvvgdu5BLD6inJ52Drgw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">SNIP<br>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"> I'll just point
out one more time that the statement that ICANN is
"subject to U.S. and California law as a result of its
incorporation and location" is a fact statement and not a
problem statement or a statement of this group's agenda,
and that the unmoderated discussion on this list that
ranged off the path of our work is not what we are working
on. I'm sorry if allowing a little freedom on the list to
detour from the work of the group, during an otherwise
fallow time for the work of the group, has been
misconstrued as putting that discussion on our agenda.
Hopefully that misunderstanding has now been put to rest.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I read the above to say that the issues arising from ICANN being
"subject to US and California law as a result of its incorporation
and location" , or any kind of discussion on this, is not on the
agenda of the group. <br>
<br>
(And that it was the inappropriate use by a few of some leeway and
freedoms allowed by moderators of this group that allowed this
agenda to be sneaked it, something which is to be remedied right
away.)<br>
<br>
I am confounded. I thought we were pursing all kinds of influences
that ICANN's jurisdiction has on its polices and operations, but at
this stage not necessarily looking to remedies ( it is a different
matter that discussions on two things can never logically be fully
separated.)<br>
<br>
Co-chairs, would you please make it fully clear what is and is not
on the agenda of this group. <br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CA+aOHUS+v_G1-HjTG-xyaA_KdxPwigKvvgdu5BLD6inJ52Drgw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Greg</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><span class="gmail-HOEnZb"><font
color="#888888">
<p>parminder</p>
</font></span>
<div>
<div class="gmail-h5">
<div
class="gmail-m_-7370311094871636742moz-cite-prefix">On
Monday 28 November 2016 07:42 AM, Greg Shatan
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">All,</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">This
discussion has ranged well beyond the current
stage of our work and potentially beyond the
scope of this subgroup; we need to refocus.</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">After
we "froze" the working documents prior to
Hyderabad, the rapporteurs decided to allow
the mailing list to "run free" for a while,
without regard to our work plan, the active
work we're engaged in, or the scope and remit
of this subgroup. However, neither this
subgroup or this mailing list is intended to
be a general discussion of anything related to
"ICANN" and "jurisdiction." This is a working
(sub)group and this email list needs to be
devoted to the work before the group. </div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">As a
general reminder, the overall working method
we arrived at was first to look for <u>issues</u>;
after that was done, we would move on to look
(if issues were identified and agreed) at
potential <u>remedies</u>. </div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">To
be more specific, our plan is to first
identify the "influences" of the "multiple
layers" of ICANN's jurisdiction(s). These
influences may be positive (e.g., advantages),
neutral or negative (e.g., issues). As agreed
by the subgroup, we are currently discussing
and trying to answer the following question <i>"What
is the influence of ICANN’s existing
jurisdiction(s) relating to resolution of
disputes (i.e., choice of law and venue) on
the actual operation of ICANN’s policies and
accountability mechanisms?</i>"</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">We
have been discussing possible influences, but
these have been "hypotheticals" -- proposed by
members of this subgroup. However, we've
noticed that we are short on information about
actual occurrences. As a result, at our last
meeting we decided to make a factual inquiry
to seek actual experiences that people and
entities have had where ICANN's current
jurisdictional set-up came into play. That is
where we currently stand. <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">After
we identify and agree on issues and concerns
(both hypothetical and actual), our work will
turn to identifying and analyzing potential
remedies for the listed issues/concerns,
including any potential consequences or risks
associated with those remedies. As discussed,
the remedies need to be directly related to,
and solutions for, the identified
issues/concerns. We are not up to the remedies
stage in our work, and we won't be until we
identify and coming to consensus on specific
issues. Any discussion of remedies now is
premature, and to the extent it displaces
discussion of influences and issues, it's
actually delaying our work.</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Immunity
falls into the category of potential
"remedies." As such, it is premature to
discuss it at this stage in our work. If and
when we identify issues/concerns, we can look
at potential remedies. If appropriate (i.e.,
if it appears to be a remedy to an identified
issue), we can discuss "immunity" at that
time. However, now is not the time for that
discussion, and we need to put that discussion
aside and focus on the work that is actually
in front of us.</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Similarly,
I believe that we need to keep our fact
solicitation focused as well. We are looking
for actual experiences to supplement the
apparently limited experiences of those in the
group. When it comes to questions of opinion
or speculation, that is properly the work of
this subgroup, and should be part of our
deliberative process. We will get further
input from the CCWG plenary and then through
public comment.</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Let's
follow our work plan and focus on the task in
front of us. That's how we will get through
the work. Thank you.</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Greg
Shatan</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">co-rapporteur
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Nov 27, 2016
at 1:43 AM, parminder <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net"
target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><span><br>
<br>
On Saturday 26 November 2016 10:07 PM,
Mueller, Milton L wrote:<br>
><br>
> I don't object to "efforts to look
for immunity from laws that affect
ICANN's ability to serve clients
internationally." I just don't think
modifying the current questions is the
right way to go about that. You are
mixing up two distinct efforts. One is
an attempt to gather facts and cases
about real, existing issues. The other
is an attempt to erect new safeguards to
guard against possible but hypothetical
problems. The hypotheticals can be
discussed and developed within the
jurisdiction subgroup, there is no need
to circulate questions about them.<br>
><br>
> If you mix those two things up you
will undermine and possibly destroy the
value of the first, and possibly both,
because it will not be clear what we are
asking people. So, please, keep our
questions focused and clear, and pursue
other agendas in other ways.<br>
<br>
</span>Let both kinds of agendas be
pursued in the say way, or equal<br>
opportunity be given to both .... We can
have a questionnaire in two<br>
parts, and in any case, the nature of the
question will make very clear<br>
what is being sought by which question.<br>
<span
class="gmail-m_-7370311094871636742gmail-m_-3364353216113259407HOEnZb"><font
color="#888888"><br>
p<br>
</font></span>
<div
class="gmail-m_-7370311094871636742gmail-m_-3364353216113259407HOEnZb">
<div
class="gmail-m_-7370311094871636742gmail-m_-3364353216113259407h5"><br>
<br>
><br>
> --MM<br>
><br>
>> I do not think that this
immunity can be gained in the WS2
timeframe, but I do<br>
>> believe that WS2 could
initiate yet another CCWG effort to
work on that, if the<br>
>> consensus of the group were
to do so.<br>
>><br>
>> But first we need more of the
background information, the so-called
facts. We<br>
>> have to remember that with
NTIA oversight, the application of
some laws may<br>
>> have been different than it
might be going forward. We need to
understand<br>
>> whether that is the case or
not, and whether there are laws that
could now be<br>
>> applied to ICANN's activities
that were not applied before.<br>
>><br>
>> avri<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On 26-Nov-16 05:08, parminder
wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> On Saturday 26 November
2016 01:55 PM, Mueller, Milton L
wrote:<br>
>>>> Sorry, Parminder, I
see this as a request for opinions,
not facts.<br>
>>>> The whole point of
this exercise is to gain specific
factual cases<br>
>>>> that show actual
issues, not to provide people with an
excuse to<br>
>>>> complain about what
the "think are the problems." I would
reject<br>
>>>> adding such a
question to the list<br>
>>>><br>
>>> Milton, you probably
mean, you are against adding such a
question :).<br>
>>> I dont see you have any
authority to reject anything any more
than I<br>
>>> have to reject your
original formulation.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Was not the community
accountability mechanism instituted
just on the<br>
>>> basis of "what people
think are the problems"? I saw no
efforts to<br>
>>> gather facts with surveys
like<br>
>>><br>
>>> "1. Are you aware
of any instance in which anyone's
business,<br>
>>> privacy, or ability to
use or purchase DNS-related services,
has been<br>
>>> affected by absence of a
community accountability mechanism ?<br>
>>><br>
>>> If any such known 'facts'
exist I am unaware of them and will
like to<br>
>>> know.<br>
>>><br>
>>> In case of the question
of ICANN's jurisdiction of
incorporation<br>
>>> analytical facts are
rather more evident, as raised in the
civil<br>
>>> society statement.<br>
>>><br>
>>> The process we employ can
lead towards certain kind of outcomes
rather<br>
>>> than others. And I see
this particular process being aimed at<br>
>>> foreclosing the
jurisdiction of incorporation
question. This is fact<br>
>>> the "application of
public laws question" because immunity
from such<br>
>>> application can be
obtained even without changing ICANN's
place of<br>
>>> jurisdiction.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Meaning ICANN can stay
incorporated as US non profit in
California,<br>
>>> and it exempted from
application form various public laws
as per the<br>
>>> US immunity act that I
cited. I also said that, as far as I
can<br>
>>> understand, it is
possible to keep the private disputes
arising from<br>
>>> ICANN's organisational
system, including those about
enforcement of<br>
>>> community powers, to be
subject to US/ Californian law,
strictly only<br>
>>> for such dispute
resolution as per ICANN bylaws. We
need to hear from<br>
>>> this group why this is
not possible or not preferred...<br>
>>><br>
>>> parminder<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> *From:*<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org"
target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction-bounce<wbr>s@icann.org</a><br>
>>>> [mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org"
target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction-bounc<wbr>es@icann.org</a>]
*On Behalf Of *parminder<br>
>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday,
November 23, 2016 11:54 PM<br>
>>>> *To:* <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org"
target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a><br>
>>>> *Subject:* Re:
[Ws2-jurisdiction] first draft of fact
solicitation<br>
>>>> questions<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> I will like to add a
general question to the below:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> What do you think are
the problems, if any, with continued<br>
>>>> jurisdiction of the
US state over ICANN, as a US
non-profit? Please<br>
>>>> justify your response
with appropriate examples, analysis,
etc.<br>
>>>> Especially, if there
are existing and past instances that
highlight<br>
>>>> such problems please
indicate them.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> parminder<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> On Wednesday 23
November 2016 09:50 PM, Mike
Rodenbaugh wrote:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> These seem
well-stated, except perhaps they
should not be looking<br>
>>>> only for personal
experience, but broaden the request to
seek any<br>
>>>> experience the
responder is aware of? So I suggest
something like:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> 1. Are you
aware of any instance in which
anyone's<br>
>>>> business,
privacy, or ability to use or purchase
DNS-related<br>
>>>> services, has
been affected by ICANN's jurisdiction
in any way?<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> If the answer is
Yes, please describe specific cases or<br>
>>>> incidents,
including the date, the parties
involved, and links to<br>
>>>> any relevant
documents.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> 2. Are you
aware of any instance in which ICANN's<br>
>>>> jurisdiction
affected any dispute resolution
process or<br>
>>>> litigation
related to domain names?<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> If the answer is
Yes, please describe specific cases or<br>
>>>> incidents,
including the date, the parties
involved, and links to<br>
>>>> any relevant
documents.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Mike Rodenbaugh<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> RODENBAUGH LAW<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> tel/fax: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B1.415.738.8087"
value="+14157388087" target="_blank">+1.415.738.8087</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://rodenbaugh.com"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://rodenbaugh.com</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> On Wed, Nov 23,
2016 at 6:47 AM, Mueller, Milton L<br>
>>>> <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:milton@gatech.edu"
target="_blank">milton@gatech.edu</a>
<mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:milton@gatech.edu"
target="_blank">milton@gatech.edu</a>>>
wrote:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> CW and I have
agreed on the following draft:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> *Request for
stakeholder input on jurisdiction
issues*<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> The
Jurisdiction subgroup of the CCWG
Accountability is<br>
>>>> asking for
the community to provide factual input
on the<br>
>>>> following
questions:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> 1. Has
your business, your privacy or your
ability to<br>
>>>> use or
purchase DNS-related services, been
affected by<br>
>>>> ICANN's
jurisdiction in any way?<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> If the answer
is Yes, please describe specific cases
or<br>
>>>> incidents,
including the date, the parties
involved, and<br>
>>>> links to any
relevant documents.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> 2. Has
ICANN's jurisdiction affected any
dispute<br>
>>>> resolution
process or litigation related to
domain names you<br>
>>>> have been
involved in?<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> If the answer
is Yes, please describe specific cases
or<br>
>>>> incidents,
including the date, the parties
involved, and<br>
>>>> links to any
relevant documents.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Dr. Milton L.
Mueller<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Professor,
School of Public Policy<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Georgia
Institute of Technology<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>>
_____________________________<wbr>__________________<br>
>>>>
Ws2-jurisdiction mailing list<br>
>>>> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org"
target="_blank">Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a>
<mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org"
target="_blank">Ws2-jurisdiction@icann<wbr>.org</a>><br>
>>>> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ws2-jurisdiction"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/ws2-jurisdiction</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>>
_____________________________<wbr>__________________<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Ws2-jurisdiction
mailing list<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org"
target="_blank">Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a>
<mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org"
target="_blank">Ws2-jurisdiction@icann<wbr>.org</a>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ws2-jurisdiction"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/ws2-jurisdiction</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
>>> Ws2-jurisdiction mailing
list<br>
>>> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org"
target="_blank">Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a><br>
>>> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ws2-jurisdiction"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/ws2-jurisdiction</a><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> ---<br>
>> This email has been checked
for viruses by Avast antivirus
software.<br>
>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.avast.com/antivirus"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.avast.com/antiviru<wbr>s</a><br>
>><br>
>>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/ws2-jurisdiction</a><br>
> ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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