<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)"><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p.msonormal0, li.msonormal0, div.msonormal0
{mso-style-name:msonormal;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;}
span.m5523149998126080754js-phone-number
{mso-style-name:m_5523149998126080754js-phone-number;}
span.EmailStyle20
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:windowtext;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>I love the idea of hierarchical control in a bottom-up organization. So … basically, what you are saying is that there are absolutely no rules on this and you are just trying to impose your view.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>I don’t really have a dog in this fight and am happy for Greg to do whatever he thinks best – but I decline to accept ex cathedra statements from a single member as canonical.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>P<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Paul Rosenzweig<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><a href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com"><span style='color:#0563C1'>paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>O: +1 (202) 547-0660<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>M: +1 (202) 329-9650<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>VOIP: +1 (202) 738-1739<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><a href="http://www.redbranchconsulting.com/"><span style='color:#0563C1'>www.redbranchconsulting.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>My PGP Key: <a href="https://keys.mailvelope.com/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9A830097CA066684"><span style='color:#0563C1'>https://keys.mailvelope.com/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9A830097CA066684</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> Kavouss Arasteh [mailto:kavouss.arasteh@gmail.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 5, 2016 2:44 AM<br><b>To:</b> Paul Rosenzweig <paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com>; ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org; Mathieu.Weill@afnic.fr; León Felipe Sánchez Ambía <leonfelipe@sanchez.mx>; Thomas Rickert <rickert@anwaelte.de><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: Re[2]: [Ws2-jurisdiction] Proposed Additional Question<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Paul,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>The basis is the hierarchy principle .<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>We are sub group of CCWG and any question going outside MUST be validated and approved by CCWG .<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Moreover, we need to act in accordance to our charter that provide any question to outside MUST be approuved by the entire CCWG and not by a small group which have at the maximum 20 participants.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>If the co-chairs decide differently ,then there would be serious disagreement <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> from MEMBERS of CCWG.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Regards<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Kavouss <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>2016-12-04 23:39 GMT+01:00 Paul Rosenzweig <<a href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com" target="_blank">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a>>:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><p style='margin-top:0in'>What is you basis for that Kavouss? <o:p></o:p></p><div id="m_5523149998126080754mail-app-auto-default-signature"><p>--<br>Paul<br>Sent from myMail app for Android<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal>Sunday, 04 December 2016, 05:33PM -05:00 from Kavouss Arasteh <a href="mailto:kavouss.arasteh@gmail.com" target="_blank">kavouss.arasteh@gmail.com</a>:<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #FC2C38 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 8.0pt;margin-left:7.5pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><div id="m_5523149998126080754style_14808908470000115999_BODY"><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Dear Grec,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I am sorry to say that this sub group shall not to send out any question untill and unless is approved by CCWG Plenary.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Regards <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Kavouss <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>2016-12-04 22:35 GMT+01:00 Pranesh Prakash <<a href="https://e-aj.my.com/compose/?mailto=mailto%3apranesh@cis%2dindia.org" target="_blank">pranesh@cis-india.org</a>>:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Dear Greg,<br>I like this fourth formulation the best of the alternatives so far, however, there is one part that I see as being problematic:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><p class=MsoNormal>For any problem identified, please identify other jurisdictions, if any,<br>where that problem would not occur. For each such jurisdiction, please<br>specify whether those jurisdictions would support the outcomes of<br>CCWG-Accountability Work Stream 1, identify the future risks of those<br>jurisdictions, and discuss the risks associated with changing<br>jurisdictions.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal><br>Rather than the focus on "other jurisdictions", the focus should be on the concrete alternatives that the survey respondent has in mind, and this is pre-judging the issue.<br><br>I, for instance, have been proposing the idea of "jurisdictional resilience" which isn't about opposing US jurisdiction but rather concentration in any one jurisdiction of governmental powers over core DNS bodies (ICANN, PTI, and RZM).<br><br>Your formulation allows me to express this as a problem, but the solution I propose wouldn't be captured by your formulation since my solution isn't one involving swapping one jurisdiction for another.<br><br>I would suggest forcing people to propose concrete alternatives, but not prejudging the form of those alternatives as you inadvertently seem to have done.<br><br>Also, I for this:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><p class=MsoNormal>or are likely to be used or interfere with<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal><br>I would instead suggest:<br>"or may potentially be used or interfere with"<br>since, as Yogi Berra said, it's tough to make predictions, especially about the future. So, instead of a prediction ("likely"), we could replace it with a risk potential.<br><br>I hope that makes sense, and that we agree on the need for slightly more open-ended formulation for the solutions paragraph.<br><br>Regards,<br>Pranesh<br><br>Greg Shatan <<a href="https://e-aj.my.com/compose/?mailto=mailto%3agregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>> [2016-12-03 23:47:13 -0500]:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>All,<br><br>On the list and the most recent Jurisdiction Subgroup call, we have been<br>discussing a proposal to add another question to the questionnaire being<br>prepared by this group. Specifically, we've been discussing<br><br>1. Whether this question should be sent out by the Subgroup; and<br><br>2. The drafting of the question.<br><br>On the first point, there was a fairly even split (among the few who<br>responded) on the call. On the list, there were about twice as many<br>responses opposed to sending the question, at least as originally drafted.<br><br>Before revisiting whether to send the question out, we should continue to<br>refine the question, so that it's clear what proposed question we're<br>considering.<br><br>I've gone through the email thread discussing this question, and I've<br>pulled out the various formulations of the question. I've also pulled out<br>the comments that had suggestions regarding the scope and wording of the<br>question. These appear directly below. That way, we can all see how the<br>discussion evolved on the list. Taking into account the various<br>formulations and the various comments, as well as the language of Annex 12,<br>I've prepared the following proposed formulation for the Group's review and<br>comment:<br><br><br>*Fourth proposed formulation*<br><br>What do you think are the advantages or problems, if any, relating to ICANN<br>being under U.S. jurisdiction and subject to U.S. and California law,<br>particularly with regard to the actual operation of ICANN’s policies and<br>accountability mechanisms?<br><br>Please support your response with appropriate examples, references to<br>specific laws, case studies, other studies, and analysis. In particular,<br>please indicate if there are current or past instances that highlight such<br>advantages or problems. Also, in terms of likely future risk, please<br>mention specific ways in which U.S. or California laws safeguard or<br>interfere with, or are likely to be used or interfere with, ICANN's ability<br>to carry out its policies throughout the world.<br><br>For any problem identified, please identify other jurisdictions, if any,<br>where that problem would not occur. For each such jurisdiction, please<br>specify whether those jurisdictions would support the outcomes of<br>CCWG-Accountability Work Stream 1, identify the future risks of those<br>jurisdictions, and discuss the risks associated with changing<br>jurisdictions.<br><br><br>PLEASE REPLY TO THIS EMAIL WITH YOUR COMMENTS AND FURTHER PROPOSED<br>REVISIONS. Thank you.<br><br>Greg<br><br>*Original proposed formulation*:<br><br>What do you think are the problems, if any, with continued jurisdiction of<br>the US state over ICANN, as a US non-profit? Please justify your response<br>with appropriate examples, analysis, etc. Especially, if there are existing<br>and past instances that highlight such problems please indicate them.<br><br>*Comment:*<br><br>*It should, however, be made by specific reference to existing laws that<br>could be used to interfere with ICANN's ability to provide service to<br>customers in other countries.*<br><br>*Comment:*<br><br>*If we were to go in this direction we would also need to add something<br>like "What do you think the problems would be, if any, of changing<br>jurisdiction..."*<br><br>*Second proposed formulation*:<br><br>What do you think are the problems, if any, with continued jurisdiction of<br>the US state over ICANN, as a US non-profit? Please justify your response<br>with appropriate examples, analysis, etc. Especially, please indicate if<br>there are existing and past instances that highlight such problems. Also,<br>in terms of future likelihood, please mention specific institutions/ laws<br>etc of the US state that could be used to interfere with ICANN's ability to<br>provide global governance services to all people of the world, including in<br>non US countries.<br><br>*Comment:*<br><br>*An unbiased question would also ask about advantages and protections, and<br>ways in which the current jurisdictional arrangement supports ICANN's<br>ability to carry out its mission. I also find the focus on the concept of<br>the "jurisdiction of the US state over ICANN," to be quite puzzling. The<br>primary focus of this group has been on the effects of "governing law"<br>(whether it results from a legal or physical location of ICANN or from a<br>contractual provision, etc.) and not on some idea that the US Government<br>is somehow poised to strike and exercise unilateral power over ICANN in<br>some undefined (and possibly non-existent) fashion.*<br><br>*Comment:*<br><br>*I would oppose this as it relates to future risks unless the responders<br>also identified other potential jurisdictions where those future risks<br>would not be realized and assessed the future risks of those potential<br>jurisdictions of transfer.*<br><br>Third proposed formulation/comment:<br><br>What do you think are the problems, if any, with continued jurisdiction of<br>the US state over ICANN, as a US non-profit? Please justify your response<br>with appropriate examples, analysis, etc.<br><br><br>*... with appropriate examples, references to specific laws, case and other<br>studies, analysis, ... * Especially, please indicate if there are existing<br>and past instances that highlight such problems. Also, in terms of future<br>likelihood, please mention specific institutions/ laws etc of the US state<br><br><br><br>*I think it might be good to couch this in terms of risk analysis. Risk is<br>real and analyzing it is a common activity. Also in terms of likely risk,<br>please ... *that could be used to interfere with ICANN's ability to provide<br>global governance services to all people of the world, including in non US<br>countries.<br><br>*Comment:*<br><br>*If we are going to allow speculation as to potential future issues that<br>have not arisen and may never arise based on analysis that is grounded only<br>in theory without any connection to practice then the natural question is<br>whether those speculative harms would be ameliorated by changing<br>jurisdiction and also whether changing would give rise to other, different,<br>speculative harms. If we want to just guess, let's guess not only about<br>the horrors of remaining in the US, but also the horrors of moving.*<br><br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Ws2-jurisdiction mailing list<br><a href="https://e-aj.my.com/compose/?mailto=mailto%3aWs2%2djurisdiction@icann.org" target="_blank">Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a><br><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ws2-jurisdiction" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ws2-jurisdiction</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='color:#888888'><br>-- <br>Pranesh Prakash<br>Policy Director, Centre for Internet and Society<br><a href="http://cis-india.org" target="_blank">http://cis-india.org</a> | <a href="tel:+91">tel:+91</a><span class=m5523149998126080754js-phone-number> 80 40926283</span><br><a href="https://e-aj.my.com/compose/?mailto=mailto%3asip%253Apranesh@ostel.co" target="_blank">sip:pranesh@ostel.co</a> | <a href="https://e-aj.my.com/compose/?mailto=mailto%3axmpp%253Apranesh@cis%2dindia.org" target="_blank">xmpp:pranesh@cis-india.org</a><br><a href="https://twitter.com/pranesh" target="_blank">https://twitter.com/pranesh</a><br><br></span><br>_______________________________________________<br>Ws2-jurisdiction mailing list<br><a href="https://e-aj.my.com/compose/?mailto=mailto%3aWs2%2djurisdiction@icann.org" target="_blank">Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a><br><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ws2-jurisdiction" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ws2-jurisdiction</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>Ws2-jurisdiction mailing list<br><a href="https://e-aj.my.com/compose?To=Ws2%2djurisdiction@icann.org" target="_blank">Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a><br><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ws2-jurisdiction" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ws2-jurisdiction</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></body></html>