<div dir="auto">Hello Paul,<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I see why this can be a concern and its indeed the reason I suggested the question focus on the issues; I do not believe that the responses we get should be analyzed based on a "disadvantage vs advantages". It would rather be better we provide advantages/comments on the disadvantage raised - One will only get to better critique a problem when it is known.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">However, I do agree that just stating a disadvantage without stating a better alternate isn't entirely helpful so we could reword the alternate 1 of question 4 to include asking for suggestions on solution to a problem raised (even though I feel it's better to take the problem first, the group determine which of them are actual facts and then the group suggest proposed way forward to the plenary).</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Regards</div><div dir="auto"><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature" dir="auto">Sent from my LG G4<br>Kindly excuse brevity and typos</div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 31 Dec 2016 19:20, "Paul Rosenzweig" <<a href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div><p style="margin-top:0px" dir="ltr">Actually, this is a good example of why I don't think this question is helpful. Not because I object to the solution space (as Avri says some may) but because this question is not designed to get us to the solution space that might exist. Asking only about problems or issues with respect to the jurisdiction of incorporation ignores the question of benefits. asking about problems only is like asking me what I dislike about my wife, and not taking into account all the many myriad things I like about her. :-) </p>
<p dir="ltr">And, as I've said before, the question as formulated also ignores the issue of whether any other Jurisidction might be an improvement or not. It is easy to discount the value of my own wife for a hypothetical beauty -- but in the real world, the choices are not hypothetical. Unless we ask about benefits that have arisen from the current jursidiction; and also experiences with other potential venues, this question is just a way of collecting complaints about American juridiction.</p>
<p dir="ltr">So, while I completely understand why Seun would make this suggestion and while, from one perspective, it is a sensible one, it is just a good example of why this question is so fraught.</p>
<p dir="ltr">Happy new year all<br> Paul</p>
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<p dir="ltr">--<br> Paul Rosenzweig<br> Sent from myMail app for Android</p>
</div>Friday, 30 December 2016, 00:20PM -05:00 from Greg Shatan <a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>:<br><br><blockquote id="m_1404380761149379592mail-app-auto-quote" style="border-left:1px solid #fc2c38;margin:0px 0px 0px 10px;padding:0px 0px 0px 10px" cite="http://14831184580000117587">
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<div id="m_1404380761149379592style_14831184580000117587_BODY"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">I am forwarding the following message from Seun Ojedeji to the Jurisdiction list, as he currently has Observer status and cannot post.</div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Greg</div><div><br><div>On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 2:37 AM, Seun Ojedeji <span dir="ltr"><<a href="https://e-aj.my.com/compose/?mailto=mailto%3aseun.ojedeji@gmail.com" target="_blank">seun.ojedeji@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">The suggested way forward seem fine but I would suggest modifying alternative 1 of question 4 by asking for just the "disadvantages" as I don't think there is need to ask for advantages since the goal of the question is to identify issues (okay problems - just playing around with words).<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Regards </div><div dir="auto">PS: Can't remember if I have posting rights. Otherwise, kindly help forward to list.<br><br><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature" dir="auto">Sent from my LG G4<br>Kindly excuse brevity and typos</div></div></div><div><br><div><div><div>On 30 Dec 2016 8:27 a.m., "Greg Shatan" <<a href="https://e-aj.my.com/compose/?mailto=mailto%3agregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"></div></div><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">REMINDER to READ this email and RESPOND, at least with regard to the questionnaire (see attachment). I've slightly revised the email for clarity.</div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">To try and focus this discussion, I'll provide a strawman for how to deal with the alternatives:</div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Preamble -- Use Alternative 1.</div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Question 1 -- Use Alternative 1.</div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Question 2 -- No change</div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Question 3 -- No change.</div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Question 4 -- Use Alternative 1.</div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Thank you for your responses.</div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: <b>Greg Shatan</b> <span dir="ltr"><<a href="https://e-aj.my.com/compose/?mailto=mailto%3agregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>></span><br>Date: Tue, Dec 27, 2016 at 3:28 PM<br>Subject: Focus, Working Method and Revisions to Proposed Questions: RESPONSE REQUESTED [was: Jurisdiction Proposed Questions and Poll Results]<br>To: <a href="https://e-aj.my.com/compose/?mailto=mailto%3aws2%2djurisdiction@icann.org" target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a><br><br><br><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">All,</div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">I'm sending this to the Jurisdiction subgroup list, since this was initially send to a discussion thread on jurisdiction taking place on the CCWG list. </div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><b><font color="#ff0000">Please respond here, rather than there. Thank you.</font></b></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Greg</div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: <b>Greg Shatan</b> <span dir="ltr"><<a href="https://e-aj.my.com/compose/?mailto=mailto%3agregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>></span><br>Date: Tue, Dec 27, 2016 at 2:56 AM<br>Subject: Re: [CCWG-ACCT] RES: Jurisdiction Proposed Questions and Poll Results<br>To: "<a href="https://e-aj.my.com/compose/?mailto=mailto%3aaccountability%2dcross%2dcommunity@icann.org" target="_blank">accountability-cross-<wbr>community@icann.org</a>" <<a href="https://e-aj.my.com/compose/?mailto=mailto%3aaccountability%2dcross%2dcommunity@icann.org" target="_blank">accountability-cross-<wbr>community@icann.org</a>><br><br><br><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">All:</div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Two quick but important points:</div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">1. We have strayed from the basic topic in front of us, which is to decide on the formulation of the questions to be sent out. <b><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;display:inline"></div> I have gone through the emails and meeting notes and pulled the alternative formulations and revisions in to a single document, attached to this email. </b> </div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">With regard to question 4, I believe that the best way to move forward is to see if one of the alternatives gets stronger support within the CCWG. If we can get to a point where there is broad support for the question without significant opposition that may resolve issues relating to whether and when this question will be sent out.</div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">2. Our overall agreed-upon working method is to first identify, discuss and arrive at a list of <div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;display:inline">problems</div>, and then move on to identifying, discussing and arriving at a list of potential remedies for each <div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;display:inline">problem</div> on our list. We are still working on <div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;display:inline">problems</div>. For a remedy to be up for discussion when we move to discussing remedies, that remedy needs to provide a solution to a<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;display:inline"> problem</div>. We can't discuss a potential remedy without having a<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;display:inline"> problem</div> it is intended to solve. If there is a potential "remedy" but it does not solve any of our <div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;display:inline">problems</div>, we won't discuss it. </div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">We've already put aside one potential "remedy" until we see whether we identify any <div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;display:inline">problems</div> it would solve -- the "remedy" of changing ICANN's jurisdiction of incorporation or headquarters location. "Immunity" is another potential remedy that we need to deal with the same way. Skipping forward to discussions of remedies is only slowing down our discussion of <div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;display:inline">problems</div>. I strongly suggest we refocus on <div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;display:inline">problems</div>, so that we can get to the discussion of remedies. Once we've agreed on a list of <div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;display:inline">problems</div>, a discussion of remedies will be more productive.</div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Our working method of dealing with <div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;display:inline">problems</div> first and then remedies may also help us find agreement on a way to deal with question 4. Questions 1-3 clearly deal with issues. Perhaps a version of question 4 that is limited to asking for <div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;display:inline">problems</div> will get broader support ("Alternative 1" on the attachment may fit this description.)</div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Greg</div><br></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><u>The following responses were received on the Accountability list</u>:</div><div><br></div><div><b>Parminder</b>: </div><div><span style="font-family:verdana;font-size:12.8px">Greg/ All</span></div><p style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><font face="Verdana">I think the Alternative 1, which you take as likely candidate for broader support, is fine. I list this formulation below:</font></p><p style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"></p><p style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><span></span></p><p align="center" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;margin-bottom:0cm;line-height:12.8px"><font style="font-size:10pt">What are the advantages or disadvantages, if any, relating to ICANN's jurisdiction*, particularly with regard to the actual operation of ICANN’s policies and accountability mechanisms? Please support your response with appropriate examples, references to specific laws, case studies, other studies, and analysis. In particular, please indicate if there are current or past instances that highlight such advantages or problems.</font></p><p align="center" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;margin-bottom:0cm;line-height:12.8px">(<font style="font-size:10pt">* For these questions, “ICANN’s jurisdiction” refers to (a) ICANN being subject to U.S. and California law as a result of its incorporation and location in California, (b) ICANN being subject to the laws of any other country as a result of its location within or contacts with that country, or (c) any “choice of law” or venue provisions in agreements with ICANN.)</font></p><p style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"></p><p style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;margin-bottom:0cm;line-height:12.8px"></p><font size="2" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">ENDS<br><br></font><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"></span><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">Lets move on with it. We are spending too much time on framing a question.<span><font color="#888888"><br></font></span></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><b>Kavouss Arasteh: </b></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12.8px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">Grec,</span></div><div style="font-size:12.8px">Tks again,</div><div style="font-size:12.8px">As I said I believe ,it is counter productive to discuss many alternative,</div><div style="font-size:12.8px">I could agree with formulation of Parminder</div><div style="font-size:12.8px">Regards</div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(136,136,136);font-size:12.8px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">Kavouss</span></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><b>Sam Lanfranco:</b></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">Greg, </span><br style="font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><br style="font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">Thank you for presenting alternatives for reaching agreement on a</span><i style="font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"> Roadmap for Moving Forward to identify operational issues embedded in the overall “jurisdiction” issue</i><span style="font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">. It is important to recognize that what is being proposed is the choice of roadmap for moving forward. Where this takes us will flow from the assembly of evidence, the application of analysis, and the resulting array of possible options for addressing jurisdiction base operational issues. </span><br style="font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><br style="font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">Sam Lanfranco</span><b><br></b></div></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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