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<p>Yes, thanks Becky - well put<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 23/02/2017 17:37, Phil Corwin wrote:<br>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">+1.
Well stated.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:navy">Philip
S. Corwin, Founding Principal</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:navy">Virtualaw
LLC</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:navy">1155
F Street, NW</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:navy">Suite
1050</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:navy">Washington,
DC 20004</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:navy">202-559-8597/Direct</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:navy">202-559-8750/Fax</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:navy">202-255-6172/Cell</span></b><b><span
style="color:navy"><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:navy">Twitter:
@VlawDC</span></b><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:navy">"Luck
is the residue of design" -- Branch Rickey</span></i></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org">ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org">mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Burr, Becky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 23, 2017 12:26 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Seun Ojedeji; Greg Shatan<br>
<b>Cc:</b> ws2-jurisdiction<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] Blog post on
ICANN's jurisdiction<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#0070C0">I
am extremely reluctant to wade in here, and do so explicitly
in my personal capacity as an active participant in the
CCWG-Accountability work, including as the rapporteur for
the Mission, Commitment, and Core Values provisions of the
Bylaws. These views are mine alone, and may or may not be
shared by other members of the ICANN Board.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#0070C0"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#0070C0">I
respect Parminder’s conviction that ICANN should have
immunity as an international organization. But the record of
the CCWG-Accountability work reflects the fact that the
concept of constituting ICANN as an international
organization with privileges and immunities model was
discussed but rejected in favor of a model that created
specific, externally enforceable community powers of the
sort created by the California non-profit corporation
statute. Absent the statutory grant of authority found in
California law (and the laws of other jurisdictions no
doubt), the community powers are likely not enforceable.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#0070C0"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#0070C0">I
am also confused about how one would reconcile the
privileges and immunity approach with deliberately chosen
language in the Bylaws. Under the US International
Organizations Immunities Act, ICANN would first have to be
an “international organization” as defined in the Act thus:
</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#0070C0;background:white">For
the purposes of this subchapter, the term “international
organization” means a public international organization in
which the United States participates pursuant to any treaty
or under the authority of any Act of Congress authorizing
such participation or making an appropriation for such
participation, and which shall have been designated by the
President through appropriate Executive order as being
entitled to enjoy the privileges, exemptions, and immunities
provided in this subchapter.” 22 U.S. Code 228. The Swiss
Host State Act, 2007, has similar requirements. ICANN is
not a treaty-based organization, nor is it conducting work
normally carried out by an intergovernmental organization.
Turning it into a treaty-based organization would seem to me
to violate the Bylaws-mandated Core Value that requires
ICANN to
<b><i>remain rooted in the private sector</i></b>. This
language was contested on numerous occasions by members of
the GAC, and the community repeatedly insisted on retaining
this orientation. I think that there can be little argument
that the community affirmatively committed to maintaining
this status through the Accountability work. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#0070C0;background:white"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#0070C0;background:white"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#0070C0;background:white"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#0070C0;background:white"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#333333;background:white"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org">ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org">mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Seun Ojedeji<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 14, 2017 1:43 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Greg Shatan <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> ws2-jurisdiction <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org">ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] Blog post on ICANN's
jurisdiction<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Sent from my LG G4<br>
Kindly excuse brevity and typos<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Feb 14, 2017 12:29 PM, "Greg
Shatan" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com"
target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
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<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Seun,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#500050">You
say that a "Trump travel Ban . . . compared to</span><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#500050"><br>
if a travel Ban is placed on Turkey where
ICANN has a hub. The former<br>
would have global effects on ICANN than the
latter." </span><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#500050">Can
you clarify how a travel ban into the US from
a list of countries would "have global effects
on ICANN" and a travel ban into Turkey from a
list of countries not have a similar type of
effect? Is this just because more people will
want to travel to ICANN's operations in the US
than those in Turkey?
</span><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">SO: It's not really because more people
"want" to, it's because for ICANN it may be prudent at
times to have the meeting in the US. When I say meeting, I
am not just referring to the 3 global meetings alone.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
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<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#500050">Why
is it a global effect on ICANN if it only
concerns a small number of countries?</span><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">SO: Sometime ago I was reading an
article mentioning whether I* organisations should cancel
subsequent meetings in the US (even though I personally do
not think it's worth it to cancel already planned Puerto
Rico meeting) but imagine the global effects if such
happen. Beyond that such action by US govt also cause
unintended(or perhaps unnecessary) consequences/reactions.
Like it won't be out of scope for an African govt who is
already pissed off with .Africa[1] and second level 2
character to also indicate the ban as an exhibit to drive
a point. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Just checkout how many ICANN related
articles that connects to the ban has been published
lately so you think similar level of response would have
happened globally if the travel ban happened in Turkey? I
doubt. So it's not always about the few ban countries,
it's about the global reaction.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">For clarity if ICANN were incorporated
in Turkey and same banned happen, the global effect would
have still be similar to that of the US at present. So the
point is not that it may not have happened if ICANN was
incorporated in Turkey (or Switzerland as Paul puts it)
but the point is that it is unfair to say the effects to
ICANN ORG/community in both scenarios is the same<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Regards<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">1. Ofcourse I recognise there is not
light at the end of the tunnel.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
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<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.5pt;color:#500050">[Please
note that I personally do not support the
travel ban, nor do I minimize the effects it
has had and continues to have on citizens of
those countries.]</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.5pt;color:#500050">Thanks!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.5pt;color:#500050">Greg</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888"><br
clear="all">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p><a moz-do-not-send="true"
name="m_-5425054752436950804_m_220202634039829"></a><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#002E62">Greg
Shatan<br>
</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">C:
917-816-6428<br>
S: gsshatan<br>
Phone-to-Skype: 646-845-9428<br>
</span><span
style="color:#888888"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1155CC">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at
6:17 AM, Seun Ojedeji <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com"
target="_blank">seun.ojedeji@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks Nigel, I am not
asking about an overall immunity for ICANN
but I am talking about specific scenario
like the ones I have indicated. Maybe the
right word isn't immunity.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Cheers!<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Sent from my LG G4<br>
Kindly excuse brevity and typos<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Feb 14, 2017
11:45 AM, "Nigel Roberts" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nigel@channelisles.net"
target="_blank">nigel@channelisles.net</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
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<p class="MsoNormal">I think you
miss the point about immunity.<br>
<br>
It's means "ICANN can do what it
likes and can't be sued".<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 14/02/17 09:23, Seun Ojedeji
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hi,<br>
<br>
I am not a lawyer but it doesn't
sound accurate to say that the
effect<br>
of the country of (US) on ICANN
is same with that of other<br>
countries (including the ones
hosting her regional hubs)
because that is<br>
what I think Paul may be
implying here.<br>
<br>
As a simple example is a Trump
travel Ban and the OFAC stuff
compared to<br>
if a travel Ban is placed on
Turkey where ICANN has a hub.
The former<br>
would have global effects on
ICANN than the latter. I for one
would be<br>
glad if there can be
immunity/exemption for
ICANN(used in literary<br>
terms) in such scenarios<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
<br>
Sent from my LG G4<br>
Kindly excuse brevity and typos<br>
<br>
On Feb 13, 2017 7:59 PM, "Paul
Rosenzweig"<br>
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com"
target="_blank">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a><br>
<mailto:<a
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href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com"
target="_blank">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a>>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
Yes, I refute the
proposition because it is an
alternate fact. Or<br>
put another way – it is
wrong.____<br>
<br>
__ __<br>
<br>
The true fact is simple –
by virture of doing business in
France,<br>
ICANN is subject to French
law. France’s privacy
authorities might,<br>
for example, attempt to get
ICANN to follow their right to
be<br>
forgotten. They would fail,
I think, but that proposition is
no<br>
different in kind than the
idea of US antitrust
jurisdiction over<br>
ICANN which will not change
one iota if ICANN changes its<br>
jurisdiction of
incorporation. As I have said
before, the only way<br>
in which place of
jurisdiction matters
significantly (or to use your<br>
words is of a “different
order” is regarding law relating
to<br>
corporate incorporation and
governance. As to that – e.g.
the<br>
implementation of ICANN’s
actual corporate governance – it
would<br>
change significantly if
ICANN moved. But, as others
have also<br>
noted, the corporate law of
California is vital to ICANN’s
current<br>
structure.____<br>
<br>
__ __<br>
<br>
As for your question about
my professional life it is
amusing –<br>
because that is indeed what
I do for a living and I have, in
fact,<br>
given exactly that advice to
German businesses with
operations in<br>
the United States. I tell
them that if they want to avoid
American<br>
law (mostly law relating to
cybersecurity) the only way to
do so is<br>
to avoid having a business
presence in the US. If they
want to<br>
forgo the market completely
they can do so to avoid American
law.<br>
But otherwise they cannot.
And, I tell them the exact same
thing<br>
about French and Indian law
as well. In short, I do this
for a<br>
living and yes, I say
exactly the same thing to paying
clients.____<br>
<br>
__ __<br>
<br>
It is not me who is
“falsifying facts” Paraminder.
You are making<br>
assertions that have no
actual basis in any law that I
know of.<br>
Repeatedly asserting them as
“facts” does not make them
so____<br>
<br>
__ __<br>
<br>
Paul____<br>
<br>
__ __<br>
<br>
Paul Rosenzweig____<br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com"
target="_blank">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a><br>
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moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com"
target="_blank">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a>>____<br>
<br>
O: <a
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href="tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20547-0660"
target="_blank">+1 (202)
547-0660</a> <<a
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<br>
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<br>
__ __<br>
<br>
*From:*parminder [mailto:<a
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href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net"
target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a><br>
<mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net"
target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>>]<br>
*Sent:* Sunday, February 12,
2017 12:54 AM<br>
*To:* Paul Rosenzweig <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com"
target="_blank">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a><br>
<mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com"
target="_blank">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a>>>;<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org"
target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a>
<mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org"
target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a>><br>
*Subject:* Re:
[Ws2-jurisdiction] Blog post on
ICANN's jurisdiction____<br>
<br>
__ __<br>
<br>
__ __<br>
<br>
On Saturday 11 February 2017
10:54 PM, Paul Rosenzweig
wrote:____<br>
<br>
As we have repeatedly
noted, the exact same thing is
true of<br>
ICANN’s being subject to
the laws of India, France and
any other<br>
place it does business.
____<br>
<br>
<br>
Paul, and you have missed
the repeated response that of
course this<br>
is not true (and you know
it) -- the implication of
jurisdiction of<br>
incorporation of a body, and
its impact on its working, is of
a<br>
completely different order
than that of the jurisdictions
where it<br>
may merely conduct some
business. Do you refute this
proposition?<br>
<br>
Would you in your
professional life advice, say, a
business<br>
incorporated in Germany but
with worldwide business
footprint that<br>
the application of German
jurisdiction and laws on it --
and the<br>
real life implications of
such application -- is more or
less the<br>
same as application of
jurisdiction and laws of all
counties where<br>
it may conduct any business
at all? I look forward to a
clear and<br>
unambiguous response to
this. Thanks.<br>
<br>
If indeed we are to keep
falsifying such basic facts,
which everyone<br>
knows well, and base our
positions on that, there is no
way we can<br>
go anywhere with this sub
group. We may as well close it
up and let<br>
the rapporteur write
whatever report he may want to
forward. No use<br>
wasting time here in trying
to "prove" and reprove and
reprove basic<br>
universally known legal and
political facts.<br>
<br>
<br>
____<br>
<br>
Your persistence in
arguing a strawman Paraminder
puts me in<br>
mind of Amartya Sen.____<br>
<br>
<br>
A perceptive book he wrote,
but also speaks of Indian
humility and<br>
self-deprecation... Wonder
why no one ever wrote "The
Hegemonic<br>
American"...<br>
<br>
parminder<br>
<br>
<br>
____<br>
<br>
____<br>
<br>
Paul Rosenzweig____<br>
<br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com"
target="_blank">
paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a><br>
<mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com"
target="_blank">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a>>____<br>
<br>
O: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20547-0660"
target="_blank">+1 (202)
547-0660</a> <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:+1%20202-547-0660">tel:+1%20202-547-0660</a>>____<br>
<br>
M: <a
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href="tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20329-9650"
target="_blank">+1 (202)
329-9650</a> <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:+1%20202-329-9650">tel:+1%20202-329-9650</a>>____<br>
<br>
VOIP: <a
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href="tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20738-1739"
target="_blank">+1 (202)
738-1739</a> <<a
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href="tel:+1%20202-738-1739">tel:+1%20202-738-1739</a>>____<br>
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<br>
My PGP Key:<br>
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<br>
____<br>
<br>
*From:*<a
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href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org"
target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a><br>
<mailto:<a
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href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org"
target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a>><br>
[mailto:<a
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target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a><br>
<mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
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target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a>>]
*On Behalf Of<br>
*parminder<br>
*Sent:* Saturday,
February 11, 2017 8:46 AM<br>
*To:* <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org"
target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a>
<mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org"
target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a>><br>
*Subject:* Re:
[Ws2-jurisdiction] Blog post on
ICANN's<br>
jurisdiction____<br>
<br>
____<br>
<br>
Nigel,____<br>
<br>
Thanks for your views.
One gets faced by two kinds of
arguments<br>
in favour of keeping the
jurisdictional status quo --
which are<br>
mutually exclusive.____<br>
<br>
(1) ICANN is somehow not
subject to the whole range of US
law<br>
and executive powers, as
any other US organisations is -
or at<br>
least it is somehow felt
that US law and executive power
will<br>
never apply itself over
ICANN functioning. ____<br>
<br>
(2) As you argue, ICANN
is indeed subject to all US laws
and<br>
powers, which might
indeed be applied over it as
necessary, but<br>
this is a good and a
desirable thing. ____<br>
<br>
As we have no move
forward at all, we must do it in
stages and<br>
remove some arguments
off the table which we can
mutually agree<br>
to be untenable. So can
we now agree that the view (1)
above is<br>
simply untrue and
naively held by those who
forward it. ____<br>
<br>
We can now move to (2).
First of all, this means that
indeed US<br>
law and executive can
impinge upon ICANN's policy
implementation<br>
whenever it feels it
valid to do so in pursuance of
legitimate<br>
US public interest.
Meaning, If ICANN makes a policy
and does<br>
its implementation which
is not in-accordance with US law
or<br>
legitimate US executive
will, they can "interfere" can
cause<br>
those actions to be
rolled back on the pain of
state's coercive<br>
action. This can be for
instance regarding how and what<br>
medicines and health
related activities are
considered ok by the<br>
concerned US regulator.
(Similar examples can be thought
of in<br>
practically every
sector). Are you with me till
here, because I<br>
think I am only making
logical deduction over what you
seem to<br>
agree with?____<br>
<br>
If so, this indeed
establishes as a fact that US
jurisdiction<br>
can, as required,
impinge upon (which seen from
another vantage<br>
is same as, interfere
with) ICANN policies and policy<br>
implementation.____<br>
<br>
Which makes the entire
exercise of our questionnaire
seeking<br>
whether it can so happen
rather needless. It of course
can. ____<br>
<br>
Lets then not argue or
fight over that terrain, where
we have<br>
this agreement, about
how law and executive power
operates vis a<br>
vis organisations
subject to their jurisdiction.
____<br>
<br>
That brings us to
another terrain - that, as you
argue, and<br>
others have here, that
it is right, appropriate and
needed that<br>
US law and legitimate
executive power impinges upon
ICANN<br>
functioning as and when
required, becuase it is
important to<br>
subject everything to
the rule of law (and in your and
many<br>
other people's views,
ICANN can practically ONLY be
subject to<br>
rule of US's law).____<br>
<br>
I am happy to discuss
this part as long as we do not
keep<br>
drifting back to the
earlier one whereby there really
seems to<br>
be an agreement among
most of us that US law and
legitimate<br>
executive power can
indeed impinge upon or
"interfere with"<br>
ICANN's policy or policy
implementation work (even if
many<br>
consider such
interference as being good for
ICANN and public<br>
interest) . ____<br>
> of the country of (US) on
ICANN is same with that of other<br>
countries (including the ones
hosting her regional hubs)
because that is<br>
what I think Paul may be
implying here.<br>
<br>
As a simple example is a Trump
travel Ban and the OFAC stuff
compared to<br>
if a travel Ban is placed on
Turkey where ICANN has a hub.
The former<br>
would have global effects on
ICANN than the latter. I for one
would be<br>
glad if there can be
immunity/exemption for
ICANN(used in literary<br>
terms) in such scenarios<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
<br>
Sent from my LG G4<br>
Kindly excuse brevity and typos<br>
<br>
On Feb 13, 2017 7:59 PM, "Paul
Rosenzweig"<br>
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com"
target="_blank">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a><br>
<mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com"
target="_blank">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a>>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
Yes, I refute the
proposition because it is an
alternate fact. Or<br>
put another way – it is
wrong.____<br>
<br>
__ __<br>
<br>
The true fact is simple –
by virture of doing business in
France,<br>
ICANN is subject to French
law. France’s privacy
authorities might,<br>
for example, attempt to get
ICANN to follow their right to
be<br>
forgotten. They would fail,
I think, but that proposition is
no<br>
different in kind than the
idea of US antitrust
jurisdiction over<br>
ICANN which will not change
one iota if ICANN changes its<br>
jurisdiction of
incorporation. As I have said
before, the only way<br>
in which place of
jurisdiction matters
significantly (or to use your<br>
words is of a “different
order” is regarding law relating
to<br>
corporate incorporation and
governance. As to that – e.g.
the<br>
implementation of ICANN’s
actual corporate governance – it
would<br>
change significantly if
ICANN moved. But, as others
have also<br>
noted, the corporate law of
California is vital to ICANN’s
current<br>
structure.____<br>
<br>
__ __<br>
<br>
As for your question about
my professional life it is
amusing –<br>
because that is indeed what
I do for a living and I have, in
fact,<br>
given exactly that advice to
German businesses with
operations in<br>
the United States. I tell
them that if they want to avoid
American<br>
law (mostly law relating to
cybersecurity) the only way to
do so is<br>
to avoid having a business
presence in the US. If they
want to<br>
forgo the market completely
they can do so to avoid American
law.<br>
But otherwise they cannot.
And, I tell them the exact same
thing<br>
about French and Indian law
as well. In short, I do this
for a<br>
living and yes, I say
exactly the same thing to paying
clients.____<br>
<br>
__ __<br>
<br>
It is not me who is
“falsifying facts” Paraminder.
You are making<br>
assertions that have no
actual basis in any law that I
know of.<br>
Repeatedly asserting them as
“facts” does not make them
so____<br>
<br>
__ __<br>
<br>
Paul____<br>
<br>
__ __<br>
<br>
Paul Rosenzweig____<br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com"
target="_blank">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a><br>
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moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com"
target="_blank">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a>>____<br>
<br>
O: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20547-0660"
target="_blank">+1 (202)
547-0660</a> <<a
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href="tel:+1%20202-547-0660">tel:+1%20202-547-0660</a>>____<br>
<br>
M: <a
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href="tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20329-9650"
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329-9650</a> <<a
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href="tel:+1%20202-329-9650">tel:+1%20202-329-9650</a>>____<br>
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*Sent:* Sunday, February 12,
2017 12:54 AM<br>
*To:* Paul Rosenzweig <<a
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*Subject:* Re:
[Ws2-jurisdiction] Blog post on
ICANN's jurisdiction____<br>
<br>
__ __<br>
<br>
__ __<br>
<br>
On Saturday 11 February 2017
10:54 PM, Paul Rosenzweig
wrote:____<br>
<br>
As we have repeatedly
noted, the exact same thing is
true of<br>
ICANN’s being subject to
the laws of India, France and
any other<br>
place it does business.
____<br>
<br>
<br>
Paul, and you have missed
the repeated response that of
course this<br>
is not true (and you know
it) -- the implication of
jurisdiction of<br>
incorporation of a body, and
its impact on its working, is of
a<br>
completely different order
than that of the jurisdictions
where it<br>
may merely conduct some
business. Do you refute this
proposition?<br>
<br>
Would you in your
professional life advice, say, a
business<br>
incorporated in Germany but
with worldwide business
footprint that<br>
the application of German
jurisdiction and laws on it --
and the<br>
real life implications of
such application -- is more or
less the<br>
same as application of
jurisdiction and laws of all
counties where<br>
it may conduct any business
at all? I look forward to a
clear and<br>
unambiguous response to
this. Thanks.<br>
<br>
If indeed we are to keep
falsifying such basic facts,
which everyone<br>
knows well, and base our
positions on that, there is no
way we can<br>
go anywhere with this sub
group. We may as well close it
up and let<br>
the rapporteur write
whatever report he may want to
forward. No use<br>
wasting time here in trying
to "prove" and reprove and
reprove basic<br>
universally known legal and
political facts.<br>
<br>
<br>
____<br>
<br>
Your persistence in
arguing a strawman Paraminder
puts me in<br>
mind of Amartya Sen.____<br>
<br>
<br>
A perceptive book he wrote,
but also speaks of Indian
humility and<br>
self-deprecation... Wonder
why no one ever wrote "The
Hegemonic<br>
American"...<br>
<br>
parminder<br>
<br>
<br>
____<br>
<br>
____<br>
<br>
Paul Rosenzweig____<br>
<br>
<a
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href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com"
target="_blank">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a>>____<br>
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*From:*<a
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*On Behalf Of<br>
*parminder<br>
*Sent:* Saturday,
February 11, 2017 8:46 AM<br>
*To:* <a
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target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a>
<mailto:<a
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*Subject:* Re:
[Ws2-jurisdiction] Blog post on
ICANN's<br>
jurisdiction____<br>
<br>
____<br>
<br>
Nigel,____<br>
<br>
Thanks for your views.
One gets faced by two kinds of
arguments<br>
in favour of keeping the
jurisdictional status quo --
which are<br>
mutually exclusive.____<br>
<br>
(1) ICANN is somehow not
subject to the whole range of US
law<br>
and executive powers, as
any other US organisations is -
or at<br>
least it is somehow felt
that US law and executive power
will<br>
never apply itself over
ICANN functioning. ____<br>
<br>
(2) As you argue, ICANN
is indeed subject to all US laws
and<br>
powers, which might
indeed be applied over it as
necessary, but<br>
this is a good and a
desirable thing. ____<br>
<br>
As we have no move
forward at all, we must do it in
stages and<br>
remove some arguments
off the table which we can
mutually agree<br>
to be untenable. So can
we now agree that the view (1)
above is<br>
simply untrue and
naively held by those who
forward it. ____<br>
<br>
We can now move to (2).
First of all, this means that
indeed US<br>
law and executive can
impinge upon ICANN's policy
implementation<br>
whenever it feels it
valid to do so in pursuance of
legitimate<br>
US public interest.
Meaning, If ICANN makes a policy
and does<br>
its implementation which
is not in-accordance with US law
or<br>
legitimate US executive
will, they can "interfere" can
cause<br>
those actions to be
rolled back on the pain of
state's coercive<br>
action. This can be for
instance regarding how and what<br>
medicines and health
related activities are
considered ok by the<br>
concerned US regulator.
(Similar examples can be thought
of in<br>
practically every
sector). Are you with me till
here, because I<br>
think I am only making
logical deduction over what you
seem to<br>
agree with?____<br>
<br>
If so, this indeed
establishes as a fact that US
jurisdiction<br>
can, as required,
impinge upon (which seen from
another vantage<br>
is same as, interfere
with) ICANN policies and policy<br>
implementation.____<br>
<br>
Which makes the entire
exercise of our questionnaire
seeking<br>
whether it can so happen
rather needless. It of course
can. ____<br>
<br>
Lets then not argue or
fight over that terrain, where
we have<br>
this agreement, about
how law and executive power
operates vis a<br>
vis organisations
subject to their jurisdiction.
____<br>
<br>
That brings us to
another terrain - that, as you
argue, and<br>
others have here, that
it is right, appropriate and
needed that<br>
US law and legitimate
executive power impinges upon
ICANN<br>
functioning as and when
required, becuase it is
important to<br>
subject everything to
the rule of law (and in your and
many<br>
other people's views,
ICANN can practically ONLY be
subject to<br>
rule of US's law).____<br>
<br>
I am happy to discuss
this part as long as we do not
keep<br>
drifting back to the
earlier one whereby there really
seems to<br>
be an agreement among
most of us that US law and
legitimate<br>
executive power can
indeed impinge upon or
"interfere with"<br>
ICANN's policy or policy
implementation work (even if
many<br>
consider such
interference as being good for
ICANN and public<br>
interest) . ____<br>
<br>
Your only problem with
immunity seem to come up with
regard to<br>
criminally fraudulent
activities. You give the
examples of IOC<br>
and FIFA but I have not
found they having any special
criminal<br>
immunities. I may not
have looked up well, but did
they? Were<br>
they not finally raided
by both Swiss and US
authorities. On the<br>
other hand there are
many international organisations
with legal<br>
immunities that have
been gooing great global public
interest<br>
work without corruption.
Interpol hasnt started to take
money to<br>
make international
warrants disappear, not, more
humbly, the<br>
International
Fertilizers Development Centre,
immunised under<br>
the relevant US Act, and
which enters into contracts
worth<br>
millions every years for
globally distributed projects,
has been<br>
known to do so....<br>
<br>
(FIFA and IOC become
corrupt because of commercial
thinking<br>
completely overpowering
public service ethics -- and if
ICANN<br>
becomes so it will also
be ore likely becuase of this
reason.<br>
But et us not get
distracted. )<br>
<br>
And if indeed we are so
concerned about ICANN's abuse of
power<br>
and possible frauds and
corruption, we should have let a<br>
stronger and more agile
community accountability
mechanism get<br>
established, like the
membership based one, and with
lower<br>
thresholds of triggering
community action... That is
where the<br>
mistake was made, and
can still be corrected down the
line. Do<br>
not throw the world at
the mercy of US law and
executive action<br>
for this purpose,
especially when it related to to
an<br>
infrastructure which
today underpins almost every
social system.<br>
This is not just some
sports. (No hurt intended to
sports fans,<br>
I being one.)<br>
<br>
parminder<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
____<br>
<br>
On Saturday 11 February
2017 02:16 PM, Nigel Roberts
wrote:____<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
____<br>
<br>
and innumerable
others. In the circumstances,
the real<br>
waiver across
all<br>
sectors and laws
would be seek immunity under the
US<br>
International<br>
Organisations
Immunity Act. Would you not
prefer this<br>
route? If not,
why<br>
so? ____<br>
<br>
<br>
Because I do not
want ICANN to have immunity.<br>
<br>
I have been involved
in this community since before
it was<br>
called 'ICANN',
including the gTLD-MoU and the
IFWP.<br>
<br>
I have seen ICANN
behave as an autocrat robber
baron and<br>
deprive people of
their property.<br>
<br>
Fortunately, we have
made great strides since then.<br>
<br>
Accountability work,
between 2003 (in the case of
ccTLDs) up<br>
to last years'
transition, as well as the fact
that, both<br>
staff and Board now
have personal trust, that was
totally<br>
absent 15 years ago.<br>
<br>
But both
organisations and personnnel can
change.<br>
<br>
Institutional
immunity leads to corruption. I
do not want<br>
ICANN to become a
FIFA, or IOC.<br>
<br>
And the recent
.AFRICA case shows, the checks
and balances<br>
of the US judicial
system appear to work reasonably
well (I<br>
personally remain
uneasy about the covenant of
immunity but<br>
I expect you have no
problem with that).<br>
<br>
I trust this
explains why some people - and I
am one - may<br>
have a diametrically
opposed view to yours when it
comes to<br>
ICANN immunity.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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<br>
____<br>
<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">
Your only problem with
immunity seem to come up with
regard to<br>
criminally fraudulent
activities. You give the
examples of IOC<br>
and FIFA but I have not
found they having any special
criminal<br>
immunities. I may not
have looked up well, but did
they? Were<br>
they not finally raided
by both Swiss and US
authorities. On the<br>
other hand there are
many international organisations
with legal<br>
immunities that have
been gooing great global public
interest<br>
work without corruption.
Interpol hasnt started to take
money to<br>
make international
warrants disappear, not, more
humbly, the<br>
International
Fertilizers Development Centre,
immunised under<br>
the relevant US Act, and
which enters into contracts
worth<br>
millions every years for
globally distributed projects,
has been<br>
known to do so....<br>
<br>
(FIFA and IOC become
corrupt because of commercial
thinking<br>
completely overpowering
public service ethics -- and if
ICANN<br>
becomes so it will also
be ore likely becuase of this
reason.<br>
But et us not get
distracted. )<br>
<br>
And if indeed we are so
concerned about ICANN's abuse of
power<br>
and possible frauds and
corruption, we should have let a<br>
stronger and more agile
community accountability
mechanism get<br>
established, like the
membership based one, and with
lower<br>
thresholds of triggering
community action... That is
where the<br>
mistake was made, and
can still be corrected down the
line. Do<br>
not throw the world at
the mercy of US law and
executive action<br>
for this purpose,
especially when it related to to
an<br>
infrastructure which
today underpins almost every
social system.<br>
This is not just some
sports. (No hurt intended to
sports fans,<br>
I being one.)<br>
<br>
parminder<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
____<br>
<br>
On Saturday 11 February
2017 02:16 PM, Nigel Roberts
wrote:____<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
____<br>
<br>
and innumerable
others. In the circumstances,
the real<br>
waiver across
all<br>
sectors and laws
would be seek immunity under the
US<br>
International<br>
Organisations
Immunity Act. Would you not
prefer this<br>
route? If not,
why<br>
so? ____<br>
<br>
<br>
Because I do not
want ICANN to have immunity.<br>
<br>
I have been involved
in this community since before
it was<br>
called 'ICANN',
including the gTLD-MoU and the
IFWP.<br>
<br>
I have seen ICANN
behave as an autocrat robber
baron and<br>
deprive people of
their property.<br>
<br>
Fortunately, we have
made great strides since then.<br>
<br>
Accountability work,
between 2003 (in the case of
ccTLDs) up<br>
to last years'
transition, as well as the fact
that, both<br>
staff and Board now
have personal trust, that was
totally<br>
absent 15 years ago.<br>
<br>
But both
organisations and personnnel can
change.<br>
<br>
Institutional
immunity leads to corruption. I
do not want<br>
ICANN to become a
FIFA, or IOC.<br>
<br>
And the recent
.AFRICA case shows, the checks
and balances<br>
of the US judicial
system appear to work reasonably
well (I<br>
personally remain
uneasy about the covenant of
immunity but<br>
I expect you have no
problem with that).<br>
<br>
I trust this
explains why some people - and I
am one - may<br>
have a diametrically
opposed view to yours when it
comes to<br>
ICANN immunity.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
------------
Matthew Shears
Global Internet Policy and Human Rights
Center for Democracy & Technology (CDT)
+ 44 771 2472987</pre>
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