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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Hello all,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">The notes, recordings and transcripts for CCWG Accountability WS2 <b>Jurisdiction Subgroup Meeting #21</b> – 23 February 2017 will be available here: <a href="https://community.icann.org/x/TJDRAw">https://community.icann.org/x/TJDRAw</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> A copy of the notes and action items may be found below. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Thank you.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;color:#1D1D1D">With kind regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1D1D1D">B</span></i></b><b><i><span style="font-size:10.5pt;color:#1D1D1D">renda
</span></i></b><b><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1D1D1D">B</span></i></b><b><i><span style="font-size:10.5pt;color:#1D1D1D">rewer,</span></i></b><i><span style="font-size:10.5pt;color:#1D1D1D"> Projects & Operations Assistant <o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;color:#1D1D1D">Multistakeholder Strategy & Strategic Initiatives (MSSI)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;color:#1D1D1D">Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style="mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 1.0pt 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="border:none;padding:0in"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;color:#1D1D1D"><img border="0" width="61" height="61" id="_x0000_i1025" src="cid:image001.png@01D28E85.694FFCD0" alt="id:image001.png@01D28DF5.EF27C2B0"></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:22.5pt;background:white"><b><span style="font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Action Items:<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#333333;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2;background:white">
<b><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue">GS to complete editing of questions for ICANN Legal and forward to CCWG-Accountability for review.</span></b><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial"><o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
<h3 style="margin-top:22.5pt;background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><b><span style="font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Notes (including relevant parts of chat):<o:p></o:p></span></b></h3>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:7.5pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:22.5pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white">
<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">15 Participants at start of call – 29 at halfway mark<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:7.5pt;background:white"><b><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">1. Welcome</span></b><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Greg Shatan: no changes to SOIs. Agenda accepted.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:7.5pt;background:white"><b><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">2. Questionnaire Update </span></b><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<b><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">a. Method for processing responses</span></b><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Christopher Wilkinson - Would be useful to have staff collate and classify.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Greg Shatan - Would be useful to have staff do this.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:7.5pt;background:white"><b><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">3. Scope, Timeline and Work Product of Subgroup</span></b><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Greg Shatan - We are late - would be good to get back on track. Will try to put together a timeline for your consideration. As to work product we have a number of documents that are all half-finished
such as the Hypothetical. I am also thinking that we could possibly talk iteratively about remedies to some of the issues - i.e. the question of immunity.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">David McAuley - thank you for these comments. Part of our challenge is the unfortunate language on jurisdiction in Annex 12. We may need to discuss scope again. wrt hypotheticals I do not agree
- it is about the future that is uncertain - best to consider past and documentd cases. wrt influence of existing jurisdcition is a task for us and we may need to look at it again.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Kavouss Arasteh - (unclear on which point we are on, request clarification). Do not agree we do not look at the future we need to look at the future so disagree with DM.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): discussing scope will get us back into circles... let's wait for the feedback to the questionnaire<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: discussing the scope can wait till we collect the responses, however, I agree with David re future and predictions vs. actual analysis on the basis of what already happened<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">matthew shears: agree with David on looking at the past litigation rather than hypothetical<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: Matt, yes, this might also help solving the scope problem<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">David McAuley (RySG): Thank you Kavouss - interesting point which I will consider<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Gerg Shatan - past litigation analysis are necessary. Hypotheticals that are probable vs possible are probably very useful also.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): past litigation might help emerge a part of the problems of the past - but other issues may not have got to the stage of litigation and are equally relevant<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: The analysis of past litigation can turn hypothetical prediction into analysis of future risks but this is rather risk assessment than hypothetical, Greg.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">David McAuley (RySG): I agree w/ Greg that we might compose probable hypotheticals - I just don't think we can well guess at court reactions to those<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:7.5pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:22.5pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:white">
<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: David, +1 - we can only say if this is a serious risk or not based on our "assessment"<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">matthew shears: past litigation should at least enable us to put more relevant parameters and better scoping possible futures<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): Let us also always remember that accountability is to the global community<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Tatiana Tropina: Matt, yes, that's how I see it. Moreover, the future can be, er, beyond anyone's prediction. Jorge, I remember this 24/7 :-)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Seun Ojedeji - re Hypotheticals if they are probably they should be looked at<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Greg Shatan: Hypotheticals need to be reasonable likely and reasonably clear.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Kavouss Arasteh: The methodology to address the jurisdiction is totally unclear<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Steve DelBianco: the way we designed Stress Tests in WS1 was to propose plausible scenarios that would test the accountability structures, both existing and proposed<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">matthew shears: if there is time perhaps we wait on legal responses and litigation findings and then revisit the hypotheticals - may help in narrowing the hypotheticals<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Kavouss Arasteh: It is difficult to carry out this mixed discussion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Steve DelBianco: It wasn't necessary for the scenarios to be "reasonaly likely". Only that they were plausible.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:7.5pt;background:white"><b><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">4. Review & Finalize Questions for ICANN Legal</span></b><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Greg Shatan - (Review of draft questions). any comments on the current version of the draft?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Kavouss Arasteh - need examples for 2A.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Becky Burr: Amsterdam<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Becky Burr: Black Knight, a contracted party, is incorporated in Ireland. Maybe should read US states and US jurisdictions other than California. For example, DC is not a state<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): Puerto Rico<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Becky Burr: Guam, Virgin Islands, etc.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">David McAuley - Please ignore my latest first comment. Why at then end to ask about the choice of venue which seems to be beyond our scope<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Greg Shatan - these are amongst the multiple layers of jurisdiction.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Kavouss Arasteh: what is meant by General Jurisdiction and Specific Jurisdiction pls give examples<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">avri doria: aren't venue and jurisdiction related. intrinsically<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">David McAuley (RySG): I think they are related but not the same and wonder why we ask about venue<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): Venue is an element in juridiction analysis<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">avri doria: becasue it can have a jurisdictional effect?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): it may - for some issues - e.g. for procedural rules<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Kavouss Arasteh - what is the difference general jurisdiction vs specific and what is proper venue.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Greg Shatan: Proper venue = case can be heard there. As to jurisdiction - general jurisdiction over the entire entity and all matters vs specific which only <br>
applies to certain purposes. Any objections to sending this to the legal committee.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">matthew shears: Great idea Greg - lets send it on its way asap<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">David McAuley (RySG): A US federal court could decide that an issue in front of it is under both US and French jurisdiction – and dismiss the case based on its <br>
belief that venue is proper in France. That would not destroy US jurisdiction.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">matthew shears: yes, lets send it on its ways asap<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): I feel the answer to these questions may be helpful - although we may need to send in follow-up questions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Kavouss Arasteh - when will get an answer to this?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Greg Shatan - any objections (none). DECISION: will send to Legal Committee once cleaned up per our discussions today and will ask to have an <br>
estimate time for a response from ICANN Legal.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:7.5pt;background:white"><b><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">5. Continue Work on Hypothetical #1</span></b><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Greg Shatan - someone is suing ICANN because they have been harmed - they win - the court issues an order telling ICANN to do or not something (delegate or not a TLD).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Steve DelBianco - when I read this it is plausible scenario. However this is not the stress test approach.Need to compare how things play out in our current jurisdiction scenario vs others.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Greg Shatan - Difficult in this case.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Steve DelBianco: True, Greg We made our scenarios somewhat more specific, and asked about how ICANN could be held accountable for how the corporation responded to the scenario<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Greg Shatan - (looking at comments in document).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Kavouss Arasteh - difficult document. why we need to go so far in this straw man?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Greg Shatan - Just showing the options and that a decision is rarely final - things can be appealed - we have left out the issue of settlement. this does not refer to a specific law.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): the more you go into details, the more differences we would see.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Kavouss Arasteh: It is very difficult to digest this complex hypothesis<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Greg Shatan - please continue to work on the document.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland): Steve's point made sense - if we want to stress test the current jurisdictions - but maybe at a later stage when we get ICANN Legals answer and the answers to the
questionnaire<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:7.5pt;background:white"><b><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">6. Small Group Review of ICANN’s Past and Current Litigation</span></b><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Greg Shatan - we need to get this done please sign up and analyze a case.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:7.5pt;background:white"><b><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333">7. Adjourned</span></b><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:22.5pt;background:white"><b><span style="font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Decisions:<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial">GS to forward questions for ICANN Legal to CCWG-Accountability Legal Committee after editing per discussion at this meeting.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:22.5pt;background:white"><b><span style="font-family:Arial;color:#333333">Action Items:<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
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<b><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue">GS to complete editing of questions for ICANN Legal and forward to CCWG-Accountability for review.</span></b><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial"><o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
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