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On Saturday 25 February 2017 07:38 PM, Nigel Roberts wrote:<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:ac187f9f-4aeb-0958-8cda-503519a4cd1a@channelisles.net"
type="cite">Ladies and Gentlemen
<br>
<br>
Although the haste of the pre-transition days has gone, I think we
should still be proportionate in spending the corporations legal
budget.
<br>
<br>
It is entirely a waste of money, in my opinion, to instruct
lawyers to inform on a proposition which is objected to.
<br>
<br>
It is irrelevant WHETHER ICANN may waive immunity.
<br>
<br>
ICANN *SHOULD NOT HAVE* immunity.
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Nigel, <br>
<br>
May I request a clarification on your views, since the question at
present is not just "whether ICANN should have immunity" but a more
nuanced one - "whether ICANN should have immunity in a manner that
it can still avail of the concerned US law to ensure smooth
functioning of its community accountability mechanism". <br>
<br>
Is it you view that ICANN should <b>*not*</b> have immunity from
US jurisdiction *<i><b>even if* </b></i>it can be had while still
being able to avail of the concerned US law to ensure smooth
functioning of its community accountability mechanism? (Apart of
course from normal immunity exceptions like most criminal matters
etc.) Thanks.<br>
<br>
And if your answer is still "no" even to such partial immunity ,
does it matter to you that, in such a case, ICANN can no way be
considered to be moving towards being a "truly international
organisation" as called for by the NetMundial statement, arising
from a process of which ICANN itself was a co-convenor -- nor does
to confirm to the call for "accelerating the globalisation of ICANN"
in the Montevideo statement by the technical community (including
ICANN). <br>
<br>
Have we now committed ourselves to moving backwards.<br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:ac187f9f-4aeb-0958-8cda-503519a4cd1a@channelisles.net"
type="cite">
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 25/02/17 13:51, Kavouss Arasteh wrote:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Dear Grec
<br>
I fully agree with Seun.
<br>
We must raise this question legally and ask for a NEUTRAL LEGAL
VIEW
<br>
There is désagrément on the matter.
<br>
Several person said, there is no possibility to Immune ICANN
from US LAW
<br>
Others said .it has had a precedence.
<br>
This exchange of correspondence is totally counter productive
and must
<br>
be resolved properly.
<br>
I terrefort request Greg, to formulate the question/ view on the
matter
<br>
and after consultation with Co-Chair ask for an international
Neutral
<br>
Legal View .
<br>
Regards
<br>
Kavouss
<br>
<br>
2017-02-25 10:43 GMT+01:00 Seun Ojedeji
<<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com">seun.ojedeji@gmail.com</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com"><mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com></a>>:
<br>
<br>
On Feb 25, 2017 5:21 AM, "parminder"
<<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net"><mailto:parminder@itforchange.net></a>> wrote:
<br>
<br>
Becky, thanks for your response and please see inline.
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"> Absent the statutory grant of
authority found in California
<br>
law (and the laws of other jurisdictions no doubt),
the
<br>
community powers are likely not enforceable.
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
As argued in my previous email, based on an legal memo
attached
<br>
to an ICANN report, it is evident that ICANN can waive
immunity
<br>
with regard to operation of relevant California non
profit law
<br>
required for its accountability mechanism. I am happy to
seek
<br>
legal advice on this point. But from what looks apparent
now,
<br>
your above statement may not hold true.
<br>
<br>
<br>
SO: FWIW, Can we then derive a question from this for the
legal to
<br>
answer? I think it may be better we have something
<br>
officially/formerly documented with regards to this,
otherwise we
<br>
will just keep coming back to it everytime. It will be good
to be
<br>
able to provide documentation is future to show that it's a
matter
<br>
that has been discussed and brought to a "consensus based"
conclusion.
<br>
<br>
Regards
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"> ____
<br>
<br>
__ __
<br>
<br>
I am also confused about how one would reconcile the
<br>
privileges and immunity approach with deliberately
chosen
<br>
language in the Bylaws. Under the US International
<br>
Organizations Immunities Act, ICANN would first have
to be an
<br>
“international organization” as defined in the Act
thus: For
<br>
the purposes of this subchapter, the term
“international
<br>
organization” means a public international
organization in
<br>
which the United States participates pursuant to any
treaty or
<br>
under the authority of any Act of Congress authorizing
such
<br>
participation or making an appropriation for such
<br>
participation, and which shall have been designated by
the
<br>
President through appropriate Executive order as being
<br>
entitled to enjoy the privileges, exemptions, and
immunities
<br>
provided in this subchapter.” 22 U.S. Code 228. The
Swiss
<br>
Host State Act, 2007, has similar requirements.
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Yes, it needs action by both the Congress and the
President of
<br>
the US. The former will need to just amend some existing
laws
<br>
related to some international orgs and add ICANN
somewhere in
<br>
it. Simple work. And the President has to issue a decree
under
<br>
the Immunities Act.
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"> ICANN is not a treaty-based
organization,
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
This is not required.
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<br>
nor is it conducting work normally carried out by an
<br>
intergovernmental organization.
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
As shown by Jorge, this is not true.
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"> Turning it into a treaty-based
organization
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
No need to turn it into treaty based org to get US
immunity.
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<br>
would seem to me to violate the Bylaws-mandated Core
Value
<br>
that requires ICANN to */remain rooted in the private
sector/*.
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
There is a linguistic problem here. Private sector is
understood
<br>
differently in the US than almost everywhere else. In
the US, it
<br>
is just to be outside government, which ICANN is.
Outside the
<br>
US, it mostly mean for profit sector. ICANN is indeed
outside
<br>
government(s), and there is no proposal to change that.
But it
<br>
is also equally a non profit . That also I hope is not
intended
<br>
to be changed.
<br>
<br>
In any case, whether non profit or for profit,
everything is
<br>
always subject to some kind of governmental
jurisdiction. Being
<br>
so subject does not change its non profit or even for
profit
<br>
nature. So the point is really moot.
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"> This language was contested on
numerous occasions by members
<br>
of the GAC, and the community repeatedly insisted on
retaining
<br>
this orientation. I think that there can be little
argument
<br>
that the community affirmatively committed to
maintaining this
<br>
status through the Accountability work.
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
The community asked this group to consider the issue of
US
<br>
jurisdiction over ICANN. And a question can only be
considered
<br>
if it is open - -unless, sorry to use that word, we are
all
<br>
mutually and together fooling ourselves, and doing
discussions
<br>
that really have no meaning or purpose. I really hope
this is
<br>
not the case - -although, I must admit, despair often
does
<br>
arises that it may actually may be the case.
<br>
<br>
parminder
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<br>
____
<br>
<br>
__ __
<br>
<br>
__ __
<br>
<br>
__ __
<br>
<br>
__ __
<br>
<br>
____
<br>
<br>
__ __
<br>
<br>
*From:*ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org"><mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org></a>
<br>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org">mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org"><mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org></a>] *On
Behalf Of
<br>
*Seun Ojedeji
<br>
*Sent:* Tuesday, February 14, 2017 1:43 PM
<br>
*To:* Greg Shatan <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com"><gregshatanipc@gmail.com></a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com"><mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com></a>
<br>
*Cc:* ws2-jurisdiction
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org"><ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org></a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org"><mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org></a>
<br>
*Subject:* Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] Blog post on ICANN's
<br>
jurisdiction____
<br>
<br>
__ __
<br>
<br>
Sent from my LG G4
<br>
Kindly excuse brevity and typos____
<br>
<br>
__ __
<br>
<br>
On Feb 14, 2017 12:29 PM, "Greg Shatan"
<br>
<<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com"><mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com></a>>
<br>
wrote:____
<br>
<br>
Seun,____
<br>
<br>
__ __
<br>
<br>
You say that a "Trump travel Ban . . . compared
to____
<br>
<br>
<br>
if a travel Ban is placed on Turkey where ICANN
has a hub.
<br>
The former
<br>
would have global effects on ICANN than the
latter." ____
<br>
<br>
__ __
<br>
<br>
Can you clarify how a travel ban into the US from
a list
<br>
of countries would "have global effects on ICANN"
and a
<br>
travel ban into Turkey from a list of countries
not have a
<br>
similar type of effect? Is this just because more
people
<br>
will want to travel to ICANN's operations in the
US than
<br>
those in Turkey? ____
<br>
<br>
__ __
<br>
<br>
SO: It's not really because more people "want" to,
it's
<br>
because for ICANN it may be prudent at times to have
the
<br>
meeting in the US. When I say meeting, I am not just
referring
<br>
to the 3 global meetings alone.____
<br>
<br>
__ __
<br>
<br>
Why is it a global effect on ICANN if it only
concerns a
<br>
small number of countries?____
<br>
<br>
__ __
<br>
<br>
SO: Sometime ago I was reading an article mentioning
whether
<br>
I* organisations should cancel subsequent meetings in
the US
<br>
(even though I personally do not think it's worth it
to cancel
<br>
already planned Puerto Rico meeting) but imagine the
global
<br>
effects if such happen. Beyond that such action by US
govt
<br>
also cause unintended(or perhaps unnecessary)
<br>
consequences/reactions. Like it won't be out of scope
for an
<br>
African govt who is already pissed off with .Africa[1]
and
<br>
second level 2 character to also indicate the ban as
an
<br>
exhibit to drive a point. ____
<br>
<br>
__ __
<br>
<br>
Just checkout how many ICANN related articles that
connects to
<br>
the ban has been published lately so you think similar
level
<br>
of response would have happened globally if the travel
ban
<br>
happened in Turkey? I doubt. So it's not always about
the few
<br>
ban countries, it's about the global reaction.____
<br>
<br>
__ __
<br>
<br>
For clarity if ICANN were incorporated in Turkey and
same
<br>
banned happen, the global effect would have still be
similar
<br>
to that of the US at present. So the point is not that
it may
<br>
not have happened if ICANN was incorporated in Turkey
(or
<br>
Switzerland as Paul puts it) but the point is that it
is
<br>
unfair to say the effects to ICANN ORG/community in
both
<br>
scenarios is the same____
<br>
<br>
__ __
<br>
<br>
Regards____
<br>
<br>
1. Ofcourse I recognise there is not light at the end
of the
<br>
tunnel.____
<br>
<br>
__ __
<br>
<br>
[Please note that I personally do not support the
travel
<br>
ban, nor do I minimize the effects it has had and
<br>
continues to have on citizens of those
countries.]____
<br>
<br>
__ __
<br>
<br>
Thanks!____
<br>
<br>
__ __
<br>
<br>
Greg____
<br>
<br>
__ __
<br>
<br>
<br>
____
<br>
<br>
*Greg Shatan
<br>
*C: 917-816-6428 <tel:(917)%20816-6428>
<br>
S: gsshatan
<br>
Phone-to-Skype: 646-845-9428
<tel:(646)%20845-9428>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com"><mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com></a>____
<br>
<br>
__ __
<br>
<br>
On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 6:17 AM, Seun Ojedeji
<br>
<<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com">seun.ojedeji@gmail.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com"><mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com></a>>
<br>
wrote:____
<br>
<br>
Thanks Nigel, I am not asking about an overall
<br>
immunity for ICANN but I am talking about
specific
<br>
scenario like the ones I have indicated. Maybe
the
<br>
right word isn't immunity.____
<br>
<br>
__ __
<br>
<br>
Cheers!____
<br>
<br>
Sent from my LG G4
<br>
Kindly excuse brevity and typos____
<br>
<br>
__ __
<br>
<br>
On Feb 14, 2017 11:45 AM, "Nigel Roberts"
<br>
<<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:nigel@channelisles.net">nigel@channelisles.net</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:nigel@channelisles.net"><mailto:nigel@channelisles.net></a>>
wrote:____
<br>
<br>
I think you miss the point about immunity.
<br>
<br>
It's means "ICANN can do what it likes and
can't
<br>
be sued".
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 14/02/17 09:23, Seun Ojedeji wrote:____
<br>
<br>
Hi,
<br>
<br>
I am not a lawyer but it doesn't sound
<br>
accurate to say that the effect
<br>
of the country of (US) on ICANN is
same with
<br>
that of other
<br>
countries (including the ones hosting
her
<br>
regional hubs) because that is
<br>
what I think Paul may be implying
here.
<br>
<br>
As a simple example is a Trump travel
Ban and
<br>
the OFAC stuff compared to
<br>
if a travel Ban is placed on Turkey
where
<br>
ICANN has a hub. The former
<br>
would have global effects on ICANN
than the
<br>
latter. I for one would be
<br>
glad if there can be
immunity/exemption for
<br>
ICANN(used in literary
<br>
terms) in such scenarios
<br>
<br>
Regards
<br>
<br>
Sent from my LG G4
<br>
Kindly excuse brevity and typos
<br>
<br>
On Feb 13, 2017 7:59 PM, "Paul
Rosenzweig"
<br>
<<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com"><mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com></a>
<br>
<<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com">mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com"><mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com></a>>>
<br>
wrote:
<br>
<br>
Yes, I refute the proposition
because it
<br>
is an alternate fact. Or
<br>
put another way – it is wrong.____
<br>
<br>
__ __
<br>
<br>
The true fact is simple – by
virture of
<br>
doing business in France,
<br>
ICANN is subject to French law.
France’s
<br>
privacy authorities might,
<br>
for example, attempt to get ICANN
to
<br>
follow their right to be
<br>
forgotten. They would fail, I
think, but
<br>
that proposition is no
<br>
different in kind than the idea of
US
<br>
antitrust jurisdiction over
<br>
ICANN which will not change one
iota if
<br>
ICANN changes its
<br>
jurisdiction of incorporation. As
I have
<br>
said before, the only way
<br>
in which place of jurisdiction
matters
<br>
significantly (or to use your
<br>
words is of a “different order” is
<br>
regarding law relating to
<br>
corporate incorporation and
governance.
<br>
As to that – e.g. the
<br>
implementation of ICANN’s actual
corporate
<br>
governance – it would
<br>
change significantly if ICANN
moved. But,
<br>
as others have also
<br>
noted, the corporate law of
California is
<br>
vital to ICANN’s current
<br>
structure.____
<br>
<br>
__ __
<br>
<br>
As for your question about my
professional
<br>
life it is amusing –
<br>
because that is indeed what I do
for a
<br>
living and I have, in fact,
<br>
given exactly that advice to
German
<br>
businesses with operations in
<br>
the United States. I tell them
that if
<br>
they want to avoid American
<br>
law (mostly law relating to
cybersecurity)
<br>
the only way to do so is
<br>
to avoid having a business
presence in the
<br>
US. If they want to
<br>
forgo the market completely they
can do so
<br>
to avoid American law.
<br>
But otherwise they cannot. And, I
tell
<br>
them the exact same thing
<br>
about French and Indian law as
well. In
<br>
short, I do this for a
<br>
living and yes, I say exactly the
same
<br>
thing to paying clients.____
<br>
<br>
__ __
<br>
<br>
It is not me who is “falsifying
facts”
<br>
Paraminder. You are making
<br>
assertions that have no actual
basis in
<br>
any law that I know of.
<br>
Repeatedly asserting them as
“facts” does
<br>
not make them so____
<br>
<br>
__ __
<br>
<br>
Paul____
<br>
<br>
__ __
<br>
<br>
Paul Rosenzweig____
<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com"><mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com></a>
<br>
<br>
<<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com">mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com"><mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com></a>>____
<br>
<br>
O: +1 (202) 547-0660
<br>
<tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20547-0660>
<br>
<tel:+1%20202-547-0660>____
<br>
<br>
M: +1 (202) 329-9650
<br>
<tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20329-9650>
<br>
<tel:+1%20202-329-9650>____
<br>
<br>
VOIP: +1 (202) 738-1739
<br>
<tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20738-1739>
<br>
<tel:+1%20202-738-1739>____
<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.redbranchconsulting.com">www.redbranchconsulting.com</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.redbranchconsulting.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=SW0awN355LgKou0VH8FoTnUMVW3Ew72doP7GYG8HOWw&e="><https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.redbranchconsulting.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=SW0awN355LgKou0VH8FoTnUMVW3Ew72doP7GYG8HOWw&e=></a><br>
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__ __
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<br>
*From:*parminder
<br>
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<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net"><mailto:parminder@itforchange.net></a>>]
<br>
*Sent:* Sunday, February 12, 2017
12:54 AM
<br>
*To:* Paul Rosenzweig
<br>
<<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a>
<br>
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<br>
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<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com"><mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com></a>>>;
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org">ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org"><mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org></a>
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<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org"><mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org></a>>
<br>
*Subject:* Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction]
Blog
<br>
post on ICANN's jurisdiction____
<br>
<br>
__ __
<br>
<br>
__ __
<br>
<br>
On Saturday 11 February 2017 10:54
PM,
<br>
Paul Rosenzweig wrote:____
<br>
<br>
As we have repeatedly noted,
the exact
<br>
same thing is true of
<br>
ICANN’s being subject to the
laws of
<br>
India, France and any other
<br>
place it does business. ____
<br>
<br>
<br>
Paul, and you have missed the
repeated
<br>
response that of course this
<br>
is not true (and you know it) --
the
<br>
implication of jurisdiction of
<br>
incorporation of a body, and its
impact on
<br>
its working, is of a
<br>
completely different order than
that of
<br>
the jurisdictions where it
<br>
may merely conduct some business.
Do you
<br>
refute this proposition?
<br>
<br>
Would you in your professional
life
<br>
advice, say, a business
<br>
incorporated in Germany but with
worldwide
<br>
business footprint that
<br>
the application of German
jurisdiction and
<br>
laws on it -- and the
<br>
real life implications of such
application
<br>
-- is more or less the
<br>
same as application of
jurisdiction and
<br>
laws of all counties where
<br>
it may conduct any business at
all? I look
<br>
forward to a clear and
<br>
unambiguous response to this.
Thanks.
<br>
<br>
If indeed we are to keep
falsifying such
<br>
basic facts, which everyone
<br>
knows well, and base our positions
on
<br>
that, there is no way we can
<br>
go anywhere with this sub group.
We may as
<br>
well close it up and let
<br>
the rapporteur write whatever
report he
<br>
may want to forward. No use
<br>
wasting time here in trying to
"prove" and
<br>
reprove and reprove basic
<br>
universally known legal and
political facts.
<br>
<br>
<br>
____
<br>
<br>
Your persistence in arguing a
strawman
<br>
Paraminder puts me in
<br>
mind of Amartya Sen.____
<br>
<br>
<br>
A perceptive book he wrote, but
also
<br>
speaks of Indian humility and
<br>
self-deprecation... Wonder why no
one ever
<br>
wrote "The Hegemonic
<br>
American"...
<br>
<br>
parminder
<br>
<br>
<br>
____
<br>
<br>
____
<br>
<br>
Paul Rosenzweig____
<br>
<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a>
<br>
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<br>
<br>
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<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com"><mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com></a>>____
<br>
<br>
O: +1 (202) 547-0660
<br>
<tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20547-0660>
<br>
<tel:+1%20202-547-0660>____
<br>
<br>
M: +1 (202) 329-9650
<br>
<tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20329-9650>
<br>
<tel:+1%20202-329-9650>____
<br>
<br>
VOIP: +1 (202) 738-1739
<br>
<tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20738-1739>
<br>
<tel:+1%20202-738-1739>____
<br>
<br>
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<br>
My PGP Key:
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<br>
____
<br>
<br>
<br>
*From:*ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org"><mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org></a>
<br>
<br>
<<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org">mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org"><mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org></a>>
<br>
<br>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org">mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a>
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<br>
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<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org"><mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org></a>>]
<br>
*On Behalf Of
<br>
*parminder
<br>
*Sent:* Saturday, February 11,
2017
<br>
8:46 AM
<br>
*To:*
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org">ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org"><mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org></a>
<br>
<<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org">mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org"><mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org></a>>
<br>
*Subject:* Re:
[Ws2-jurisdiction] Blog
<br>
post on ICANN's
<br>
jurisdiction____
<br>
<br>
____
<br>
<br>
Nigel,____
<br>
<br>
Thanks for your views. One
gets faced
<br>
by two kinds of arguments
<br>
in favour of keeping the
<br>
jurisdictional status quo -- which are
<br>
mutually exclusive.____
<br>
<br>
(1) ICANN is somehow not
subject to
<br>
the whole range of US law
<br>
and executive powers, as any
other US
<br>
organisations is - or at
<br>
least it is somehow felt that
US law
<br>
and executive power will
<br>
never apply itself over ICANN
<br>
functioning. ____
<br>
<br>
(2) As you argue, ICANN is
indeed
<br>
subject to all US laws and
<br>
powers, which might indeed be
applied
<br>
over it as necessary, but
<br>
this is a good and a desirable
thing. ____
<br>
<br>
As we have no move forward at
all, we
<br>
must do it in stages and
<br>
remove some arguments off the
table
<br>
which we can mutually agree
<br>
to be untenable. So can we now
agree
<br>
that the view (1) above is
<br>
simply untrue and naively held
by
<br>
those who forward it. ____
<br>
<br>
We can now move to (2). First
of all,
<br>
this means that indeed US
<br>
law and executive can impinge
upon
<br>
ICANN's policy implementation
<br>
whenever it feels it valid to
do so in
<br>
pursuance of legitimate
<br>
US public interest. Meaning,
If ICANN
<br>
makes a policy and does
<br>
its implementation which is
not
<br>
in-accordance with US law or
<br>
legitimate US executive will,
they can
<br>
"interfere" can cause
<br>
those actions to be rolled
back on the
<br>
pain of state's coercive
<br>
action. This can be for
instance
<br>
regarding how and what
<br>
medicines and health related
<br>
activities are considered ok by the
<br>
concerned US regulator.
(Similar
<br>
examples can be thought of in
<br>
practically every sector). Are
you
<br>
with me till here, because I
<br>
think I am only making logical
<br>
deduction over what you seem to
<br>
agree with?____
<br>
<br>
If so, this indeed establishes
as a
<br>
fact that US jurisdiction
<br>
can, as required, impinge upon
(which
<br>
seen from another vantage
<br>
is same as, interfere with)
ICANN
<br>
policies and policy
<br>
implementation.____
<br>
<br>
Which makes the entire
exercise of our
<br>
questionnaire seeking
<br>
whether it can so happen
rather
<br>
needless. It of course can. ____
<br>
<br>
Lets then not argue or fight
over that
<br>
terrain, where we have
<br>
this agreement, about how law
and
<br>
executive power operates vis a
<br>
vis organisations subject to
their
<br>
jurisdiction. ____
<br>
<br>
That brings us to another
terrain -
<br>
that, as you argue, and
<br>
others have here, that it is
right,
<br>
appropriate and needed that
<br>
US law and legitimate
executive power
<br>
impinges upon ICANN
<br>
functioning as and when
required,
<br>
becuase it is important to
<br>
subject everything to the rule
of law
<br>
(and in your and many
<br>
other people's views, ICANN
can
<br>
practically ONLY be subject to
<br>
rule of US's law).____
<br>
<br>
I am happy to discuss this
part as
<br>
long as we do not keep
<br>
drifting back to the earlier
one
<br>
whereby there really seems to
<br>
be an agreement among most of
us that
<br>
US law and legitimate
<br>
executive power can indeed
impinge
<br>
upon or "interfere with"
<br>
ICANN's policy or policy
<br>
implementation work (even if many
<br>
consider such interference as
being
<br>
good for ICANN and public
<br>
interest) . ____
<br>
> of the country of (US) on ICANN
is same
<br>
with that of other
<br>
countries (including the ones hosting
her
<br>
regional hubs) because that is
<br>
what I think Paul may be implying
here.
<br>
<br>
As a simple example is a Trump travel
Ban and
<br>
the OFAC stuff compared to
<br>
if a travel Ban is placed on Turkey
where
<br>
ICANN has a hub. The former
<br>
would have global effects on ICANN
than the
<br>
latter. I for one would be
<br>
glad if there can be
immunity/exemption for
<br>
ICANN(used in literary
<br>
terms) in such scenarios
<br>
<br>
Regards
<br>
<br>
Sent from my LG G4
<br>
Kindly excuse brevity and typos
<br>
<br>
On Feb 13, 2017 7:59 PM, "Paul
Rosenzweig"
<br>
<<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a>
<br>
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<br>
<<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com">mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com"><mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com></a>>>
<br>
wrote:
<br>
<br>
Yes, I refute the proposition
because it
<br>
is an alternate fact. Or
<br>
put another way – it is wrong.____
<br>
<br>
__ __
<br>
<br>
The true fact is simple – by
virture of
<br>
doing business in France,
<br>
ICANN is subject to French law.
France’s
<br>
privacy authorities might,
<br>
for example, attempt to get ICANN
to
<br>
follow their right to be
<br>
forgotten. They would fail, I
think, but
<br>
that proposition is no
<br>
different in kind than the idea of
US
<br>
antitrust jurisdiction over
<br>
ICANN which will not change one
iota if
<br>
ICANN changes its
<br>
jurisdiction of incorporation. As
I have
<br>
said before, the only way
<br>
in which place of jurisdiction
matters
<br>
significantly (or to use your
<br>
words is of a “different order” is
<br>
regarding law relating to
<br>
corporate incorporation and
governance.
<br>
As to that – e.g. the
<br>
implementation of ICANN’s actual
corporate
<br>
governance – it would
<br>
change significantly if ICANN
moved. But,
<br>
as others have also
<br>
noted, the corporate law of
California is
<br>
vital to ICANN’s current
<br>
structure.____
<br>
<br>
__ __
<br>
<br>
As for your question about my
professional
<br>
life it is amusing –
<br>
because that is indeed what I do
for a
<br>
living and I have, in fact,
<br>
given exactly that advice to
German
<br>
businesses with operations in
<br>
the United States. I tell them
that if
<br>
they want to avoid American
<br>
law (mostly law relating to
cybersecurity)
<br>
the only way to do so is
<br>
to avoid having a business
presence in the
<br>
US. If they want to
<br>
forgo the market completely they
can do so
<br>
to avoid American law.
<br>
But otherwise they cannot. And, I
tell
<br>
them the exact same thing
<br>
about French and Indian law as
well. In
<br>
short, I do this for a
<br>
living and yes, I say exactly the
same
<br>
thing to paying clients.____
<br>
<br>
__ __
<br>
<br>
It is not me who is “falsifying
facts”
<br>
Paraminder. You are making
<br>
assertions that have no actual
basis in
<br>
any law that I know of.
<br>
Repeatedly asserting them as
“facts” does
<br>
not make them so____
<br>
<br>
__ __
<br>
<br>
Paul____
<br>
<br>
__ __
<br>
<br>
Paul Rosenzweig____
<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com"><mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com></a>
<br>
<br>
<<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com">mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com"><mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com></a>>____
<br>
<br>
O: +1 (202) 547-0660
<br>
<tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20547-0660>
<br>
<tel:+1%20202-547-0660>____
<br>
<br>
M: +1 (202) 329-9650
<br>
<tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20329-9650>
<br>
<tel:+1%20202-329-9650>____
<br>
<br>
VOIP: +1 (202) 738-1739
<br>
<tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20738-1739>
<br>
<tel:+1%20202-738-1739>____
<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.redbranchconsulting.com">www.redbranchconsulting.com</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.redbranchconsulting.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=SW0awN355LgKou0VH8FoTnUMVW3Ew72doP7GYG8HOWw&e="><https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.redbranchconsulting.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=SW0awN355LgKou0VH8FoTnUMVW3Ew72doP7GYG8HOWw&e=></a><br>
<<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.redbranchconsulting.com/">http://www.redbranchconsulting.com/</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.redbranchconsulting.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=1k6KNFdJzQIC6CkW4-cXYamlUd3hWDS-W8MchdaYxlg&e="><https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.redbranchconsulting.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=1k6KNFdJzQIC6CkW4-cXYamlUd3hWDS-W8MchdaYxlg&e=></a>>____<br>
<br>
My PGP Key:
<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://keys.mailvelope.com/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9A830097CA066684">https://keys.mailvelope.com/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9A830097CA066684</a><br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__keys.mailvelope.com_pks_lookup-3Fop-3Dget-26search-3D0x9A830097CA066684&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=gBJP9BR7SmJmiYPTtMNTO5cs0-iDPOyGn0HBd1gGbLk&e="><https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__keys.mailvelope.com_pks_lookup-3Fop-3Dget-26search-3D0x9A830097CA066684&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=gBJP9BR7SmJmiYPTtMNTO5cs0-iDPOyGn0HBd1gGbLk&e=></a><br>
<br>
<<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://keys.mailvelope.com/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9A830097CA066684">https://keys.mailvelope.com/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9A830097CA066684</a><br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__keys.mailvelope.com_pks_lookup-3Fop-3Dget-26search-3D0x9A830097CA066684&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=gBJP9BR7SmJmiYPTtMNTO5cs0-iDPOyGn0HBd1gGbLk&e="><https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__keys.mailvelope.com_pks_lookup-3Fop-3Dget-26search-3D0x9A830097CA066684&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=gBJP9BR7SmJmiYPTtMNTO5cs0-iDPOyGn0HBd1gGbLk&e=></a>>____<br>
<br>
__ __
<br>
<br>
*From:*parminder
<br>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">mailto:parminder@itforchange.net</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net"><mailto:parminder@itforchange.net></a>
<br>
<<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">mailto:parminder@itforchange.net</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net"><mailto:parminder@itforchange.net></a>>]
<br>
*Sent:* Sunday, February 12, 2017
12:54 AM
<br>
*To:* Paul Rosenzweig
<br>
<<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com"><mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com></a>
<br>
<br>
<<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com">mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com"><mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com></a>>>;
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org">ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org"><mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org></a>
<br>
<<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org">mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org"><mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org></a>>
<br>
*Subject:* Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction]
Blog
<br>
post on ICANN's jurisdiction____
<br>
<br>
__ __
<br>
<br>
__ __
<br>
<br>
On Saturday 11 February 2017 10:54
PM,
<br>
Paul Rosenzweig wrote:____
<br>
<br>
As we have repeatedly noted,
the exact
<br>
same thing is true of
<br>
ICANN’s being subject to the
laws of
<br>
India, France and any other
<br>
place it does business. ____
<br>
<br>
<br>
Paul, and you have missed the
repeated
<br>
response that of course this
<br>
is not true (and you know it) --
the
<br>
implication of jurisdiction of
<br>
incorporation of a body, and its
impact on
<br>
its working, is of a
<br>
completely different order than
that of
<br>
the jurisdictions where it
<br>
may merely conduct some business.
Do you
<br>
refute this proposition?
<br>
<br>
Would you in your professional
life
<br>
advice, say, a business
<br>
incorporated in Germany but with
worldwide
<br>
business footprint that
<br>
the application of German
jurisdiction and
<br>
laws on it -- and the
<br>
real life implications of such
application
<br>
-- is more or less the
<br>
same as application of
jurisdiction and
<br>
laws of all counties where
<br>
it may conduct any business at
all? I look
<br>
forward to a clear and
<br>
unambiguous response to this.
Thanks.
<br>
<br>
If indeed we are to keep
falsifying such
<br>
basic facts, which everyone
<br>
knows well, and base our positions
on
<br>
that, there is no way we can
<br>
go anywhere with this sub group.
We may as
<br>
well close it up and let
<br>
the rapporteur write whatever
report he
<br>
may want to forward. No use
<br>
wasting time here in trying to
"prove" and
<br>
reprove and reprove basic
<br>
universally known legal and
political facts.
<br>
<br>
<br>
____
<br>
<br>
Your persistence in arguing a
strawman
<br>
Paraminder puts me in
<br>
mind of Amartya Sen.____
<br>
<br>
<br>
A perceptive book he wrote, but
also
<br>
speaks of Indian humility and
<br>
self-deprecation... Wonder why no
one ever
<br>
wrote "The Hegemonic
<br>
American"...
<br>
<br>
parminder
<br>
<br>
<br>
____
<br>
<br>
____
<br>
<br>
Paul Rosenzweig____
<br>
<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com"><mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com></a>
<br>
<br>
<<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com">mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com"><mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com></a>>____
<br>
<br>
O: +1 (202) 547-0660
<br>
<tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20547-0660>
<br>
<tel:+1%20202-547-0660>____
<br>
<br>
M: +1 (202) 329-9650
<br>
<tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20329-9650>
<br>
<tel:+1%20202-329-9650>____
<br>
<br>
VOIP: +1 (202) 738-1739
<br>
<tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20738-1739>
<br>
<tel:+1%20202-738-1739>____
<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.redbranchconsulting.com">www.redbranchconsulting.com</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.redbranchconsulting.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=SW0awN355LgKou0VH8FoTnUMVW3Ew72doP7GYG8HOWw&e="><https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.redbranchconsulting.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=SW0awN355LgKou0VH8FoTnUMVW3Ew72doP7GYG8HOWw&e=></a><br>
<<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.redbranchconsulting.com/">http://www.redbranchconsulting.com/</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.redbranchconsulting.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=1k6KNFdJzQIC6CkW4-cXYamlUd3hWDS-W8MchdaYxlg&e="><https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.redbranchconsulting.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=1k6KNFdJzQIC6CkW4-cXYamlUd3hWDS-W8MchdaYxlg&e=></a>>____<br>
<br>
My PGP Key:
<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://keys.mailvelope.com/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9A830097CA066684">https://keys.mailvelope.com/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9A830097CA066684</a><br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__keys.mailvelope.com_pks_lookup-3Fop-3Dget-26search-3D0x9A830097CA066684&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=gBJP9BR7SmJmiYPTtMNTO5cs0-iDPOyGn0HBd1gGbLk&e="><https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__keys.mailvelope.com_pks_lookup-3Fop-3Dget-26search-3D0x9A830097CA066684&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=gBJP9BR7SmJmiYPTtMNTO5cs0-iDPOyGn0HBd1gGbLk&e=></a><br>
<br>
<<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://keys.mailvelope.com/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9A830097CA066684">https://keys.mailvelope.com/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9A830097CA066684</a><br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__keys.mailvelope.com_pks_lookup-3Fop-3Dget-26search-3D0x9A830097CA066684&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=gBJP9BR7SmJmiYPTtMNTO5cs0-iDPOyGn0HBd1gGbLk&e="><https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__keys.mailvelope.com_pks_lookup-3Fop-3Dget-26search-3D0x9A830097CA066684&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=gBJP9BR7SmJmiYPTtMNTO5cs0-iDPOyGn0HBd1gGbLk&e=></a>>____<br>
<br>
____
<br>
<br>
<br>
*From:*ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org"><mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org></a>
<br>
<br>
<<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org">mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org"><mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org></a>>
<br>
<br>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org">mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org"><mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org></a>
<br>
<br>
<<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org">mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org"><mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org></a>>]
<br>
*On Behalf Of
<br>
*parminder
<br>
*Sent:* Saturday, February 11,
2017
<br>
8:46 AM
<br>
*To:*
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org">ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org"><mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org></a>
<br>
<<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org">mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org"><mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org></a>>
<br>
*Subject:* Re:
[Ws2-jurisdiction] Blog
<br>
post on ICANN's
<br>
jurisdiction____
<br>
<br>
____
<br>
<br>
Nigel,____
<br>
<br>
Thanks for your views. One
gets faced
<br>
by two kinds of arguments
<br>
in favour of keeping the
<br>
jurisdictional status quo -- which are
<br>
mutually exclusive.____
<br>
<br>
(1) ICANN is somehow not
subject to
<br>
the whole range of US law
<br>
and executive powers, as any
other US
<br>
organisations is - or at
<br>
least it is somehow felt that
US law
<br>
and executive power will
<br>
never apply itself over ICANN
<br>
functioning. ____
<br>
<br>
(2) As you argue, ICANN is
indeed
<br>
subject to all US laws and
<br>
powers, which might indeed be
applied
<br>
over it as necessary, but
<br>
this is a good and a desirable
thing. ____
<br>
<br>
As we have no move forward at
all, we
<br>
must do it in stages and
<br>
remove some arguments off the
table
<br>
which we can mutually agree
<br>
to be untenable. So can we now
agree
<br>
that the view (1) above is
<br>
simply untrue and naively held
by
<br>
those who forward it. ____
<br>
<br>
We can now move to (2). First
of all,
<br>
this means that indeed US
<br>
law and executive can impinge
upon
<br>
ICANN's policy implementation
<br>
whenever it feels it valid to
do so in
<br>
pursuance of legitimate
<br>
US public interest. Meaning,
If ICANN
<br>
makes a policy and does
<br>
its implementation which is
not
<br>
in-accordance with US law or
<br>
legitimate US executive will,
they can
<br>
"interfere" can cause
<br>
those actions to be rolled
back on the
<br>
pain of state's coercive
<br>
action. This can be for
instance
<br>
regarding how and what
<br>
medicines and health related
<br>
activities are considered ok by the
<br>
concerned US regulator.
(Similar
<br>
examples can be thought of in
<br>
practically every sector). Are
you
<br>
with me till here, because I
<br>
think I am only making logical
<br>
deduction over what you seem to
<br>
agree with?____
<br>
<br>
If so, this indeed establishes
as a
<br>
fact that US jurisdiction
<br>
can, as required, impinge upon
(which
<br>
seen from another vantage
<br>
is same as, interfere with)
ICANN
<br>
policies and policy
<br>
implementation.____
<br>
<br>
Which makes the entire
exercise of our
<br>
questionnaire seeking
<br>
<br>
<br>
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