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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Dear Becky,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Apart from possible initial discussion during the very early Frankfurt F2F meetings (February 2015… I wasn’t in Frankfurt,
but I don’t recall that this issue had been really discussed in depth and less excluded from the ws2 work on “jurisdiction”), I guess we would need some clear basis in the work stream 1 recommendations, which are the ones which laid down our community-wide
agreements and defined the scope of work for work stream 2. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">My feeling is that no decision to exclude was taken, that we still have to look into potential problems (on the basis
of the ongoing fact-finding exercises) and that immunities and privileges are something to be discussed if need be under possible remedies to identified problems.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Kind regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Jorge <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="DE" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Von:</span></b><span lang="DE" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org [mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org]
<b>Im Auftrag von </b>Burr, Becky<br>
<b>Gesendet:</b> Montag, 27. Februar 2017 18:51<br>
<b>An:</b> Seun Ojedeji <seun.ojedeji@gmail.com><br>
<b>Cc:</b> ws2-jurisdiction <ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] Blog post on ICANN's jurisdiction<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Sure, will have to go back through the F2F meeting transcript, but I think the discussion took place in the first F2F meeting in Frankfurt in January
2015, with one of the outside experts who was pushing the idea <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Seun Ojedeji [<a href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com">mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 27, 2017 11:38 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Burr, Becky <<a href="mailto:Becky.Burr@neustar.biz">Becky.Burr@neustar.biz</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Mueller, Milton L <<a href="mailto:milton@gatech.edu">milton@gatech.edu</a>>; ws2-jurisdiction <<a href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org">ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a>>; parminder <<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] Blog post on ICANN's jurisdiction<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">On 27 Feb 2017 22:26, "Burr, Becky" <<a href="mailto:Becky.Burr@neustar.biz">Becky.Burr@neustar.biz</a>> wrote:</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">My larger point remains – this question (re privileges and immunities) was asked and answered
in WS1. </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">SO: I for one would appreciate a reference to this for the record so I can confirm if we are talking about similar context. Would you mind providing a reference where the question and response was documented Becky?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<a href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mueller, Milton L<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, February 25, 2017 10:06 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> parminder <<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>>;
<a href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org" target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] Blog post on ICANN's jurisdiction<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><a name="m_-1846601499639314276__MailEndCompose"></a><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1F497D">></span><span lang="EN-US">Yes, it needs action by both the Congress and the President of the US.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">>
</span><span lang="EN-US">The former will need to just amend some existing laws related to some
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">>
</span><span lang="EN-US">international orgs and add ICANN somewhere in it. Simple work. And
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">></span><span lang="EN-US">the President has to issue a decree under the Immunities Act.
<br>
<br>
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">So in the name of making ICANN more independent of the US government, you want to subject it to what would undoubtedly be a politically contentious and years-long
process of legislation by the U.S. Congress (Republican-dominated) and would require the agreement a President whose platform vowed to never let ICANN be free of the U.S. government.
</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Really smart.
</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Does the word “backfire” have any meaning to non-Americans? If not, check out definition
#2 here: <a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.google.com_webhp-3Fsourceid-3Dchrome-2Dinstant-26ion-3D1-26espv-3D2-26ie-3DUTF-2D8-23q-3Dbackfire-2Bdefinition-26-2A&d=DwMFAg&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=lFzxyNZsqPq3dQCf2tQLLZwXRtWJNr01a16Lb6Zo_d8&s=2vjNdjcujIA_f13AAKVmN8mF_RYRvQZJ-bBgxoQ4Dd8&e=" target="_blank">
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=backfire+definition&*</a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Dr. Milton L. Mueller</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Professor, School of Public Policy</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Georgia Institute of Technology</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0070C0;background:white">ICANN is not a treaty-based organization,
</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><br>
This is not required. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0070C0;background:white">nor is it conducting work normally carried out by an intergovernmental
organization.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><br>
As shown by Jorge, this is not true.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0070C0;background:white"> Turning it into a treaty-based organization
</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><br>
No need to turn it into treaty based org to get US immunity. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0070C0;background:white">would seem to me to violate the Bylaws-mandated Core Value that requires
ICANN to <b><i>remain rooted in the private sector</i></b>. </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><br>
There is a linguistic problem here. Private sector is understood differently in the US than almost everywhere else. In the US, it is just to be outside government, which ICANN is. Outside the US, it mostly mean for profit sector. ICANN is indeed outside government(s),
and there is no proposal to change that. But it is also equally a non profit . That also I hope is not intended to be changed.
<br>
<br>
In any case, whether non profit or for profit, everything is always subject to some kind of governmental jurisdiction. Being so subject does not change its non profit or even for profit nature. So the point is really moot.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0070C0;background:white">This language was contested on numerous occasions by members of the GAC,
and the community repeatedly insisted on retaining this orientation. I think that there can be little argument that the community affirmatively committed to maintaining this status through the Accountability work.
</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><br>
The community asked this group to consider the issue of US jurisdiction over ICANN. And a question can only be considered if it is open - -unless, sorry to use that word, we are all mutually and together fooling ourselves, and doing discussions that really
have no meaning or purpose. I really hope this is not the case - -although, I must admit, despair often does arises that it may actually may be the case.<br>
<br>
parminder <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0070C0;background:white"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0070C0;background:white"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0070C0;background:white"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0070C0;background:white"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span class="m-1846601499639314276apple-converted-space"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#333333;background:white"> </span></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<a href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a> [<a href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Seun Ojedeji<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 14, 2017 1:43 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Greg Shatan <a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank"><gregshatanipc@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> ws2-jurisdiction <a href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org" target="_blank">
<ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] Blog post on ICANN's jurisdiction</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US">Sent from my LG G4<br>
Kindly excuse brevity and typos<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US">On Feb 14, 2017 12:29 PM, "Greg Shatan" <<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Seun,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#500050">You say that a "Trump travel Ban . . . compared to</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#500050"><br>
if a travel Ban is placed on Turkey where ICANN has a hub. The former<br>
would have global effects on ICANN than the latter." </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#500050">Can you clarify how a travel ban into the US from a list of countries would "have global
effects on ICANN" and a travel ban into Turkey from a list of countries not have a similar type of effect? Is this just because more people will want to travel to ICANN's operations in the US than those in Turkey?
</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US">SO: It's not really because more people "want" to, it's because for ICANN it may be prudent at times to have the meeting in the US. When I say meeting, I am not
just referring to the 3 global meetings alone.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#500050">Why is it a global effect on ICANN if it only concerns a small number of countries?</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US">SO: Sometime ago I was reading an article mentioning whether I* organisations should cancel subsequent meetings in the US (even though I personally do not think
it's worth it to cancel already planned Puerto Rico meeting) but imagine the global effects if such happen. Beyond that such action by US govt also cause unintended(or perhaps unnecessary) consequences/reactions. Like it won't be out of scope for an African
govt who is already pissed off with .Africa[1] and second level 2 character to also indicate the ban as an exhibit to drive a point. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US">Just checkout how many ICANN related articles that connects to the ban has been published lately so you think similar level of response would have happened globally
if the travel ban happened in Turkey? I doubt. So it's not always about the few ban countries, it's about the global reaction.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US">For clarity if ICANN were incorporated in Turkey and same banned happen, the global effect would have still be similar to that of the US at present. So the point
is not that it may not have happened if ICANN was incorporated in Turkey (or Switzerland as Paul puts it) but the point is that it is unfair to say the effects to ICANN ORG/community in both scenarios is the same<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US">Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US">1. Ofcourse I recognise there is not light at the end of the tunnel.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.5pt;color:#500050">[Please note that I personally do not support the travel ban, nor do I minimize the effects it has had and continues to
have on citizens of those countries.]</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.5pt;color:#500050">Thanks!</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.5pt;color:#500050">Greg</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#888888"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#888888"><br clear="all">
</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p><a name="m_-1846601499639314276_m_-54250547524369"></a><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#002E62">Greg Shatan<br>
</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">C: 917-816-6428<br>
S: gsshatan<br>
Phone-to-Skype: 646-845-9428<br>
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#888888"><a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1155CC">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US">On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 6:17 AM, Seun Ojedeji <<a href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com" target="_blank">seun.ojedeji@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US">Thanks Nigel, I am not asking about an overall immunity for ICANN but I am talking about specific scenario like the ones I have indicated. Maybe the right word
isn't immunity.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US">Cheers!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US">Sent from my LG G4<br>
Kindly excuse brevity and typos<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US">On Feb 14, 2017 11:45 AM, "Nigel Roberts" <<a href="mailto:nigel@channelisles.net" target="_blank">nigel@channelisles.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US">I think you miss the point about immunity.<br>
<br>
It's means "ICANN can do what it likes and can't be sued".<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 14/02/17 09:23, Seun Ojedeji wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Hi,<br>
<br>
I am not a lawyer but it doesn't sound accurate to say that the effect<br>
of the country of (US) on ICANN is same with that of other<br>
countries (including the ones hosting her regional hubs) because that is<br>
what I think Paul may be implying here.<br>
<br>
As a simple example is a Trump travel Ban and the OFAC stuff compared to<br>
if a travel Ban is placed on Turkey where ICANN has a hub. The former<br>
would have global effects on ICANN than the latter. I for one would be<br>
glad if there can be immunity/exemption for ICANN(used in literary<br>
terms) in such scenarios<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
<br>
Sent from my LG G4<br>
Kindly excuse brevity and typos<br>
<br>
On Feb 13, 2017 7:59 PM, "Paul Rosenzweig"<br>
<<a href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com" target="_blank">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com" target="_blank">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
<br>
Yes, I refute the proposition because it is an alternate fact. Or<br>
put another way – it is wrong.____<br>
<br>
__ __<br>
<br>
The true fact is simple – by virture of doing business in France,<br>
ICANN is subject to French law. France’s privacy authorities might,<br>
for example, attempt to get ICANN to follow their right to be<br>
forgotten. They would fail, I think, but that proposition is no<br>
different in kind than the idea of US antitrust jurisdiction over<br>
ICANN which will not change one iota if ICANN changes its<br>
jurisdiction of incorporation. As I have said before, the only way<br>
in which place of jurisdiction matters significantly (or to use your<br>
words is of a “different order” is regarding law relating to<br>
corporate incorporation and governance. As to that – e.g. the<br>
implementation of ICANN’s actual corporate governance – it would<br>
change significantly if ICANN moved. But, as others have also<br>
noted, the corporate law of California is vital to ICANN’s current<br>
structure.____<br>
<br>
__ __<br>
<br>
As for your question about my professional life it is amusing –<br>
because that is indeed what I do for a living and I have, in fact,<br>
given exactly that advice to German businesses with operations in<br>
the United States. I tell them that if they want to avoid American<br>
law (mostly law relating to cybersecurity) the only way to do so is<br>
to avoid having a business presence in the US. If they want to<br>
forgo the market completely they can do so to avoid American law.<br>
But otherwise they cannot. And, I tell them the exact same thing<br>
about French and Indian law as well. In short, I do this for a<br>
living and yes, I say exactly the same thing to paying clients.____<br>
<br>
__ __<br>
<br>
It is not me who is “falsifying facts” Paraminder. You are making<br>
assertions that have no actual basis in any law that I know of.<br>
Repeatedly asserting them as “facts” does not make them so____<br>
<br>
__ __<br>
<br>
Paul____<br>
<br>
__ __<br>
<br>
Paul Rosenzweig____<br>
<br>
<a href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com" target="_blank">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com" target="_blank">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a>>____<br>
<br>
O: <a href="tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20547-0660" target="_blank">+1 (202) 547-0660</a> <<a href="tel:+1%20202-547-0660" target="_blank">tel:+1%20202-547-0660</a>>____<br>
<br>
M: <a href="tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20329-9650" target="_blank">+1 (202) 329-9650</a> <<a href="tel:+1%20202-329-9650" target="_blank">tel:+1%20202-329-9650</a>>____<br>
<br>
VOIP: <a href="tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20738-1739" target="_blank">+1 (202) 738-1739</a> <<a href="tel:+1%20202-738-1739" target="_blank">tel:+1%20202-738-1739</a>>____<br>
<br>
<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.redbranchconsulting.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=SW0awN355LgKou0VH8FoTnUMVW3Ew72doP7GYG8HOWw&e=" target="_blank">
www.redbranchconsulting.com</a> <<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.redbranchconsulting.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=1k6KNFdJzQIC6CkW4-cXYamlUd3hWDS-W8MchdaYxlg&e=" target="_blank">http://www.redbranchconsulting.com/</a>>____<br>
<br>
My PGP Key:<br>
<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__keys.mailvelope.com_pks_lookup-3Fop-3Dget-26search-3D0x9A830097CA066684&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=gBJP9BR7SmJmiYPTtMNTO5cs0-iDPOyGn0HBd1gGbLk&e=" target="_blank">
https://keys.mailvelope.com/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9A830097CA066684</a><br>
<<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__keys.mailvelope.com_pks_lookup-3Fop-3Dget-26search-3D0x9A830097CA066684&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=gBJP9BR7SmJmiYPTtMNTO5cs0-iDPOyGn0HBd1gGbLk&e=" target="_blank">https://keys.mailvelope.com/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9A830097CA066684</a>>____<br>
<br>
__ __<br>
<br>
*From:*parminder [mailto:<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>>]<br>
*Sent:* Sunday, February 12, 2017 12:54 AM<br>
*To:* Paul Rosenzweig <<a href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com" target="_blank">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com" target="_blank">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a>>>;<br>
<a href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org" target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org" target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a>><br>
*Subject:* Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] Blog post on ICANN's jurisdiction____<br>
<br>
__ __<br>
<br>
__ __<br>
<br>
On Saturday 11 February 2017 10:54 PM, Paul Rosenzweig wrote:____<br>
<br>
As we have repeatedly noted, the exact same thing is true of<br>
ICANN’s being subject to the laws of India, France and any other<br>
place it does business. ____<br>
<br>
<br>
Paul, and you have missed the repeated response that of course this<br>
is not true (and you know it) -- the implication of jurisdiction of<br>
incorporation of a body, and its impact on its working, is of a<br>
completely different order than that of the jurisdictions where it<br>
may merely conduct some business. Do you refute this proposition?<br>
<br>
Would you in your professional life advice, say, a business<br>
incorporated in Germany but with worldwide business footprint that<br>
the application of German jurisdiction and laws on it -- and the<br>
real life implications of such application -- is more or less the<br>
same as application of jurisdiction and laws of all counties where<br>
it may conduct any business at all? I look forward to a clear and<br>
unambiguous response to this. Thanks.<br>
<br>
If indeed we are to keep falsifying such basic facts, which everyone<br>
knows well, and base our positions on that, there is no way we can<br>
go anywhere with this sub group. We may as well close it up and let<br>
the rapporteur write whatever report he may want to forward. No use<br>
wasting time here in trying to "prove" and reprove and reprove basic<br>
universally known legal and political facts.<br>
<br>
<br>
____<br>
<br>
Your persistence in arguing a strawman Paraminder puts me in<br>
mind of Amartya Sen.____<br>
<br>
<br>
A perceptive book he wrote, but also speaks of Indian humility and<br>
self-deprecation... Wonder why no one ever wrote "The Hegemonic<br>
American"...<br>
<br>
parminder<br>
<br>
<br>
____<br>
<br>
____<br>
<br>
Paul Rosenzweig____<br>
<br>
<a href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com" target="_blank">
paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com" target="_blank">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a>>____<br>
<br>
O: <a href="tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20547-0660" target="_blank">+1 (202) 547-0660</a> <<a href="tel:+1%20202-547-0660" target="_blank">tel:+1%20202-547-0660</a>>____<br>
<br>
M: <a href="tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20329-9650" target="_blank">+1 (202) 329-9650</a> <<a href="tel:+1%20202-329-9650" target="_blank">tel:+1%20202-329-9650</a>>____<br>
<br>
VOIP: <a href="tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20738-1739" target="_blank">+1 (202) 738-1739</a> <<a href="tel:+1%20202-738-1739" target="_blank">tel:+1%20202-738-1739</a>>____<br>
<br>
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www.redbranchconsulting.com</a><br>
<<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.redbranchconsulting.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=1k6KNFdJzQIC6CkW4-cXYamlUd3hWDS-W8MchdaYxlg&e=" target="_blank">http://www.redbranchconsulting.com/</a>>____<br>
<br>
My PGP Key:<br>
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https://keys.mailvelope.com/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9A830097CA066684</a><br>
<<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__keys.mailvelope.com_pks_lookup-3Fop-3Dget-26search-3D0x9A830097CA066684&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=gBJP9BR7SmJmiYPTtMNTO5cs0-iDPOyGn0HBd1gGbLk&e=" target="_blank">https://keys.mailvelope.com/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9A830097CA066684</a>>____<br>
<br>
____<br>
<br>
*From:*<a href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a>><br>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a>>] *On Behalf Of<br>
*parminder<br>
*Sent:* Saturday, February 11, 2017 8:46 AM<br>
*To:* <a href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org" target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org" target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a>><br>
*Subject:* Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] Blog post on ICANN's<br>
jurisdiction____<br>
<br>
____<br>
<br>
Nigel,____<br>
<br>
Thanks for your views. One gets faced by two kinds of arguments<br>
in favour of keeping the jurisdictional status quo -- which are<br>
mutually exclusive.____<br>
<br>
(1) ICANN is somehow not subject to the whole range of US law<br>
and executive powers, as any other US organisations is - or at<br>
least it is somehow felt that US law and executive power will<br>
never apply itself over ICANN functioning. ____<br>
<br>
(2) As you argue, ICANN is indeed subject to all US laws and<br>
powers, which might indeed be applied over it as necessary, but<br>
this is a good and a desirable thing. ____<br>
<br>
As we have no move forward at all, we must do it in stages and<br>
remove some arguments off the table which we can mutually agree<br>
to be untenable. So can we now agree that the view (1) above is<br>
simply untrue and naively held by those who forward it. ____<br>
<br>
We can now move to (2). First of all, this means that indeed US<br>
law and executive can impinge upon ICANN's policy implementation<br>
whenever it feels it valid to do so in pursuance of legitimate<br>
US public interest. Meaning, If ICANN makes a policy and does<br>
its implementation which is not in-accordance with US law or<br>
legitimate US executive will, they can "interfere" can cause<br>
those actions to be rolled back on the pain of state's coercive<br>
action. This can be for instance regarding how and what<br>
medicines and health related activities are considered ok by the<br>
concerned US regulator. (Similar examples can be thought of in<br>
practically every sector). Are you with me till here, because I<br>
think I am only making logical deduction over what you seem to<br>
agree with?____<br>
<br>
If so, this indeed establishes as a fact that US jurisdiction<br>
can, as required, impinge upon (which seen from another vantage<br>
is same as, interfere with) ICANN policies and policy<br>
implementation.____<br>
<br>
Which makes the entire exercise of our questionnaire seeking<br>
whether it can so happen rather needless. It of course can. ____<br>
<br>
Lets then not argue or fight over that terrain, where we have<br>
this agreement, about how law and executive power operates vis a<br>
vis organisations subject to their jurisdiction. ____<br>
<br>
That brings us to another terrain - that, as you argue, and<br>
others have here, that it is right, appropriate and needed that<br>
US law and legitimate executive power impinges upon ICANN<br>
functioning as and when required, becuase it is important to<br>
subject everything to the rule of law (and in your and many<br>
other people's views, ICANN can practically ONLY be subject to<br>
rule of US's law).____<br>
<br>
I am happy to discuss this part as long as we do not keep<br>
drifting back to the earlier one whereby there really seems to<br>
be an agreement among most of us that US law and legitimate<br>
executive power can indeed impinge upon or "interfere with"<br>
ICANN's policy or policy implementation work (even if many<br>
consider such interference as being good for ICANN and public<br>
interest) . ____<br>
> of the country of (US) on ICANN is same with that of other<br>
countries (including the ones hosting her regional hubs) because that is<br>
what I think Paul may be implying here.<br>
<br>
As a simple example is a Trump travel Ban and the OFAC stuff compared to<br>
if a travel Ban is placed on Turkey where ICANN has a hub. The former<br>
would have global effects on ICANN than the latter. I for one would be<br>
glad if there can be immunity/exemption for ICANN(used in literary<br>
terms) in such scenarios<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
<br>
Sent from my LG G4<br>
Kindly excuse brevity and typos<br>
<br>
On Feb 13, 2017 7:59 PM, "Paul Rosenzweig"<br>
<<a href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com" target="_blank">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com" target="_blank">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
<br>
Yes, I refute the proposition because it is an alternate fact. Or<br>
put another way – it is wrong.____<br>
<br>
__ __<br>
<br>
The true fact is simple – by virture of doing business in France,<br>
ICANN is subject to French law. France’s privacy authorities might,<br>
for example, attempt to get ICANN to follow their right to be<br>
forgotten. They would fail, I think, but that proposition is no<br>
different in kind than the idea of US antitrust jurisdiction over<br>
ICANN which will not change one iota if ICANN changes its<br>
jurisdiction of incorporation. As I have said before, the only way<br>
in which place of jurisdiction matters significantly (or to use your<br>
words is of a “different order” is regarding law relating to<br>
corporate incorporation and governance. As to that – e.g. the<br>
implementation of ICANN’s actual corporate governance – it would<br>
change significantly if ICANN moved. But, as others have also<br>
noted, the corporate law of California is vital to ICANN’s current<br>
structure.____<br>
<br>
__ __<br>
<br>
As for your question about my professional life it is amusing –<br>
because that is indeed what I do for a living and I have, in fact,<br>
given exactly that advice to German businesses with operations in<br>
the United States. I tell them that if they want to avoid American<br>
law (mostly law relating to cybersecurity) the only way to do so is<br>
to avoid having a business presence in the US. If they want to<br>
forgo the market completely they can do so to avoid American law.<br>
But otherwise they cannot. And, I tell them the exact same thing<br>
about French and Indian law as well. In short, I do this for a<br>
living and yes, I say exactly the same thing to paying clients.____<br>
<br>
__ __<br>
<br>
It is not me who is “falsifying facts” Paraminder. You are making<br>
assertions that have no actual basis in any law that I know of.<br>
Repeatedly asserting them as “facts” does not make them so____<br>
<br>
__ __<br>
<br>
Paul____<br>
<br>
__ __<br>
<br>
Paul Rosenzweig____<br>
<br>
<a href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com" target="_blank">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com" target="_blank">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a>>____<br>
<br>
O: <a href="tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20547-0660" target="_blank">+1 (202) 547-0660</a> <<a href="tel:+1%20202-547-0660" target="_blank">tel:+1%20202-547-0660</a>>____<br>
<br>
M: <a href="tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20329-9650" target="_blank">+1 (202) 329-9650</a> <<a href="tel:+1%20202-329-9650" target="_blank">tel:+1%20202-329-9650</a>>____<br>
<br>
VOIP: <a href="tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20738-1739" target="_blank">+1 (202) 738-1739</a> <<a href="tel:+1%20202-738-1739" target="_blank">tel:+1%20202-738-1739</a>>____<br>
<br>
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<br>
My PGP Key:<br>
<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__keys.mailvelope.com_pks_lookup-3Fop-3Dget-26search-3D0x9A830097CA066684&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=gBJP9BR7SmJmiYPTtMNTO5cs0-iDPOyGn0HBd1gGbLk&e=" target="_blank">
https://keys.mailvelope.com/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9A830097CA066684</a><br>
<<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__keys.mailvelope.com_pks_lookup-3Fop-3Dget-26search-3D0x9A830097CA066684&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=gBJP9BR7SmJmiYPTtMNTO5cs0-iDPOyGn0HBd1gGbLk&e=" target="_blank">https://keys.mailvelope.com/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9A830097CA066684</a>>____<br>
<br>
__ __<br>
<br>
*From:*parminder [mailto:<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>>]<br>
*Sent:* Sunday, February 12, 2017 12:54 AM<br>
*To:* Paul Rosenzweig <<a href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com" target="_blank">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com" target="_blank">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a>>>;<br>
<a href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org" target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org" target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a>><br>
*Subject:* Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] Blog post on ICANN's jurisdiction____<br>
<br>
__ __<br>
<br>
__ __<br>
<br>
On Saturday 11 February 2017 10:54 PM, Paul Rosenzweig wrote:____<br>
<br>
As we have repeatedly noted, the exact same thing is true of<br>
ICANN’s being subject to the laws of India, France and any other<br>
place it does business. ____<br>
<br>
<br>
Paul, and you have missed the repeated response that of course this<br>
is not true (and you know it) -- the implication of jurisdiction of<br>
incorporation of a body, and its impact on its working, is of a<br>
completely different order than that of the jurisdictions where it<br>
may merely conduct some business. Do you refute this proposition?<br>
<br>
Would you in your professional life advice, say, a business<br>
incorporated in Germany but with worldwide business footprint that<br>
the application of German jurisdiction and laws on it -- and the<br>
real life implications of such application -- is more or less the<br>
same as application of jurisdiction and laws of all counties where<br>
it may conduct any business at all? I look forward to a clear and<br>
unambiguous response to this. Thanks.<br>
<br>
If indeed we are to keep falsifying such basic facts, which everyone<br>
knows well, and base our positions on that, there is no way we can<br>
go anywhere with this sub group. We may as well close it up and let<br>
the rapporteur write whatever report he may want to forward. No use<br>
wasting time here in trying to "prove" and reprove and reprove basic<br>
universally known legal and political facts.<br>
<br>
<br>
____<br>
<br>
Your persistence in arguing a strawman Paraminder puts me in<br>
mind of Amartya Sen.____<br>
<br>
<br>
A perceptive book he wrote, but also speaks of Indian humility and<br>
self-deprecation... Wonder why no one ever wrote "The Hegemonic<br>
American"...<br>
<br>
parminder<br>
<br>
<br>
____<br>
<br>
____<br>
<br>
Paul Rosenzweig____<br>
<br>
<a href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com" target="_blank">
paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com" target="_blank">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a>>____<br>
<br>
O: <a href="tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20547-0660" target="_blank">+1 (202) 547-0660</a> <<a href="tel:+1%20202-547-0660" target="_blank">tel:+1%20202-547-0660</a>>____<br>
<br>
M: <a href="tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20329-9650" target="_blank">+1 (202) 329-9650</a> <<a href="tel:+1%20202-329-9650" target="_blank">tel:+1%20202-329-9650</a>>____<br>
<br>
VOIP: <a href="tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20738-1739" target="_blank">+1 (202) 738-1739</a> <<a href="tel:+1%20202-738-1739" target="_blank">tel:+1%20202-738-1739</a>>____<br>
<br>
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<<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.redbranchconsulting.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=1k6KNFdJzQIC6CkW4-cXYamlUd3hWDS-W8MchdaYxlg&e=" target="_blank">http://www.redbranchconsulting.com/</a>>____<br>
<br>
My PGP Key:<br>
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<<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__keys.mailvelope.com_pks_lookup-3Fop-3Dget-26search-3D0x9A830097CA066684&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=gBJP9BR7SmJmiYPTtMNTO5cs0-iDPOyGn0HBd1gGbLk&e=" target="_blank">https://keys.mailvelope.com/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9A830097CA066684</a>>____<br>
<br>
____<br>
<br>
*From:*<a href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a>><br>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a>>] *On Behalf Of<br>
*parminder<br>
*Sent:* Saturday, February 11, 2017 8:46 AM<br>
*To:* <a href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org" target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org" target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a>><br>
*Subject:* Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] Blog post on ICANN's<br>
jurisdiction____<br>
<br>
____<br>
<br>
Nigel,____<br>
<br>
Thanks for your views. One gets faced by two kinds of arguments<br>
in favour of keeping the jurisdictional status quo -- which are<br>
mutually exclusive.____<br>
<br>
(1) ICANN is somehow not subject to the whole range of US law<br>
and executive powers, as any other US organisations is - or at<br>
least it is somehow felt that US law and executive power will<br>
never apply itself over ICANN functioning. ____<br>
<br>
(2) As you argue, ICANN is indeed subject to all US laws and<br>
powers, which might indeed be applied over it as necessary, but<br>
this is a good and a desirable thing. ____<br>
<br>
As we have no move forward at all, we must do it in stages and<br>
remove some arguments off the table which we can mutually agree<br>
to be untenable. So can we now agree that the view (1) above is<br>
simply untrue and naively held by those who forward it. ____<br>
<br>
We can now move to (2). First of all, this means that indeed US<br>
law and executive can impinge upon ICANN's policy implementation<br>
whenever it feels it valid to do so in pursuance of legitimate<br>
US public interest. Meaning, If ICANN makes a policy and does<br>
its implementation which is not in-accordance with US law or<br>
legitimate US executive will, they can "interfere" can cause<br>
those actions to be rolled back on the pain of state's coercive<br>
action. This can be for instance regarding how and what<br>
medicines and health related activities are considered ok by the<br>
concerned US regulator. (Similar examples can be thought of in<br>
practically every sector). Are you with me till here, because I<br>
think I am only making logical deduction over what you seem to<br>
agree with?____<br>
<br>
If so, this indeed establishes as a fact that US jurisdiction<br>
can, as required, impinge upon (which seen from another vantage<br>
is same as, interfere with) ICANN policies and policy<br>
implementation.____<br>
<br>
Which makes the entire exercise of our questionnaire seeking<br>
whether it can so happen rather needless. It of course can. ____<br>
<br>
Lets then not argue or fight over that terrain, where we have<br>
this agreement, about how law and executive power operates vis a<br>
vis organisations subject to their jurisdiction. ____<br>
<br>
That brings us to another terrain - that, as you argue, and<br>
others have here, that it is right, appropriate and needed that<br>
US law and legitimate executive power impinges upon ICANN<br>
functioning as and when required, becuase it is important to<br>
subject everything to the rule of law (and in your and many<br>
other people's views, ICANN can practically ONLY be subject to<br>
rule of US's law).____<br>
<br>
I am happy to discuss this part as long as we do not keep<br>
drifting back to the earlier one whereby there really seems to<br>
be an agreement among most of us that US law and legitimate<br>
executive power can indeed impinge upon or "interfere with"<br>
ICANN's policy or policy implementation work (even if many<br>
consider such interference as being good for ICANN and public<br>
interest) . ____<br>
<br>
Your only problem with immunity seem to come up with regard to<br>
criminally fraudulent activities. You give the examples of IOC<br>
and FIFA but I have not found they having any special criminal<br>
immunities. I may not have looked up well, but did they? Were<br>
they not finally raided by both Swiss and US authorities. On the<br>
other hand there are many international organisations with legal<br>
immunities that have been gooing great global public interest<br>
work without corruption. Interpol hasnt started to take money to<br>
make international warrants disappear, not, more humbly, the<br>
International Fertilizers Development Centre, immunised under<br>
the relevant US Act, and which enters into contracts worth<br>
millions every years for globally distributed projects, has been<br>
known to do so....<br>
<br>
(FIFA and IOC become corrupt because of commercial thinking<br>
completely overpowering public service ethics -- and if ICANN<br>
becomes so it will also be ore likely becuase of this reason.<br>
But et us not get distracted. )<br>
<br>
And if indeed we are so concerned about ICANN's abuse of power<br>
and possible frauds and corruption, we should have let a<br>
stronger and more agile community accountability mechanism get<br>
established, like the membership based one, and with lower<br>
thresholds of triggering community action... That is where the<br>
mistake was made, and can still be corrected down the line. Do<br>
not throw the world at the mercy of US law and executive action<br>
for this purpose, especially when it related to to an<br>
infrastructure which today underpins almost every social system.<br>
This is not just some sports. (No hurt intended to sports fans,<br>
I being one.)<br>
<br>
parminder<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
____<br>
<br>
On Saturday 11 February 2017 02:16 PM, Nigel Roberts wrote:____<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
____<br>
<br>
and innumerable others. In the circumstances, the real<br>
waiver across all<br>
sectors and laws would be seek immunity under the US<br>
International<br>
Organisations Immunity Act. Would you not prefer this<br>
route? If not, why<br>
so? ____<br>
<br>
<br>
Because I do not want ICANN to have immunity.<br>
<br>
I have been involved in this community since before it was<br>
called 'ICANN', including the gTLD-MoU and the IFWP.<br>
<br>
I have seen ICANN behave as an autocrat robber baron and<br>
deprive people of their property.<br>
<br>
Fortunately, we have made great strides since then.<br>
<br>
Accountability work, between 2003 (in the case of ccTLDs) up<br>
to last years' transition, as well as the fact that, both<br>
staff and Board now have personal trust, that was totally<br>
absent 15 years ago.<br>
<br>
But both organisations and personnnel can change.<br>
<br>
Institutional immunity leads to corruption. I do not want<br>
ICANN to become a FIFA, or IOC.<br>
<br>
And the recent .AFRICA case shows, the checks and balances<br>
of the US judicial system appear to work reasonably well (I<br>
personally remain uneasy about the covenant of immunity but<br>
I expect you have no problem with that).<br>
<br>
I trust this explains why some people - and I am one - may<br>
have a diametrically opposed view to yours when it comes to<br>
ICANN immunity.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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<br>
____<br>
<br>
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<br>
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</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"> Your only problem with immunity seem to come up with regard to<br>
criminally fraudulent activities. You give the examples of IOC<br>
and FIFA but I have not found they having any special criminal<br>
immunities. I may not have looked up well, but did they? Were<br>
they not finally raided by both Swiss and US authorities. On the<br>
other hand there are many international organisations with legal<br>
immunities that have been gooing great global public interest<br>
work without corruption. Interpol hasnt started to take money to<br>
make international warrants disappear, not, more humbly, the<br>
International Fertilizers Development Centre, immunised under<br>
the relevant US Act, and which enters into contracts worth<br>
millions every years for globally distributed projects, has been<br>
known to do so....<br>
<br>
(FIFA and IOC become corrupt because of commercial thinking<br>
completely overpowering public service ethics -- and if ICANN<br>
becomes so it will also be ore likely becuase of this reason.<br>
But et us not get distracted. )<br>
<br>
And if indeed we are so concerned about ICANN's abuse of power<br>
and possible frauds and corruption, we should have let a<br>
stronger and more agile community accountability mechanism get<br>
established, like the membership based one, and with lower<br>
thresholds of triggering community action... That is where the<br>
mistake was made, and can still be corrected down the line. Do<br>
not throw the world at the mercy of US law and executive action<br>
for this purpose, especially when it related to to an<br>
infrastructure which today underpins almost every social system.<br>
This is not just some sports. (No hurt intended to sports fans,<br>
I being one.)<br>
<br>
parminder<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
____<br>
<br>
On Saturday 11 February 2017 02:16 PM, Nigel Roberts wrote:____<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
____<br>
<br>
and innumerable others. In the circumstances, the real<br>
waiver across all<br>
sectors and laws would be seek immunity under the US<br>
International<br>
Organisations Immunity Act. Would you not prefer this<br>
route? If not, why<br>
so? ____<br>
<br>
<br>
Because I do not want ICANN to have immunity.<br>
<br>
I have been involved in this community since before it was<br>
called 'ICANN', including the gTLD-MoU and the IFWP.<br>
<br>
I have seen ICANN behave as an autocrat robber baron and<br>
deprive people of their property.<br>
<br>
Fortunately, we have made great strides since then.<br>
<br>
Accountability work, between 2003 (in the case of ccTLDs) up<br>
to last years' transition, as well as the fact that, both<br>
staff and Board now have personal trust, that was totally<br>
absent 15 years ago.<br>
<br>
But both organisations and personnnel can change.<br>
<br>
Institutional immunity leads to corruption. I do not want<br>
ICANN to become a FIFA, or IOC.<br>
<br>
And the recent .AFRICA case shows, the checks and balances<br>
of the US judicial system appear to work reasonably well (I<br>
personally remain uneasy about the covenant of immunity but<br>
I expect you have no problem with that).<br>
<br>
I trust this explains why some people - and I am one - may<br>
have a diametrically opposed view to yours when it comes to<br>
ICANN immunity.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Ws2-jurisdiction mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org" target="_blank">Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org" target="_blank">Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a>><br>
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<br>
____<br>
<br>
__ __<br>
<br>
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</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<pre><span lang="EN-US">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
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