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<font face="Verdana">Becky, apologies for the enormous delay in
responding. Please see inline.. <br>
<br>
</font>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Wednesday 01 March 2017 08:05 PM,
Burr, Becky wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:E5F19D3186A53249905958C49B9AC3329F424C38@STNTEXMB10.cis.neustar.com"
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">If
we assume for the moment that these pose a threat to ICANN
as a practical matter, there would be the same or similar
problems if ICANN was principally headquartered in other
jurisdictions. <br>
</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
These issues will not exist either (1) if ICANN works under
intentional law and not any national law, or (2) ICANN even as
registered under national law (US for instance ) is given
jurisdictional immunity. <br>
<br>
(1) is the more perfect and sustainable (and democratic) solution,
but it would take time, and therefore at the present it is worth
considering and focussing on (2). <br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:E5F19D3186A53249905958C49B9AC3329F424C38@STNTEXMB10.cis.neustar.com"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">
So, I think the question comes down to this:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">1.<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> Given
the fact that laws vary from nation to nation, and that any
nation that has effective jurisdiction over ICANN may
attempt to enforce its laws via ICANN, do the benefits of
constituting ICANN as an international organization in with
privileges and immunities in a particular jurisdiction
outside the US outweigh the disadvantages of doing so? <br>
</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Sure, this is a good assessment to be done collectively. What do you
(or others) think are the disadvantages to of such an arrangements?
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:E5F19D3186A53249905958C49B9AC3329F424C38@STNTEXMB10.cis.neustar.com"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">
(My read as a US lawyer is that ICANN would not qualify for
such status under the US statute.)</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Why when International Fertilizer and Development Corp can get it
ICANN cant -- if may require putting its name in an existign
legislation by a samll amendment perhaps, but that is all Why you
say it cannot, can you please elaborate. I have asked a number of
times that we seek "nuetral outside legal advice on this point. I
think we must, as a key possible direction for us to move. <br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:E5F19D3186A53249905958C49B9AC3329F424C38@STNTEXMB10.cis.neustar.com"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">In
weighing the costs and benefits above, should we not also
acknowledge that even if some country granted ICANN
privileges and immunities, it would continue to have
meaningful and substantial activities in other countries,
including the United States, thus subjecting it national law
anywhere it conducts sufficient business to create long-arm
jurisdiction?
</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
This has been discussed several times. As you have never ever heard
of Indian law and courts taking on ICANN (unlike US which often do)
the fact is that a jurisdiction where an entity is not legally
incorporated (or is incorporated but provided legal immunities) has
very little legal remit on its functioning. In any case, at least
all countries have a similar remit, and therefore that is not such a
problem. It is the enormous inequality which is the problem -
between US's legal control over ICANN and those of other
jurisdictions (which is very little) . <br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:E5F19D3186A53249905958C49B9AC3329F424C38@STNTEXMB10.cis.neustar.com"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Again,
asked in my personal capacity.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org">ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org">mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>parminder<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 01, 2017 12:17 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org">ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] Blog post on
ICANN's jurisdiction<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Greg,
thanks for the below framing. Let me try to put in my
response to it.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">About
(1) below, the problem has not just been a lack of
discipline of people keeping on jumping ahead to likely
remedies. It is as much about that clear problems have been
identified, and they have neither been argued to not exist,
not do we as a group accept them as problems. Ii is this
that causes a stalemate. Lets just take one category of oft
mentioned problems, of the OFAC variety. Many expressions of
this category of problems have been stated here. No one has
made the case that these problems do not exist -- if there
is any such case I am happy to hear it. . But neither we, as
a group,</span>
<span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">have
accepted them as being problems with the current US
jurisdiction of ICANN. That is what causes frustration.
Rather than clearly accepting them as problems that must be
addressed (and I must repeat, this is just one category of
them), the argument we often hear is -- that may be as it
is, but any alternative would be worse. What then is the
option for those who present these problems than to to
actually try to speak about possible alternatives, and how
they can work and not in fact be worse than the current
situation?!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Another
category of problems is with regard to the known seizure of
dotcom domains by US custom authorities for alleged IP
violations by forcing verisign to act as per their orders.
For a gTLD, the order will simply be directed at ICANN. No
one has shown us why and how would US customs treat ICANN
differently than verisign, in pursuance of what it considers
as their legal duty.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">These
seizures by US Customs of domain names for alleged IP
violation, by ordering US organisations that allot and
control them, also directly shows that any other US agency
will do so a similar thing in due enforcement of its
mandate. No argument has been forthcoming why this would not
be so.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Then,
we already have US courts having exerted their jurisdiction
over the question whether ICANN's allocation of domains
names is lawful or not (as per US law). This act of exerting
jurisdiction is a problem enough, for the global public not
contributing to US law, and not willing to be dictated by
it, whatever be the final decision by these courts.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">All
these are problems enough - these are not small matters. Are
we ready to list them as problems accepted by the group to
be so, whether or not there are solutions for them or not,
including whether any proposed solution is better or worse
then the current situation? This is the question to the
group and the chairs. Doing that would be going by the
workplan of identifying problems first before we move to
plausible solutions. The questionnaire we sent out is just
one input into the exercise of identifying and listing
problems, it is not the whole exercise. I think we clearly
agreed to this. The information that we may receive will
complement all that which has already been contributing in
many discussion in this group.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Having said this, I agree with you that at
the present stage it is best that we moved forward with your
option 2.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>parminder <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Tuesday 28 February 2017 10:02 PM,
Greg Shatan wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">All,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Jorge touches on an important point in
terms of our working method: "<span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">immunities
and privileges are something to be discussed if need be
<b>under possible remedies to identified problems." </b></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">That
reflects the working method adopted by the group.
Nonetheless, this discussion of "immunity" has cropped
up several times before the Subgroup has identified any
problem supported by the Subgroup that calls for
immunity as a possible remedy. Sometimes (as now) these
discussions are at significant length and seem to take
up much of the working energy of the Subgroup.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">At
this point, we can do one of two things: </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">(1)
<b>Suspend any further discussion of immunity unless and
until the Subgroup identifies a problem that calls for
immunity as a plausible remedy to that problem</b>.
Problems can be "identified" from items in any of
several sources: proposals from participants in the
Subgroup, Questionnaire responses, the review of ICANN's
litigation, or possibly ICANN Legal's responses to our
questions. An item should not be considered an
"identified problem" until the Subgroup supports that
designation (i.e., an item is proposed and discusse and
the Subgroup supports designating it as a problem for
purposes of this Subgroup).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">(2)
<b>Directly consider and resolve the threshold question
of whether immunity can and should be a remedy that
this Subgroup would recommend.
</b>This question needs to be answered before we move,
if at all, to "subsidiary questions" such as "Is
immunity available to ICANN?", "How does one get such
immunity?", "What does such immunity actually cover?",
"What are the consequences of such immunity?", "Can this
immunity be customized in some fashion?", "Can such
immunity be waived by ICANN (either on a case-by-case
basis or generally)?", "What are the conseqences of such
waiver?," "How can such immunity be challenged or
revoked?", "How would these questions be answered
differently under the laws of the US and under the laws
of a selected set of other jurisdiction?", etc. <b>If
we decide now that immunity is not a remedy this
Subgroup would recommend, these other questions do not
need to be considered.
</b>If we decide that immunity is a remedy this Subgroup
would potentially recommend, then we can seek answers to
those subsidiary questions in an organized process of
the Subgroup, including requesting legal advice.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Option
1 is one that we've tried, but it has not succeeded (at
least not for very long). (As Mark Twain once said,
"Quitting smoking is easy. I've done it hundreds of
times."). If we decide to re-try Option 1, then it will
need to be strictly adhered to (and enforced, if need
be).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Option
2 is one we have flirted with but have never fully
committed to (due to attempts to adhere to Option 1, on
the one hand, and the tendency to mix this threshold
question in with the subsidiary questions, on the other
hand). Escalating these email threads and informal
discussions to a focused Subgroup discussion and
resolution of just the threshold question could greatly
benefit this Subgroup. If we can answer this threshold
question now, then we can either (if we answer "no") put
the immunity question to rest for this Subgroup; or (if
we answer yes), we can suspend further discussions of
the "subsidiary questions" until we identify a problem
that calls for immunity as a plausible remedy.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Either
way, we will be able to move past the immunity question
and devote our current working energy to the litigation
review and analysis, the Questionnaire response review,
identification and discussion of potential problems for
consideration by the Subgroup, and consideration of the
answers from ICANN Legal (when received).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Given
how far and how often we have gone down the path of
the "immunity discussion" in some form, and since we
may actually be honing in on an answer to this
threshold question, I suggest that the Subgroup
strongly consider Option 2.</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I
look forward to your thoughts.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Greg</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 3:42 AM
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Jorge.Cancio@bakom.admin.ch">Jorge.Cancio@bakom.admin.ch</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"
lang="DE-CH">Dear Becky,y </span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"
lang="DE-CH"> </span></span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Apart
from possible initial discussion during the
very early Frankfurt F2F meetings (February
2015… I wasn’t in Frankfurt, but I don’t
recall that this issue had been really
discussed in depth and less excluded from the
ws2 work on “jurisdiction”), I guess we would
need some clear basis in the work stream 1
recommendations, which are the ones which laid
down our community-wide agreements and defined
the scope of work for work stream 2.
</span></span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">My
feeling is that no decision to exclude was
taken, that we still have to look into
potential problems (on the basis of the
ongoing fact-finding exercises) and that
immunities and privileges are something to be
discussed if need be under possible remedies
to identified problems.</span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Kind
regards</span></span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Jorge
</span></span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"
lang="DE">Von:</span></b></span><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"
lang="DE">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org"
target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a>
[mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org"
target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>Im Auftrag von </b>Burr, Becky</span></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"
lang="DE"><br>
<span class="gmailmsg"><b>Gesendet:</b>
Montag, 27. Februar 2017 18:51</span><br>
<span class="gmailmsg"><b>An:</b> Seun
Ojedeji <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com"
target="_blank">seun.ojedeji@gmail.com</a>></span><br>
<span class="gmailmsg"><b>Cc:</b>
ws2-jurisdiction <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org"
target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a>></span><br>
<span class="gmailmsg"><b>Betreff:</b> Re:
[Ws2-jurisdiction] Blog post on ICANN's
jurisdiction</span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
lang="DE-CH"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Sure,
will have to go back through the F2F meeting
transcript, but I think the discussion took
place in the first F2F meeting in Frankfurt in
January 2015, with one of the outside experts
who was pushing the idea
</span></span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b></span><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
Seun Ojedeji [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com"
target="_blank">mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com</a>]
</span></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><br>
<span class="gmailmsg"><b>Sent:</b> Monday,
February 27, 2017 11:38 AM</span><br>
<span class="gmailmsg"><b>To:</b> Burr, Becky
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Becky.Burr@neustar.biz"
target="_blank">Becky.Burr@neustar.biz</a>></span><br>
<span class="gmailmsg"><b>Cc:</b> Mueller,
Milton L <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:milton@gatech.edu"
target="_blank">milton@gatech.edu</a>>;
ws2-jurisdiction <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org"
target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a>>;
parminder <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net"
target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>></span><br>
<span class="gmailmsg"><b>Subject:</b> Re:
[Ws2-jurisdiction] Blog post on ICANN's
jurisdiction</span></span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"> </span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg">On 27 Feb 2017 22:26,
"Burr, Becky" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Becky.Burr@neustar.biz"
target="_blank">Becky.Burr@neustar.biz</a>>
wrote:</span><span class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">.</span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">My
larger point remains – this
question (re privileges and
immunities) was asked and
answered in WS1. </span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg">SO: I for one would
appreciate a reference to this for the
record so I can confirm if we are talking
about similar context. Would you mind
providing a reference where the question and
response was documented Becky?</span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"> </span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg">Thanks</span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid
#E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in
0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b></span><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org"
target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a>
[mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org"
target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mueller,
Milton L</span></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><br>
<span class="gmailmsg"><b>Sent:</b>
Saturday, February 25, 2017
10:06 AM</span><br>
<span class="gmailmsg"><b>To:</b>
parminder <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net"
target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>>;
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org"
target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a></span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><br>
<span class="gmailmsg"><b>Subject:</b>
Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] Blog
post on ICANN's jurisdiction</span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"> </span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="color:#1F497D">></span>Yes,
it needs action by both the
Congress and the President of
the US.
</span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">>
</span>The former will need to
just amend some existing laws
related to some </span>
<span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">>
</span>international orgs and
add ICANN somewhere in it.
Simple work. And </span>
<span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">></span>the
President has to issue a decree
under the Immunities Act.
</span><br>
<br>
<span class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">So
in the name of making ICANN
more independent of the US
government, you want to
subject it to what would
undoubtedly be a politically
contentious and years-long
process of legislation by the
U.S. Congress
(Republican-dominated) and
would require the agreement a
President whose platform vowed
to never let ICANN be free of
the U.S. government.
</span></span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Really
smart.
</span></span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Does
the word “backfire” have any
meaning to non-Americans? If
not, check out definition #2
here: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.google.com_webhp-3Fsourceid-3Dchrome-2Dinstant-26ion-3D1-26espv-3D2-26ie-3DUTF-2D8-23q-3Dbackfire-2Bdefinition-26-2A&d=DwMFAg&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=lFzxyNZsqPq3dQCf2tQLLZwXRtWJNr01a16Lb6Zo_d8&s=2vjNdjcujIA_f13AAKVmN8mF_RYRvQZJ-bBgxoQ4Dd8&e="
target="_blank">
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=backfire+definition&*</a></span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Dr.
Milton L. Mueller</span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Professor,
School of Public Policy</span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Georgia
Institute of Technology</span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div
style="border:none;border-left:solid
blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
4.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"> </span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0070C0;background:white">ICANN
is not a treaty-based
organization,
</span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
<span class="gmailmsg">This is
not required. </span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0070C0;background:white">nor
is it conducting work
normally carried out by an
intergovernmental
organization.</span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
<span class="gmailmsg">As shown
by Jorge, this is not true.</span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0070C0;background:white">
Turning it into a
treaty-based organization
</span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
<span class="gmailmsg">No need
to turn it into treaty based
org to get US immunity.
</span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0070C0;background:white">would
seem to me to violate the
Bylaws-mandated Core Value
that requires ICANN to <b><i>remain
rooted in the private
sector</i></b>. </span>
</span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
<span class="gmailmsg">There is
a linguistic problem here.
Private sector is understood
differently in the US than
almost everywhere else. In the
US, it is just to be outside
government, which ICANN is.
Outside the US, it mostly mean
for profit sector. ICANN is
indeed outside government(s),
and there is no proposal to
change that. But it is also
equally a non profit . That
also I hope is not intended to
be changed.
</span><br>
<br>
<span class="gmailmsg">In any
case, whether non profit or
for profit, everything is
always subject to some kind
of governmental jurisdiction.
Being so subject does not
change its non profit or even
for profit nature. So the
point is really moot.
</span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0070C0;background:white">This
language was contested on
numerous occasions by
members of the GAC, and
the community repeatedly
insisted on retaining this
orientation. I think that
there can be little
argument that the
community affirmatively
committed to maintaining
this status through the
Accountability work.
</span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
<span class="gmailmsg">The
community asked this group to
consider the issue of US
jurisdiction over ICANN. And a
question can only be
considered if it is open -
-unless, sorry to use that
word, we are all mutually and
together fooling ourselves,
and doing discussions that
really have no meaning or
purpose. I really hope this is
not the case - -although, I
must admit, despair often does
arises that it may actually
may be the case.</span><br>
<br>
<span class="gmailmsg">parminder
</span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0070C0;background:white"> </span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0070C0;background:white"> </span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0070C0;background:white"> </span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0070C0;background:white"> </span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#333333;background:white"> </span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b></span><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Seun
Ojedeji</span></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><br>
<span class="gmailmsg"><b>Sent:</b>
Tuesday, February 14, 2017
1:43 PM</span><br>
<span class="gmailmsg"><b>To:</b>
Greg Shatan <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com"
target="_blank">
<gregshatanipc@gmail.com></a></span><br>
<span class="gmailmsg"><b>Cc:</b>
ws2-jurisdiction <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org"
target="_blank">
<ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org></a></span><br>
<span class="gmailmsg"><b>Subject:</b>
Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction]
Blog post on ICANN's
jurisdiction</span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"> </span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg">Sent
from my LG G4</span><br>
<span class="gmailmsg">Kindly
excuse brevity and
typos</span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"> </span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="msonormal0"><span
class="gmailmsg">On
Feb 14, 2017 12:29
PM, "Greg Shatan"
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in
0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p
class="msonormal0"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Seun,</span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="msonormal0"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="msonormal0"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#500050">You
say that a
"Trump travel
Ban . . .
compared to</span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p
class="msonormal0"><span
style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#500050"><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">if
a travel Ban
is placed on
Turkey where
ICANN has a
hub. The
former</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">would
have global
effects on
ICANN than the
latter." </span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="msonormal0"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="msonormal0"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#500050">Can
you clarify
how a travel
ban into the
US from a list
of countries
would "have
global effects
on ICANN" and
a travel ban
into Turkey
from a list of
countries not
have a similar
type of
effect? Is
this just
because more
people will
want to travel
to ICANN's
operations in
the US than
those in
Turkey?
</span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"> </span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg">SO:
It's not really because
more people "want" to,
it's because for ICANN
it may be prudent at
times to have the
meeting in the US. When
I say meeting, I am not
just referring to the 3
global meetings alone.</span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"> </span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in
0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p
class="msonormal0"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#500050">Why
is it a global
effect on
ICANN if it
only concerns
a small number
of countries?</span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"> </span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg">SO:
Sometime ago I was
reading an article
mentioning whether I*
organisations should
cancel subsequent
meetings in the US (even
though I personally do
not think it's worth it
to cancel already
planned Puerto Rico
meeting) but imagine the
global effects if such
happen. Beyond that such
action by US govt also
cause unintended(or
perhaps unnecessary)
consequences/reactions.
Like it won't be out of
scope for an African
govt who is already
pissed off with
.Africa[1] and second
level 2 character to
also indicate the ban as
an exhibit to drive a
point. </span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"> </span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg">Just
checkout how many ICANN
related articles that
connects to the ban has
been published lately so
you think similar level
of response would have
happened globally if the
travel ban happened in
Turkey? I doubt. So it's
not always about the few
ban countries, it's
about the global
reaction.</span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"> </span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg">For
clarity if ICANN were
incorporated in Turkey
and same banned happen,
the global effect would
have still be similar to
that of the US at
present. So the point is
not that it may not have
happened if ICANN was
incorporated in Turkey
(or Switzerland as Paul
puts it) but the point
is that it is unfair to
say the effects to ICANN
ORG/community in both
scenarios is the same</span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"> </span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg">Regards</span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg">1.
Ofcourse I recognise
there is not light at
the end of the tunnel.</span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in
0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p
class="msonormal0"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="msonormal0"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;color:#500050">[Please
note that I
personally do
not support
the travel
ban, nor do I
minimize the
effects it has
had and
continues to
have on
citizens of
those
countries.]</span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="msonormal0"><span
class="gmailmsg"> </span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="msonormal0"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;color:#500050">Thanks!</span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="msonormal0"><span
class="gmailmsg"> </span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="msonormal0"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;color:#500050">Greg</span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="msonormal0"><span
class="gmailmsg"><span style="color:#888888"> </span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="msonormal0"><span
style="color:#888888"><br clear="all">
</span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="gmailmsg1"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" name="m_1409317674350097773_m_-184660149963931"></a><span
class="gmailmsg"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#002E62">Greg
Shatan</span></b></span><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#002E62"><br>
</span></b><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">C:
917-816-6428</span></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">S:
gsshatan</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">Phone-to-Skype: 646-845-9428</span><br>
</span><span
class="gmailmsg"><span
style="color:#888888"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com"
target="_blank"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1155CC">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</span></a></span></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="msonormal0"><span
class="gmailmsg"> </span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p
class="msonormal0"><span
class="gmailmsg">On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 6:17 AM, Seun Ojedeji <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com" target="_blank">seun.ojedeji@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0in
0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p
class="msonormal0"><span
class="gmailmsg">Thanks Nigel, I am not asking about an overall immunity
for ICANN but
I am talking
about specific
scenario like
the ones I
have
indicated.
Maybe the
right word
isn't
immunity.</span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p
class="msonormal0"><span
class="gmailmsg"> </span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="msonormal0"><span
class="gmailmsg">Cheers!</span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p
class="msonormal0"><span
class="gmailmsg">Sent from my LG G4</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">Kindly
excuse brevity
and typos</span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="msonormal0"><span
class="gmailmsg"> </span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p
class="msonormal0"><span
class="gmailmsg">On Feb 14, 2017 11:45 AM, "Nigel Roberts" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nigel@channelisles.net" target="_blank">nigel@channelisles.net</a>>
wrote:</span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0in
0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p
class="msonormal0"><span
class="gmailmsg">I think you miss the point about immunity.</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">It's
means "ICANN
can do what it
likes and
can't be
sued".</span><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">On
14/02/17
09:23, Seun
Ojedeji wrote:</span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0in
0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p
class="msonormal0"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span class="gmailmsg">Hi,</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">I
am not a
lawyer but it
doesn't sound
accurate to
say that the
effect</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">of
the country
of (US) on
ICANN is same
with that of
other</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">countries
(including the
ones hosting
her regional
hubs) because
that is</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">what
I think Paul
may be
implying here.</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">As
a simple
example is a
Trump travel
Ban and the
OFAC stuff
compared to</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">if
a travel Ban
is placed on
Turkey where
ICANN has a
hub. The
former</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">would
have global
effects on
ICANN than the
latter. I for
one would be</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">glad
if there can
be
immunity/exemption
for ICANN(used
in literary</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">terms)
in such
scenarios</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">Regards</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">Sent
from my LG G4</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">Kindly
excuse brevity
and typos</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">On
Feb 13, 2017
7:59 PM, "Paul
Rosenzweig"</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com"
target="_blank">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a></span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg"><mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com"
target="_blank">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a>>>
wrote:</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
Yes, I
refute the
proposition
because it is
an alternate
fact. Or</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
put another
way – it is
wrong.____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
__ __</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
The true
fact is simple
– by virture
of doing
business in
France,</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
ICANN is
subject to
French law.
France’s
privacy
authorities
might,</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
for example,
attempt to get
ICANN to
follow their
right to be</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
forgotten.
They would
fail, I think,
but that
proposition is
no</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
different in
kind than the
idea of US
antitrust
jurisdiction
over</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
ICANN which
will not
change one
iota if ICANN
changes its</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
jurisdiction
of
incorporation.
As I have said
before, the
only way</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
in which
place of
jurisdiction
matters
significantly
(or to use
your</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
words is of
a “different
order” is
regarding law
relating to</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
corporate
incorporation
and
governance.
As to that –
e.g. the</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
implementation
of ICANN’s
actual
corporate
governance –
it would</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
change
significantly
if ICANN
moved. But,
as others have
also</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
noted, the
corporate law
of California
is vital to
ICANN’s
current</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
structure.____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
__ __</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
As for your
question about
my
professional
life it is
amusing –</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
because that
is indeed what
I do for a
living and I
have, in fact,</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
given
exactly that
advice to
German
businesses
with
operations in</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
the United
States. I
tell them that
if they want
to avoid
American</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
law (mostly
law relating
to
cybersecurity)
the only way
to do so is</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
to avoid
having a
business
presence in
the US. If
they want to</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
forgo the
market
completely
they can do so
to avoid
American law.</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
But
otherwise they
cannot. And,
I tell them
the exact same
thing</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
about French
and Indian law
as well. In
short, I do
this for a</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
living and
yes, I say
exactly the
same thing to
paying
clients.____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
__ __</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
It is not me
who is
“falsifying
facts”
Paraminder.
You are making</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
assertions
that have no
actual basis
in any law
that I know
of.</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
Repeatedly
asserting them
as “facts”
does not make
them so____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
__ __</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
Paul____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
__ __</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
Paul
Rosenzweig____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com" target="_blank">
paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a></span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
<mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com"
target="_blank">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a>>____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
O: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20547-0660" target="_blank">
+1 (202)
547-0660</a>
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:+1%20202-547-0660" target="_blank">tel:+1%20202-547-0660</a>>____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
M: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20329-9650" target="_blank">
+1 (202)
329-9650</a>
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:+1%20202-329-9650" target="_blank">tel:+1%20202-329-9650</a>>____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
VOIP: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20738-1739" target="_blank">
+1 (202)
738-1739</a>
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:+1%20202-738-1739" target="_blank">tel:+1%20202-738-1739</a>>____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.redbranchconsulting.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=SW0awN355LgKou0VH8FoTnUMVW3Ew72doP7GYG8HOWw&e="
target="_blank">
www.redbranchconsulting.com</a> <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.redbranchconsulting.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=1k6KNFdJzQIC6CkW4-cXYamlUd3hWDS-W8MchdaYxlg&e="
target="_blank">http://www.redbranchconsulting.com/</a>>____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
My PGP Key:</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__keys.mailvelope.com_pks_lookup-3Fop-3Dget-26search-3D0x9A830097CA066684&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=gBJP9BR7SmJmiYPTtMNTO5cs0-iDPOyGn0HBd1gGbLk&e="
target="_blank">
https://keys.mailvelope.com/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9A830097CA066684</a></span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__keys.mailvelope.com_pks_lookup-3Fop-3Dget-26search-3D0x9A830097CA066684&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=gBJP9BR7SmJmiYPTtMNTO5cs0-iDPOyGn0HBd1gGbLk&e="
target="_blank">https://keys.mailvelope.com/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9A830097CA066684</a>>____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
__ __</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
*From:*parminder
[mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a></span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
<mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net"
target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>>]</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
*Sent:*
Sunday,
February 12,
2017 12:54 AM</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
*To:* Paul
Rosenzweig
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com" target="_blank">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a></span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
<mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com"
target="_blank">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a>>>;</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org" target="_blank">
ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a> <mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org"
target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a>></span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
*Subject:*
Re:
[Ws2-jurisdiction]
Blog post on
ICANN's
jurisdiction____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
__ __</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
__ __</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
On Saturday
11 February
2017 10:54 PM,
Paul
Rosenzweig
wrote:____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
As we
have
repeatedly
noted, the
exact same
thing is true
of</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
ICANN’s
being subject
to the laws of
India, France
and any other</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
place it
does business.
____</span><br>
<br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
Paul, and
you have
missed the
repeated
response that
of course this</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
is not true
(and you know
it) -- the
implication of
jurisdiction
of</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
incorporation
of a body, and
its impact on
its working,
is of a</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
completely
different
order than
that of the
jurisdictions
where it</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
may merely
conduct some
business. Do
you refute
this
proposition?</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
Would you in
your
professional
life advice,
say, a
business</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
incorporated
in Germany but
with worldwide
business
footprint that</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
the
application of
German
jurisdiction
and laws on it
-- and the</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
real life
implications
of such
application --
is more or
less the</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
same as
application of
jurisdiction
and laws of
all counties
where</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
it may
conduct any
business at
all? I look
forward to a
clear and</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
unambiguous
response to
this. Thanks.</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
If indeed we
are to keep
falsifying
such basic
facts, which
everyone</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
knows well,
and base our
positions on
that, there is
no way we can</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
go anywhere
with this sub
group. We may
as well close
it up and let</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
the
rapporteur
write whatever
report he may
want to
forward. No
use</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
wasting time
here in trying
to "prove" and
reprove and
reprove basic</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
universally
known legal
and political
facts.</span><br>
<br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
Your
persistence in
arguing a
strawman
Paraminder
puts me in</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
mind of
Amartya
Sen.____</span><br>
<br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
A perceptive
book he wrote,
but also
speaks of
Indian
humility and</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
self-deprecation...
Wonder why no
one ever wrote
"The Hegemonic</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
American"...</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
parminder</span><br>
<br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
Paul
Rosenzweig____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com" target="_blank">
paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a></span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
<mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com"
target="_blank">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a>>____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
O: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20547-0660" target="_blank">
+1 (202)
547-0660</a>
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:+1%20202-547-0660" target="_blank">tel:+1%20202-547-0660</a>>____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
M: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20329-9650" target="_blank">
+1 (202)
329-9650</a>
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:+1%20202-329-9650" target="_blank">tel:+1%20202-329-9650</a>>____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
VOIP: <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20738-1739"
target="_blank">
+1 (202)
738-1739</a>
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:+1%20202-738-1739" target="_blank">tel:+1%20202-738-1739</a>>____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.redbranchconsulting.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=SW0awN355LgKou0VH8FoTnUMVW3Ew72doP7GYG8HOWw&e="
target="_blank">
www.redbranchconsulting.com</a></span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.redbranchconsulting.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=1k6KNFdJzQIC6CkW4-cXYamlUd3hWDS-W8MchdaYxlg&e="
target="_blank">http://www.redbranchconsulting.com/</a>>____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
My PGP
Key:</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__keys.mailvelope.com_pks_lookup-3Fop-3Dget-26search-3D0x9A830097CA066684&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=gBJP9BR7SmJmiYPTtMNTO5cs0-iDPOyGn0HBd1gGbLk&e="
target="_blank">
https://keys.mailvelope.com/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9A830097CA066684</a></span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__keys.mailvelope.com_pks_lookup-3Fop-3Dget-26search-3D0x9A830097CA066684&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=gBJP9BR7SmJmiYPTtMNTO5cs0-iDPOyGn0HBd1gGbLk&e="
target="_blank">https://keys.mailvelope.com/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9A830097CA066684</a>>____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
*From:*<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org"
target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a></span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
<mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org"
target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a>></span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
[mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org"
target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a></span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
<mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org"
target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a>>] *On Behalf
Of</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
*parminder</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
*Sent:*
Saturday,
February 11,
2017 8:46 AM</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
*To:* <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org"
target="_blank">
ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a> <mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org"
target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a>></span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
*Subject:* Re:
[Ws2-jurisdiction] Blog post on ICANN's</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
jurisdiction____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
Nigel,____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
Thanks
for your
views. One
gets faced by
two kinds of
arguments</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
in
favour of
keeping the
jurisdictional
status quo --
which are</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
mutually
exclusive.____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
(1)
ICANN is
somehow not
subject to the
whole range of
US law</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
and
executive
powers, as any
other US
organisations
is - or at</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
least it
is somehow
felt that US
law and
executive
power will</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
never
apply itself
over ICANN
functioning.
____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
(2) As
you argue,
ICANN is
indeed subject
to all US laws
and</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
powers,
which might
indeed be
applied over
it as
necessary, but</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
this is
a good and a
desirable
thing. ____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
As we
have no move
forward at
all, we must
do it in
stages and</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
remove
some arguments
off the table
which we can
mutually agree</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
to be
untenable. So
can we now
agree that the
view (1) above
is</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
simply
untrue and
naively held
by those who
forward it.
____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
We can
now move to
(2). First of
all, this
means that
indeed US</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
law and
executive can
impinge upon
ICANN's policy
implementation</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
whenever
it feels it
valid to do so
in pursuance
of legitimate</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
US
public
interest.
Meaning, If
ICANN makes a
policy and
does</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
its
implementation
which is not
in-accordance
with US law or</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
legitimate US
executive
will, they can
"interfere"
can cause</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
those
actions to be
rolled back on
the pain of
state's
coercive</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
action.
This can be
for instance
regarding how
and what</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
medicines and
health related
activities are
considered ok
by the</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
concerned US
regulator.
(Similar
examples can
be thought of
in</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
practically
every sector).
Are you with
me till here,
because I</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
think I
am only making
logical
deduction over
what you seem
to</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
agree
with?____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
If so,
this indeed
establishes as
a fact that US
jurisdiction</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
can, as
required,
impinge upon
(which seen
from another
vantage</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
is same
as, interfere
with) ICANN
policies and
policy</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
implementation.____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
Which
makes the
entire
exercise of
our
questionnaire
seeking</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
whether
it can so
happen rather
needless. It
of course can.
____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
Lets
then not argue
or fight over
that terrain,
where we have</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
this
agreement,
about how law
and executive
power operates
vis a</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
vis
organisations
subject to
their
jurisdiction.
____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
That
brings us to
another
terrain -
that, as you
argue, and</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
others
have here,
that it is
right,
appropriate
and needed
that</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
US law
and legitimate
executive
power impinges
upon ICANN</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
functioning as
and when
required,
becuase it is
important to</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
subject
everything to
the rule of
law (and in
your and many</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
other
people's
views, ICANN
can
practically
ONLY be
subject to</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
rule of
US's law).____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
I am
happy to
discuss this
part as long
as we do not
keep</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
drifting
back to the
earlier one
whereby there
really seems
to</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
be an
agreement
among most of
us that US law
and legitimate</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
executive
power can
indeed impinge
upon or
"interfere
with"</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
ICANN's
policy or
policy
implementation
work (even if
many</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
consider
such
interference
as being good
for ICANN and
public</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
interest) .
____</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">>
of the country
of (US) on
ICANN is same
with that of
other</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">countries
(including the
ones hosting
her regional
hubs) because
that is</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">what
I think Paul
may be
implying here.</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">As
a simple
example is a
Trump travel
Ban and the
OFAC stuff
compared to</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">if
a travel Ban
is placed on
Turkey where
ICANN has a
hub. The
former</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">would
have global
effects on
ICANN than the
latter. I for
one would be</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">glad
if there can
be
immunity/exemption
for ICANN(used
in literary</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">terms)
in such
scenarios</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">Regards</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">Sent
from my LG G4</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">Kindly
excuse brevity
and typos</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">On
Feb 13, 2017
7:59 PM, "Paul
Rosenzweig"</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com"
target="_blank">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a></span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg"><mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com"
target="_blank">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a>>>
wrote:</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
Yes, I
refute the
proposition
because it is
an alternate
fact. Or</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
put another
way – it is
wrong.____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
__ __</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
The true
fact is simple
– by virture
of doing
business in
France,</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
ICANN is
subject to
French law.
France’s
privacy
authorities
might,</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
for example,
attempt to get
ICANN to
follow their
right to be</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
forgotten.
They would
fail, I think,
but that
proposition is
no</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
different in
kind than the
idea of US
antitrust
jurisdiction
over</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
ICANN which
will not
change one
iota if ICANN
changes its</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
jurisdiction
of
incorporation.
As I have said
before, the
only way</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
in which
place of
jurisdiction
matters
significantly
(or to use
your</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
words is of
a “different
order” is
regarding law
relating to</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
corporate
incorporation
and
governance.
As to that –
e.g. the</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
implementation
of ICANN’s
actual
corporate
governance –
it would</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
change
significantly
if ICANN
moved. But,
as others have
also</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
noted, the
corporate law
of California
is vital to
ICANN’s
current</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
structure.____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
__ __</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
As for your
question about
my
professional
life it is
amusing –</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
because that
is indeed what
I do for a
living and I
have, in fact,</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
given
exactly that
advice to
German
businesses
with
operations in</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
the United
States. I
tell them that
if they want
to avoid
American</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
law (mostly
law relating
to
cybersecurity)
the only way
to do so is</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
to avoid
having a
business
presence in
the US. If
they want to</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
forgo the
market
completely
they can do so
to avoid
American law.</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
But
otherwise they
cannot. And,
I tell them
the exact same
thing</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
about French
and Indian law
as well. In
short, I do
this for a</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
living and
yes, I say
exactly the
same thing to
paying
clients.____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
__ __</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
It is not me
who is
“falsifying
facts”
Paraminder.
You are making</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
assertions
that have no
actual basis
in any law
that I know
of.</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
Repeatedly
asserting them
as “facts”
does not make
them so____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
__ __</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
Paul____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
__ __</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
Paul
Rosenzweig____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com" target="_blank">
paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a></span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
<mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com"
target="_blank">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a>>____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
O: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20547-0660" target="_blank">
+1 (202)
547-0660</a>
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:+1%20202-547-0660" target="_blank">tel:+1%20202-547-0660</a>>____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
M: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20329-9650" target="_blank">
+1 (202)
329-9650</a>
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:+1%20202-329-9650" target="_blank">tel:+1%20202-329-9650</a>>____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
VOIP: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20738-1739" target="_blank">
+1 (202)
738-1739</a>
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:+1%20202-738-1739" target="_blank">tel:+1%20202-738-1739</a>>____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.redbranchconsulting.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=SW0awN355LgKou0VH8FoTnUMVW3Ew72doP7GYG8HOWw&e="
target="_blank">
www.redbranchconsulting.com</a> <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.redbranchconsulting.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=1k6KNFdJzQIC6CkW4-cXYamlUd3hWDS-W8MchdaYxlg&e="
target="_blank">http://www.redbranchconsulting.com/</a>>____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
My PGP Key:</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__keys.mailvelope.com_pks_lookup-3Fop-3Dget-26search-3D0x9A830097CA066684&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=gBJP9BR7SmJmiYPTtMNTO5cs0-iDPOyGn0HBd1gGbLk&e="
target="_blank">
https://keys.mailvelope.com/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9A830097CA066684</a></span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__keys.mailvelope.com_pks_lookup-3Fop-3Dget-26search-3D0x9A830097CA066684&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=gBJP9BR7SmJmiYPTtMNTO5cs0-iDPOyGn0HBd1gGbLk&e="
target="_blank">https://keys.mailvelope.com/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9A830097CA066684</a>>____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
__ __</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
*From:*parminder
[mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a></span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
<mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net"
target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>>]</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
*Sent:*
Sunday,
February 12,
2017 12:54 AM</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
*To:* Paul
Rosenzweig
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com" target="_blank">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a></span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
<mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com"
target="_blank">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a>>>;</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org" target="_blank">
ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a> <mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org"
target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a>></span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
*Subject:*
Re:
[Ws2-jurisdiction]
Blog post on
ICANN's
jurisdiction____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
__ __</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
__ __</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
On Saturday
11 February
2017 10:54 PM,
Paul
Rosenzweig
wrote:____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
As we
have
repeatedly
noted, the
exact same
thing is true
of</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
ICANN’s
being subject
to the laws of
India, France
and any other</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
place it
does business.
____</span><br>
<br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
Paul, and
you have
missed the
repeated
response that
of course this</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
is not true
(and you know
it) -- the
implication of
jurisdiction
of</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
incorporation
of a body, and
its impact on
its working,
is of a</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
completely
different
order than
that of the
jurisdictions
where it</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
may merely
conduct some
business. Do
you refute
this
proposition?</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
Would you in
your
professional
life advice,
say, a
business</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
incorporated
in Germany but
with worldwide
business
footprint that</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
the
application of
German
jurisdiction
and laws on it
-- and the</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
real life
implications
of such
application --
is more or
less the</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
same as
application of
jurisdiction
and laws of
all counties
where</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
it may
conduct any
business at
all? I look
forward to a
clear and</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
unambiguous
response to
this. Thanks.</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
If indeed we
are to keep
falsifying
such basic
facts, which
everyone</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
knows well,
and base our
positions on
that, there is
no way we can</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
go anywhere
with this sub
group. We may
as well close
it up and let</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
the
rapporteur
write whatever
report he may
want to
forward. No
use</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
wasting time
here in trying
to "prove" and
reprove and
reprove basic</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
universally
known legal
and political
facts.</span><br>
<br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
Your
persistence in
arguing a
strawman
Paraminder
puts me in</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
mind of
Amartya
Sen.____</span><br>
<br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
A perceptive
book he wrote,
but also
speaks of
Indian
humility and</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
self-deprecation...
Wonder why no
one ever wrote
"The Hegemonic</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
American"...</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
parminder</span><br>
<br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
Paul
Rosenzweig____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com" target="_blank">
paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a></span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
<mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com"
target="_blank">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</a>>____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
O: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20547-0660" target="_blank">
+1 (202)
547-0660</a>
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:+1%20202-547-0660" target="_blank">tel:+1%20202-547-0660</a>>____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
M: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20329-9650" target="_blank">
+1 (202)
329-9650</a>
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:+1%20202-329-9650" target="_blank">tel:+1%20202-329-9650</a>>____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
VOIP: <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:%2B1%20%28202%29%20738-1739"
target="_blank">
+1 (202)
738-1739</a>
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:+1%20202-738-1739" target="_blank">tel:+1%20202-738-1739</a>>____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.redbranchconsulting.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=SW0awN355LgKou0VH8FoTnUMVW3Ew72doP7GYG8HOWw&e="
target="_blank">
www.redbranchconsulting.com</a></span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.redbranchconsulting.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=1k6KNFdJzQIC6CkW4-cXYamlUd3hWDS-W8MchdaYxlg&e="
target="_blank">http://www.redbranchconsulting.com/</a>>____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
My PGP
Key:</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__keys.mailvelope.com_pks_lookup-3Fop-3Dget-26search-3D0x9A830097CA066684&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=gBJP9BR7SmJmiYPTtMNTO5cs0-iDPOyGn0HBd1gGbLk&e="
target="_blank">
https://keys.mailvelope.com/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9A830097CA066684</a></span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__keys.mailvelope.com_pks_lookup-3Fop-3Dget-26search-3D0x9A830097CA066684&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=gBJP9BR7SmJmiYPTtMNTO5cs0-iDPOyGn0HBd1gGbLk&e="
target="_blank">https://keys.mailvelope.com/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9A830097CA066684</a>>____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
*From:*<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org"
target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a></span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
<mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org"
target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a>></span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
[mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org"
target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a></span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
<mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org"
target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a>>] *On Behalf
Of</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
*parminder</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
*Sent:*
Saturday,
February 11,
2017 8:46 AM</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
*To:* <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org"
target="_blank">
ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a> <mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org"
target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a>></span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
*Subject:* Re:
[Ws2-jurisdiction] Blog post on ICANN's</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
jurisdiction____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
Nigel,____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
Thanks
for your
views. One
gets faced by
two kinds of
arguments</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
in
favour of
keeping the
jurisdictional
status quo --
which are</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
mutually
exclusive.____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
(1)
ICANN is
somehow not
subject to the
whole range of
US law</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
and
executive
powers, as any
other US
organisations
is - or at</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
least it
is somehow
felt that US
law and
executive
power will</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
never
apply itself
over ICANN
functioning.
____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
(2) As
you argue,
ICANN is
indeed subject
to all US laws
and</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
powers,
which might
indeed be
applied over
it as
necessary, but</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
this is
a good and a
desirable
thing. ____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
As we
have no move
forward at
all, we must
do it in
stages and</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
remove
some arguments
off the table
which we can
mutually agree</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
to be
untenable. So
can we now
agree that the
view (1) above
is</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
simply
untrue and
naively held
by those who
forward it.
____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
We can
now move to
(2). First of
all, this
means that
indeed US</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
law and
executive can
impinge upon
ICANN's policy
implementation</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
whenever
it feels it
valid to do so
in pursuance
of legitimate</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
US
public
interest.
Meaning, If
ICANN makes a
policy and
does</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
its
implementation
which is not
in-accordance
with US law or</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
legitimate US
executive
will, they can
"interfere"
can cause</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
those
actions to be
rolled back on
the pain of
state's
coercive</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
action.
This can be
for instance
regarding how
and what</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
medicines and
health related
activities are
considered ok
by the</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
concerned US
regulator.
(Similar
examples can
be thought of
in</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
practically
every sector).
Are you with
me till here,
because I</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
think I
am only making
logical
deduction over
what you seem
to</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
agree
with?____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
If so,
this indeed
establishes as
a fact that US
jurisdiction</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
can, as
required,
impinge upon
(which seen
from another
vantage</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
is same
as, interfere
with) ICANN
policies and
policy</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
implementation.____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
Which
makes the
entire
exercise of
our
questionnaire
seeking</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
whether
it can so
happen rather
needless. It
of course can.
____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
Lets
then not argue
or fight over
that terrain,
where we have</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
this
agreement,
about how law
and executive
power operates
vis a</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
vis
organisations
subject to
their
jurisdiction.
____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
That
brings us to
another
terrain -
that, as you
argue, and</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
others
have here,
that it is
right,
appropriate
and needed
that</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
US law
and legitimate
executive
power impinges
upon ICANN</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
functioning as
and when
required,
becuase it is
important to</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
subject
everything to
the rule of
law (and in
your and many</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
other
people's
views, ICANN
can
practically
ONLY be
subject to</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
rule of
US's law).____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
I am
happy to
discuss this
part as long
as we do not
keep</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
drifting
back to the
earlier one
whereby there
really seems
to</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
be an
agreement
among most of
us that US law
and legitimate</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
executive
power can
indeed impinge
upon or
"interfere
with"</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
ICANN's
policy or
policy
implementation
work (even if
many</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
consider
such
interference
as being good
for ICANN and
public</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
interest) .
____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
Your
only problem
with immunity
seem to come
up with regard
to</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
criminally
fraudulent
activities.
You give the
examples of
IOC</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
and FIFA
but I have not
found they
having any
special
criminal</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
immunities. I
may not have
looked up
well, but did
they? Were</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
they not
finally raided
by both Swiss
and US
authorities.
On the</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
other
hand there are
many
international
organisations
with legal</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
immunities
that have been
gooing great
global public
interest</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
work
without
corruption.
Interpol hasnt
started to
take money to</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
make
international
warrants
disappear,
not, more
humbly, the</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
International
Fertilizers
Development
Centre,
immunised
under</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
the
relevant US
Act, and which
enters into
contracts
worth</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
millions
every years
for globally
distributed
projects, has
been</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
known to
do so....</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
(FIFA
and IOC become
corrupt
because of
commercial
thinking</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
completely
overpowering
public service
ethics -- and
if ICANN</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
becomes
so it will
also be ore
likely becuase
of this
reason.</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
But et
us not get
distracted. )</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
And if
indeed we are
so concerned
about ICANN's
abuse of power</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
and
possible
frauds and
corruption, we
should have
let a</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
stronger
and more agile
community
accountability
mechanism get</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
established,
like the
membership
based one, and
with lower</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
thresholds of
triggering
community
action... That
is where the</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
mistake
was made, and
can still be
corrected down
the line. Do</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
not
throw the
world at the
mercy of US
law and
executive
action</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
for this
purpose,
especially
when it
related to to
an</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
infrastructure
which today
underpins
almost every
social system.</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
This is
not just some
sports. (No
hurt intended
to sports
fans,</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
I being
one.)</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
parminder</span><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
On
Saturday 11
February 2017
02:16 PM,
Nigel Roberts
wrote:____</span><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
and
innumerable
others. In the
circumstances,
the real</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
waiver across
all</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
sectors and
laws would be
seek immunity
under the US</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
International</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
Organisations
Immunity Act.
Would you not
prefer this</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
route? If not,
why</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
so? ____</span><br>
<br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
Because I do
not want ICANN
to have
immunity.</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
I
have been
involved in
this community
since before
it was</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
called
'ICANN',
including the
gTLD-MoU and
the IFWP.</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
I
have seen
ICANN behave
as an autocrat
robber baron
and</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
deprive people
of their
property.</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
Fortunately,
we have made
great strides
since then.</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
Accountability
work, between
2003 (in the
case of
ccTLDs) up</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
to
last years'
transition, as
well as the
fact that,
both</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
staff and
Board now have
personal
trust, that
was totally</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
absent 15
years ago.</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
But
both
organisations
and personnnel
can change.</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
Institutional
immunity leads
to corruption.
I do not want</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
ICANN to
become a FIFA,
or IOC.</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
And
the recent
.AFRICA case
shows, the
checks and
balances</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
of
the US
judicial
system appear
to work
reasonably
well (I</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
personally
remain uneasy
about the
covenant of
immunity but</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
I
expect you
have no
problem with
that).</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
I
trust this
explains why
some people -
and I am one -
may</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
have
a
diametrically
opposed view
to yours when
it comes to</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
ICANN
immunity.</span><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
_______________________________________________</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
Ws2-jurisdiction
mailing list</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org"
target="_blank">
Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a> <mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org"
target="_blank">Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a>></span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mm.icann.org_mailman_listinfo_ws2-2Djurisdiction&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=4T8UxvKRRjGx93vZCnzaETM13dJGuhA7-IdjUEJ9e8E&e="
target="_blank">
https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ws2-jurisdiction</a></span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mm.icann.org_mailman_listinfo_ws2-2Djurisdiction&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=4T8UxvKRRjGx93vZCnzaETM13dJGuhA7-IdjUEJ9e8E&e="
target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ws2-jurisdiction</a>>
____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
__ __</span><br>
<br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
_______________________________________________</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
Ws2-jurisdiction
mailing list</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org" target="_blank">
Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a> <mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org"
target="_blank">Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a>></span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mm.icann.org_mailman_listinfo_ws2-2Djurisdiction&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=4T8UxvKRRjGx93vZCnzaETM13dJGuhA7-IdjUEJ9e8E&e="
target="_blank">
https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ws2-jurisdiction</a></span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mm.icann.org_mailman_listinfo_ws2-2Djurisdiction&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=4T8UxvKRRjGx93vZCnzaETM13dJGuhA7-IdjUEJ9e8E&e="
target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ws2-jurisdiction</a>></span><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">_______________________________________________</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">Ws2-jurisdiction
mailing list</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org"
target="_blank">Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a></span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mm.icann.org_mailman_listinfo_ws2-2Djurisdiction&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=4T8UxvKRRjGx93vZCnzaETM13dJGuhA7-IdjUEJ9e8E&e="
target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ws2-jurisdiction</a></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</blockquote>
<p
class="msonormal0"><span
class="gmailmsg"> </span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0in
0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p
class="msonormal0"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span class="gmailmsg"> Your only
problem with
immunity seem
to come up
with regard to</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
criminally
fraudulent
activities.
You give the
examples of
IOC</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
and FIFA
but I have not
found they
having any
special
criminal</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
immunities. I
may not have
looked up
well, but did
they? Were</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
they not
finally raided
by both Swiss
and US
authorities.
On the</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
other
hand there are
many
international
organisations
with legal</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
immunities
that have been
gooing great
global public
interest</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
work
without
corruption.
Interpol hasnt
started to
take money to</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
make
international
warrants
disappear,
not, more
humbly, the</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
International
Fertilizers
Development
Centre,
immunised
under</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
the
relevant US
Act, and which
enters into
contracts
worth</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
millions
every years
for globally
distributed
projects, has
been</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
known to
do so....</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
(FIFA
and IOC become
corrupt
because of
commercial
thinking</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
completely
overpowering
public service
ethics -- and
if ICANN</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
becomes
so it will
also be ore
likely becuase
of this
reason.</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
But et
us not get
distracted. )</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
And if
indeed we are
so concerned
about ICANN's
abuse of power</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
and
possible
frauds and
corruption, we
should have
let a</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
stronger
and more agile
community
accountability
mechanism get</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
established,
like the
membership
based one, and
with lower</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
thresholds of
triggering
community
action... That
is where the</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
mistake
was made, and
can still be
corrected down
the line. Do</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
not
throw the
world at the
mercy of US
law and
executive
action</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
for this
purpose,
especially
when it
related to to
an</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
infrastructure
which today
underpins
almost every
social system.</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
This is
not just some
sports. (No
hurt intended
to sports
fans,</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
I being
one.)</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
parminder</span><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
On
Saturday 11
February 2017
02:16 PM,
Nigel Roberts
wrote:____</span><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
____</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
and
innumerable
others. In the
circumstances,
the real</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
waiver across
all</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
sectors and
laws would be
seek immunity
under the US</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
International</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
Organisations
Immunity Act.
Would you not
prefer this</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
route? If not,
why</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
so? ____</span><br>
<br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
Because I do
not want ICANN
to have
immunity.</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
I
have been
involved in
this community
since before
it was</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
called
'ICANN',
including the
gTLD-MoU and
the IFWP.</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
I
have seen
ICANN behave
as an autocrat
robber baron
and</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
deprive people
of their
property.</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
Fortunately,
we have made
great strides
since then.</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
Accountability
work, between
2003 (in the
case of
ccTLDs) up</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
to
last years'
transition, as
well as the
fact that,
both</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
staff and
Board now have
personal
trust, that
was totally</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
absent 15
years ago.</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
But
both
organisations
and personnnel
can change.</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
Institutional
immunity leads
to corruption.
I do not want</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
ICANN to
become a FIFA,
or IOC.</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
And
the recent
.AFRICA case
shows, the
checks and
balances</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
of
the US
judicial
system appear
to work
reasonably
well (I</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
personally
remain uneasy
about the
covenant of
immunity but</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
I
expect you
have no
problem with
that).</span><br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
I
trust this
explains why
some people -
and I am one -
may</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
have
a
diametrically
opposed view
to yours when
it comes to</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
ICANN
immunity.</span><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
_______________________________________________</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
Ws2-jurisdiction
mailing list</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org"
target="_blank">
Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a> <mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org"
target="_blank">Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a>></span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
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_______________________________________________</span><br>
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class="gmailmsg">
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<span
class="gmailmsg">_______________________________________________</span><br>
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class="gmailmsg">Ws2-jurisdiction
mailing list</span><br>
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class="gmailmsg"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org"
target="_blank">Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a></span><br>
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class="gmailmsg"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mm.icann.org_mailman_listinfo_ws2-2Djurisdiction&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=4T8UxvKRRjGx93vZCnzaETM13dJGuhA7-IdjUEJ9e8E&e="
target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ws2-jurisdiction</a></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</blockquote>
<p
class="msonormal0"><span
class="gmailmsg">_______________________________________________</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">Ws2-jurisdiction
mailing list</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org"
target="_blank">Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a></span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mm.icann.org_mailman_listinfo_ws2-2Djurisdiction&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=4T8UxvKRRjGx93vZCnzaETM13dJGuhA7-IdjUEJ9e8E&e="
target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ws2-jurisdiction</a></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p
class="msonormal0"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">_______________________________________________</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg">Ws2-jurisdiction
mailing list</span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org"
target="_blank">Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a></span><br>
<span
class="gmailmsg"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mm.icann.org_mailman_listinfo_ws2-2Djurisdiction&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=auyHgxBmAM7WyiHL_bP3LUU2HGtmpJs6UDz8t8hgsao&s=4T8UxvKRRjGx93vZCnzaETM13dJGuhA7-IdjUEJ9e8E&e="
target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ws2-jurisdiction</a></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p
class="msonormal0"><span
class="gmailmsg"> </span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"> </span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
class="gmailmsg"> </span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<pre><span class="gmailmsg">_______________________________________________</span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span class="gmailmsg">Ws2-jurisdiction mailing list</span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span class="gmailmsg"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org" target="_blank">Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a></span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span class="gmailmsg"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mm.icann.org_mailman_listinfo_ws2-2Djurisdiction&d=DwMFAg&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=lFzxyNZsqPq3dQCf2tQLLZwXRtWJNr01a16Lb6Zo_d8&s=tc55Ch_YirCnbB-jJFF7yg-QW5vCtxAjnJrB0kpNZp4&e=" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ws2-jurisdiction</a></span><span lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"> </span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
<span class="gmailmsg">_______________________________________________</span><br>
<span class="gmailmsg">Ws2-jurisdiction
mailing list</span><br>
<span class="gmailmsg"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org"
target="_blank">Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a></span><br>
<span class="gmailmsg"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mm.icann.org_mailman_listinfo_ws2-2Djurisdiction&d=DwMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=BDl9R7sJbdeSjifdzPQw6zLp1q3vtgMWmW-wXQ0hrV4&s=1f6YFREa-qF1g6KUMiKsAK989VC121BpFuiZt4VwS-o&e="
target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ws2-jurisdiction</a></span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
class="gmailmsg"> </span><span
lang="DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
Ws2-jurisdiction mailing list<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org"
target="_blank">Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mm.icann.org_mailman_listinfo_ws2-2Djurisdiction&d=DwMD-g&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=lS2-Q6qe5eurLgdspy7xa8Ttc9yDW34YHH_rzlVGV6Q&s=u2yi6j4492EwIGrbh-rOV9pW39jn177fYjGCIxw2khY&e="
target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ws2-jurisdiction</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- <o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#002E62">Greg
Shatan<br>
</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">C:
917-816-6428<br>
S: gsshatan<br>
Phone-to-Skype: 646-845-9428<br>
</span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com"
target="_blank"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1155CC">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Ws2-jurisdiction mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org">Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mm.icann.org_mailman_listinfo_ws2-2Djurisdiction&d=DwMD-g&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=lS2-Q6qe5eurLgdspy7xa8Ttc9yDW34YHH_rzlVGV6Q&s=u2yi6j4492EwIGrbh-rOV9pW39jn177fYjGCIxw2khY&e=">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ws2-jurisdiction</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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