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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Wednesday 05 April 2017 10:19 PM,
Paul Rosenzweig wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:011001d2ae2c$a3793770$ea6ba650$@redbranchconsulting.com"
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">And
as we have said before, ICANN cannot escape US jurisdiction
by moving its headquarters. US law will assert jurisdiction
so long as ICANN has “substantial contacts” with the US.
The same is true of UK, Germany, Canada, Australia and I
believe India … </span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
We have been over this many times, but I simply cannot let pass
this absurd proposition that India, for instance, has a comparable
jurisdictional leverage over ICANN to US. I do not know why, even as
a lawyer, you keep on making it.<br>
<br>
And if indeed it was so, why not then lets have ICANN be moved to
India or Switzerland.. US can still keep exercising its jurisdiction
over ICANN, as you argue it will be able to, and all others can be
happy too! <br>
<br>
Meanwhile, it is not just the matter of a court exercising
jurisdiction, but even more importantly of having leverage to
enforce its writ.... <br>
<br>
As to the "substantial contacts" argument, if you go through the
various court cases involving ICANN, you will see that wherever
possible ICANN has denied "substantial contacts" is all places other
than California, US, arguing that its role in the DNS stops with
making a contract with a registry, which contract is deemed to have
been made in California and is subject to its laws. Rest, downstream
in the DNS, is none of ICANN's business...<br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:011001d2ae2c$a3793770$ea6ba650$@redbranchconsulting.com"
type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">Once
again, this is wrong.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">Paul<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">Paul
Rosenzweig<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com"><span
style="color:#0563C1">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">O:
+1 (202) 547-0660<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">M:
+1 (202) 329-9650<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">VOIP:
+1 (202) 738-1739<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.redbranchconsulting.com/"><span
style="color:#0563C1">www.redbranchconsulting.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">My
PGP Key: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://keys.mailvelope.com/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9A830097CA066684"><span
style="color:#0563C1">https://keys.mailvelope.com/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9A830097CA066684</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org">ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org">mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a>] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>parminder<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 5, 2017 5:58 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org">ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] Pool.com case
summary<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Although
I do see that in some other cases ICANN did contest the
jurisdiction over certain of its acts of different states in
the US, claiming that California jurisdiction should apply.
But the main point of discussion here is about larger
application of US jurisdiction over ICANN vis a vis that of
other countries. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">parminder
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Wednesday 05 April 2017 12:56 PM,
parminder wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Tuesday 04 April 2017 08:32 PM, Paul
Rosenzweig wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">Statement
#2 below is incorrect. I haven’t reviewed them all but
at a minimum ICANN contested jurisdiction in Arizona v.
ICANN, the law suit filed by the states to attempt to
stop the transition.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
For my statement # 2 to be incorrect, ICANN should have
challenged application of US court jurisdiction in the
Arizona case -- In fact there is no Arizona v. ICANN case
that I can find. I can only find an Arizona v. NTIA
case..... I cant see ICANN to be a party to it, neither has
it filed a response. Will you please show me where ICANN
challenges US court jurisdiction in this case? Thanks. <br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">Paul</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">Paul
Rosenzweig</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com"><span
style="color:#0563C1">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">O:
+1 (202) 547-0660</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">M:
+1 (202) 329-9650</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">VOIP:
+1 (202) 738-1739</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.redbranchconsulting.com/"><span
style="color:#0563C1">www.redbranchconsulting.com</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">My
PGP Key: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://keys.mailvelope.com/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9A830097CA066684"><span
style="color:#0563C1">https://keys.mailvelope.com/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9A830097CA066684</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org">ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org">mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>parminder<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 4, 2017 6:14 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org">ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] Pool.com case
summary</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Monday 03 April 2017 07:57 PM,
Paul Rosenzweig wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Why
would you say that Seun – it is what the lawyers for
ICANN argued, but there is no evidence that the
Canadian court agree to that submission. I would
expect ICANN’s lawyers to make that argument and I
would also expect based on what little I know of
Canadian law that in the end the court would have
rejected the argument. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
It is absolutely significant that<br>
<br>
(1) In the only documented case which went before a non US
court, ICANN promptly contested the court's jurisdiction.
This is fact was its primary argument as far as I can see
from the case details.<br>
<br>
(2) In none of more than 20 other documents cases, all in
US courts, ICANN ever contested -- in the slightest --
the court's jurisdiction over ICANN or the matter under
consideration. <br>
<br>
It clearly shows that everyone -- ICANN, US courts, in
fact even all of us -- know what is what vis a vis the
absolute jurisdictional powers of US over ICANN, and thus
over its policies and their implementation, and very
feeble jurisdictional leeway (and even lesser enforcement
capacity) that non US courts and other state agencies have
over ICANN. <br>
<br>
We are simply wasting out time trying to minutely examine
facts that are fairly well established and normally not
contested. <br>
<br>
As you agreed with me in a way, lets come to the crux of
the matter, and see what is this group really trying to
do, what progress we are making or not making, what is the
prognosis of possible outcomes, and so on....<br>
<br>
IMHO we are just making ourselves believe that we are
doing something in this group, when in fact we are not
doing anything at all. <br>
<br>
<b><i>Sub-group chairs,</i></b><br>
<br>
Kavouss had put the matter to the CCWG chairs of the email
I wrote about the non progress of this groups work. CCWG
chair seem to have ordered the matter to be addressed by
the sub group. Are you going to take up that matter?<br>
<br>
Also note that Paul too agreed with me that we seem not to
be going anywhere (or some such, I do not want to put
words in his mouth, his email of a few days back may be
read)<br>
<br>
Thanks, parminder <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Paul</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Paul
Rosenzweig</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com"><span
style="color:#0563C1">paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">O:
+1 (202) 547-0660</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">M:
+1 (202) 329-9650</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">VOIP:
+1 (202) 738-1739</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.redbranchconsulting.com/"><span
style="color:#0563C1">www.redbranchconsulting.com</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">My
PGP Key: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://keys.mailvelope.com/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9A830097CA066684"><span
style="color:#0563C1">https://keys.mailvelope.com/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9A830097CA066684</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org">ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org">mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Seun Ojedeji<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 3, 2017 9:41 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mathieu Weill <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mathieu.weill@afnic.fr"><mathieu.weill@afnic.fr></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> ws2-jurisdiction <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org"><ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] Pool.com case
summary</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Thanks
a lot for sharing this Mathieu, I guess this removes
any claims that the experience would be the same if
ICANN were sued outside of her jurisdiction of
incorporation. The following text makes that quite
clear:<br>
<br>
"Defendant ICANN asserted that the Court lacked
jurisdiction because (quoting the argument):<br>
ICANN is not resident in Ontario<br>
The Action has no real or substantial connection to
Ontario<br>
Virtually all the evidence and witnesses are in
California"<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">I am
not a lawyer but perhaps it may be good to know how
flexible it is for non-US customer of ICANN to
legally engage/challenge ICANN in her place of
incorporation. The impact of this on US-banned
countries may also be a good to know.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Regards<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 2:29 PM,
Mathieu Weill <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mathieu.weill@afnic.fr"
target="_blank">mathieu.weill@afnic.fr</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
lang="FR">Dear Colleagues, </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
lang="FR"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Here
is another summary form for the Pool.com vs
ICANN case. It’s an interesting case because
it was the only one documented as submitted in
front of a non-US court. However it was
settled before it reached the decision stage.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Best,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#888888"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="color:#888888" lang="FR">-- <br>
***************************** <br>
Mathieu WEILL <br>
AFNIC - directeur général <br>
Tél: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:+33%201%2039%2030%2083%2006"
target="_blank">+33 1 39 30 83 06</a> <br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mathieu.weill@afnic.fr"
target="_blank">mathieu.weill@afnic.fr</a>
<br>
Twitter : @mathieuweill <br>
*****************************</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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_______________________________________________<br>
Ws2-jurisdiction mailing list<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org">Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ws2-jurisdiction"
target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ws2-jurisdiction</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><i><span
style="font-family:"Garamond",serif;color:#006600">Seun
Ojedeji,<br>
Federal University Oye-Ekiti<br>
web: </span></i><i><span
style="font-family:"Garamond",serif;color:#888888"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.fuoye.edu.ng"
target="_blank">http://www.fuoye.edu.ng</a><br>
</span></i><i><span
style="font-family:"Garamond",serif;color:#006600">Mobile:
+2348035233535</span></i><i><span
style="font-family:"Garamond",serif;color:#888888"><br>
</span></i><i><span
style="font-family:"Garamond",serif;color:#006600">alt
email:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://goog_1872880453"
target="_blank"> </a><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@fuoye.edu.ng"
target="_blank">seun.ojedeji@fuoye.edu.ng</a></span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Garamond",serif;color:#888888">Bringing
another down does not take you up -
think about your action!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Ws2-jurisdiction mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org">Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ws2-jurisdiction">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ws2-jurisdiction</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Ws2-jurisdiction mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org">Ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ws2-jurisdiction">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ws2-jurisdiction</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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