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<div style="font-size: 13.3333px;">Dear Greg,</div>
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<div style="font-size: 13.3333px;">The contentious issue I was referring to was the impact of ICANN's place of incorporation on its ability to perform its functions, and I'm glad you allow me to make that clearer, even though I would suppose you'd have understood
it from my other interventions.</div>
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<div style="font-size: 13.3333px;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">As for my views on what that issue is, a look at the e-mail I sent on 30 May would give you a sense of it: </span><a href="http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/ws2-jurisdiction/2017-May/001003.html" target="_blank" style="font-size: 10pt;">http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/ws2-jurisdiction/2017-May/001003.html</a></div>
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</span></div>
<div style="font-size: 13.3333px;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">I have no preconceived views, and was hoping to engage more in that very discussion to fully appreciate the problems, until I guess someone saw the need to ensure the group would not recommend
certain solutions before we knew what the problems were.</span></div>
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<div style="font-size: 13.3333px;">Best,</div>
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<div style="font-size: 13.3333px;">Thiago</div>
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<div id="divRpF687004" style="direction: ltr;"><font face="Tahoma" size="2" color="#000000"><b>De:</b> Greg Shatan [gregshatanipc@gmail.com]<br>
<b>Enviado:</b> quinta-feira, 15 de junho de 2017 20:53<br>
<b>Para:</b> Thiago Braz Jardim Oliveira<br>
<b>Cc:</b> ws2-jurisdiction<br>
<b>Assunto:</b> Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] Fwd: [CCWG-ACCT] Caption Notes-Recordings-Transcript links for Jurisdiction Meeting #35 - 14 June 2017<br>
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<div class="gmail_default">Thiago,</div>
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<div class="gmail_default">You completely misunderstand my position. As rapporteur, I am expressing no opinion or position either way. Nor am I objecting to your position. My questions were intended to help others in the group understand more about your position.
You stated that what you "would propose, if I may, would be to focus on these contentious issues, on the contentious issue, which is the place of incorporation." Since your position is not in fact procedural, but rather grounded in advancing the view that
ICANN's place of incorporation is a "contentious issue," it seemed fair to help others to understand the root of your concerns.</div>
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<div class="gmail_default">With regard to where we stand procedurally, please see my response to Seun.</div>
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<div class="gmail_default">Best regards,</div>
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<div class="gmail_default">Greg</div>
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<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 7:22 PM, Thiago Braz Jardim Oliveira
<span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:thiago.jardim@itamaraty.gov.br" target="_blank">thiago.jardim@itamaraty.gov.br</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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<div style="font-size:13.3333px">Dear Greg,</div>
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<div style="font-size:13.3333px"><span style="font-size:10pt">Perhaps you should turn the question around and ask it yourself. Why do you think it's important to NOT have the option for this Subgroup to recommend that ICANN be either relocated or granted immunity?
I'm genuinely interested in knowing your answer.</span></div>
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<div style="font-size:13.3333px">You <span style="font-size:10pt">also asked "What issue within our remit can only be solved by such drastic actions". Well, have we finished identifying the issues? I don't think so. That's what others and I have been saying
we should be doing. F</span><span style="font-size:10pt">oreclosing solutions before we can answer this question does not make sense to me, for some such issue can appear as the Subgroup does the work it should be doing</span><span style="font-size:10pt">.
You even had to admit this, as your objection to my stance led you to ask "what issue requires which solution"...</span></div>
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<div style="font-size:13.3333px"><span style="font-size:10pt">The distraction from the work we all would like to get done</span><span style="font-size:13.3333px"> has come precisely from this insistence on ruling out (or ruling in) remedies, for God knows what
reason, and this - nothing else - has prevented us from </span><span style="font-size:10pt">answering your own question </span><span style="font-size:13.3333px">"What issue within our remit can only be solved by such drastic actions". Really, what was preventing
us from doing this?</span></div>
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<div style="font-size:13.3333px">But let's not lose sight of where we are now, and perhaps how we got there, to make sure one's views are not portrayed as the group's. To illustrate this, <span style="font-size:13.3333px">people in the Subgroup from different
constituencies are now concerned about this attempted decision to rule out, for example, immunities, which the subgroup has never really examined nor qualified as a "drastic action".</span></div>
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<div style="font-size:13.3333px"><span style="font-size:10pt">Best,</span></div>
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<div style="font-size:13.3333px"><span style="font-size:10pt">Thiago</span></div>
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<div id="m_1574797377954406357divRpF214737" style="direction:ltr"><font face="Tahoma" size="2" color="#000000"><b>De:</b> Greg Shatan [<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>]<br>
<b>Enviado:</b> quinta-feira, 15 de junho de 2017 19:40<br>
<b>Para:</b> Thiago Braz Jardim Oliveira<br>
<b>Cc:</b> ws2-jurisdiction<br>
<b>Assunto:</b> Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] Fwd: [CCWG-ACCT] Caption Notes-Recordings-Transcript links for Jurisdiction Meeting #35 - 14 June 2017<br>
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Thiago,</div>
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">I would take issue with your retelling of recent history.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">But let's switch from procedure to substance for a change. Why do you think it is important to have the option for this Subgroup to recommend that ICANN be re-created in a different jurisdiction,
or moved outside the United States, or be granted immunity from legal challenges by third parties? How would you want to use that power? What issue within our remit can only be solved by such drastic actions?</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Absent a compelling substantive reason to do so, and something beyond "we should keep our options open," dragging out this process further has no particular value, would just seem to distract
from the work we would all like to get back to.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">I was once told that the worst epitaph a man could have is "He kept his options open." I think the same can be said for working groups. </div>
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Greg</div>
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<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 6:17 PM, Thiago Braz Jardim Oliveira
<span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:thiago.jardim@itamaraty.gov.br" target="_blank">thiago.jardim@itamaraty.gov.<wbr>br</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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<div style="font-size:13.3333px">Dear Greg,</div>
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<div style="font-size:13.3333px">I'm afraid I'll have to challenge your suggestion that two full meetings were devoted to considering the terms of the decision supposedly arrived at in the very last minutes of yesterday's call. We moved from debating a proposal
of yours to have a question you drafted submitted to the plenary, then past that question to a table where different approaches were gathered, and then to another table. <span style="font-size:10pt">At no point did we really consider the different approaches
nor their substance, nor did you as rapporteur ensure that objections or support for the different approaches were tested and noted. Then, it was only in the very last minutes of yesterday's call that the formulation suggested by Thomas first appeared, who
seemed to argue it was in line with Avri's suggestion in the previous meeting, and, because of that, that it would have garnered some support. Now, we all saw that the formulation does not reflect what Avri really said, so not even with a </span>stretch<span style="font-size:10pt"> of
imagination it is ac</span>curate<span style="font-size:10pt"> to affirm that the decision was arrived at after discussion. The expedite (not to say expedient) manner in which that proposal was presented and assumed to reflect consensus is quite worrying.</span></div>
<div style="font-size:13.3333px"><br>
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<div style="font-size:13.3333px"><span style="font-size:10pt">In the interest of not having a "minority" statement that would later reveal to be a "majority" statement, I assume the best course of action would be to subject </span><span style="font-size:13.3333px">to
the scrutiny of the Subgroup </span><span style="font-size:10pt">what was raised and supposedly decided during the last minutes of yesterday's call, in a transparent way, with clear deadlines for reactions, and only then validate any decision.</span></div>
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<div style="font-size:13.3333px"><span style="font-size:10pt">Best,</span></div>
<div style="font-size:13.3333px"><span style="font-size:10pt"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="font-size:13.3333px"><span style="font-size:10pt">Thiago</span></div>
<div style="font-size:13.3333px"><span style="font-size:10pt"><br>
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<font face="Tahoma" size="2" color="#000000"><b>De:</b> <a href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">
ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann<wbr>.org</a> [<a href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@ican<wbr>n.org</a>] em nome de Greg Shatan [<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</a>]<br>
<b>Enviado:</b> quinta-feira, 15 de junho de 2017 18:27<br>
<b>Para:</b> ws2-jurisdiction<br>
<b>Assunto:</b> [Ws2-jurisdiction] Fwd: [CCWG-ACCT] Caption Notes-Recordings-Transcript links for Jurisdiction Meeting #35 - 14 June 2017<br>
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Jurisdiction Subgroup Members,</div>
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">As noted below, after two full meetings devoted to the topic, the Subgroup arrived at a decision (excerpted verbatim from the transcript in the email below). For convenience, here it is again:</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:14.6667px">We have concluded that the Jurisdiction sub-group will take California jurisdiction as a base line for all its recommendations,
and that the sub-team not pursue recommendations to change ICANN's jurisdiction of incorporation, location of headquarters or seek immunity for ICANN. With this decision we are recognizing that there is no possibility that there would be consensus for an
immunity based concept or a change of place of incorporation. As such I would establish in the minutes of this call that we focus on the solution that gets most traction. Recognizing that this does not eliminate, as I think Avri said during last week's call,
that we can discuss all issues that might arise during the deliberations. But that we actually focus on the status quo being California law and place of incorporation. and work on solutions that are founded on this.</span></div>
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Opposition was noted from four participants on the call (including one who left before the end, but had made his position clear.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">This decision will now be referred to the Plenary, consistent with CCWG procedures. <br>
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">With this, I believe that it is imperative that we return to and focus on identifying potential issues, deciding whether these are in fact issues within our remit, discussing those issues and
making recommendations for resolving those issues.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Greg</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"> </div>
<div class="gmail_quote">---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
From: <b class="gmail_sendername">MSSI Secretariat</b> <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:mssi-secretariat@icann.org" target="_blank">mssi-secretariat@icann.org</a>></span><br>
Date: Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 1:46 PM<br>
Subject: [CCWG-ACCT] Caption Notes-Recordings-Transcript links for Jurisdiction Meeting #35 - 14 June 2017<br>
To: CCWG Accountability <<a href="mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org" target="_blank">accountability-cross-communit<wbr>y@icann.org</a>><br>
Cc: "<a href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org" target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org" target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a>><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Hello all,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">The caption notes, recordings and transcripts for CCWG Accountability WS2 Jurisdiction Subgroup Meeting #35– 14 June 2017 will be available here: <a href="https://community.icann.org/x/GSDwAw" target="_blank">https://community.ican<wbr>n.org/x/GSDwAw</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">A copy of the action items and raw caption notes may be found below. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">With kind regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-size:11pt">Brenda Brewer,</span></i></b><i><span style="font-size:11pt"> Projects & Operations Assistant </span></i><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Multistakeholder Strategy & Strategic Initiatives (MSSI)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><img id="m_1574797377954406357m_-3540807754203367268gmail-m_-7229365834984630828m_822270039893161403m_-2178573265838811715Picture_x0020_2" src="cid:image001.png@01D2E5D5.73E41D50" height="61" width="61" border="0"></span><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Skype: brenda.brewer.icann<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div style="border-top:none; border-right:none; border-left:none; border-bottom:1.5pt solid windowtext; padding:0in 0in 1pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="border:none; padding:0in"><span style="font-size:11pt">Phone:
<a href="tel:(310)%20745-1107" value="+13107451107" target="_blank">1-310-745-1107</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt">Raw Captioning Notes<u></u><u></u></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11pt">Please note that these are the unofficial transcript. Official transcript will be posted 2-3 days after the call</span></i><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<ul type="disc" style="margin-top:0in">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0in"><span style="font-size:11pt"><a href="https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/66068505/Jurisdicton_0614ICANN1300UTC.RTF?version=1&modificationDate=1497462625000&api=v2" target="_blank">Word Doc</a><u></u><u></u></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0in"><span style="font-size:11pt"><a href="https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/66068505/Jurisdiction_0614ICANN1300UTC.pdf?version=1&modificationDate=1497462637000&api=v2" target="_blank">PDF</a><u></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt">Decisions:<u></u><u></u></span></b></p>
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<li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0in"><span style="font-size:11pt">Thomas Rickert for the CCWG-Accountability Co-Chairs, We have concluded that the Jurisdiction sub-group will take Californian jurisdiction as a base line for all its recommendations,
and that the sub-team not pursue recommendations to change ICANN's jurisdiction of incorporation, location of headquarters or seek immunity for ICANN. With this decision we are recognizing that there is no possibility that there would be consensus for an
immunity based concept or a change of place of incorporation. As such I would establish in the minutes of this call that we focus on the solution that gets most traction. Recognizing that this does not eliminate, as I think Avri said during last week's call,
that we can discuss all issues that might arise during the deliberations. But that we actually focus on the status quo being Californian law and place of incorporation. and work on solutions that are founded on this.<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt">Action Items:<u></u><u></u></span></b></p>
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<li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0in"><span style="font-size:11pt">(none)<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt">Requests:<u></u><u></u></span></b></p>
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<li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0in"><span style="font-size:11pt">(none)<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
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