<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Milton,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Once again I more-or-less agree with you in the initial part of the email, but with exceptions. At some point, the discussion turned away from a "scope" framing, but not really until the second call. So the emails prior to the second call were largely hung up on scope, and those afterwards were hung up on procedure. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">I also agree we have done a lot of good work, but much of it is still in midstream. We will need to review the prior draft documents and see what we can bring into a deliverable. I think the OFAC discussion is also still mid-stream and needs some focus and rigor to bring it forward, and see if we get agreement that it is not merely a "proposed issue" but an "issue." (Not something to pick up in this email thread, but definitely to be picked up.)</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">On the other points, as rapporteur I express no personal opinion, but I do believe that the bulk of the group would be in agreement with your assessment, at least within the remit of this CCWG-Accountability.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Greg</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 3:16 PM, Mueller, Milton L <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:milton@gatech.edu" target="_blank">milton@gatech.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div class="m_-2198673479551807601WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Sorry if I missed the boat, Greg, but I did review the emails on the list fairly extensively before commenting, and it sure looked like we were having a scope
debate rather than a substantive debate. It is possible that the initial framing as a scope debate triggered a lot of responses and emotions that the overall dialogue never got beyond.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">One of the problems with framing it as scope is that it lets those who want to argue for a change in the jurisdiction/place of incorporation off the hook. They
can make perfectly reasonable and convincing arguments that it is not out of scope, even if they are unable to demonstrate a clearly superior alternative to California law that is compatible with the WS1 accountability mechanisms.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Let’s get out of that rut.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I think the subgroup has done more extensive quality work than people who are watching it day to day realize.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="m_-2198673479551807601MsoListParagraph"><u></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1f497d"><span>·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><u></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">We have clarified the set of problems we face with the layer model;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="m_-2198673479551807601MsoListParagraph"><u></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1f497d"><span>·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><u></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">We have reviewed most of the relevant court cases (still ongoing);<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="m_-2198673479551807601MsoListParagraph"><u></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1f497d"><span>·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><u></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">We have identified specific problems with U.S. jurisdiction (OFAC and similar US-imposed sanctions);<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="m_-2198673479551807601MsoListParagraph"><u></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1f497d"><span>·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><u></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">We have discussed the US Immunities Act, and with one or two exceptions agreed that it would not be a good path to take<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="m_-2198673479551807601MsoListParagraph"><u></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#1f497d"><span>·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><u></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">We have discovered that those who most want to move it out of California cannot name or identify a specific, superior location/jurisdiction, but must
instead appeal to “international jurisdiction,” which means a new international treaty and new organizational arrangement that would require re-doing the entire transition process.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Let’s reach consensus on two simple points:
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="m_-2198673479551807601MsoListParagraph"><u></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><span>1.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><u></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">There ARE problems of accountability caused by U.S. jurisdiction, notably around OFAC sanctions<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="m_-2198673479551807601MsoListParagraph"><u></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><span>2.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><u></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">There is no reasonable prospect of improvement to come from uprooting ICANN, completely changing its legal status and moving to an unknown and as yet
undeveloped alternative<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Greg Shatan [mailto:<a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank">gregshatanipc@gmail.<wbr>com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 19, 2017 12:44 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> John Laprise <<a href="mailto:jlaprise@gmail.com" target="_blank">jlaprise@gmail.com</a>>; Mueller, Milton L <<a href="mailto:milton@gatech.edu" target="_blank">milton@gatech.edu</a>>; ws2-jurisdiction <<a href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org" target="_blank">ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</a>></span></p><div><div class="h5"><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:acct-staff@icann.org" target="_blank">acct-staff@icann.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] Question Presented<u></u><u></u></div></div><p></p>
</div>
</div><div><div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Milton,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I actually agree with you, up to a point. The slide you refer to was a strawman and a jumping-off point for discussion. By the second call, last week, we had moved away from that slide and from discussing the issue in terms of scope.
The CCWG Co-Chairs instead framed the issue around the question "what will get sufficient traction in the group" vs. subjects that will not get sufficient traction, and thus would not lead to a consensus recommendation. <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">However, I don't think this was an instance of anyone preempting a discussion, much less dishonestly. As noted, no issues have been foreclosed by the Co-Chair's decision, which is aligned with your point #2 -- the "lack of traction" for
recommending changes to ICANN's corporate status. I hope that everyone is interested in substantive debate, and I hope to see plenty of it in this group in the coming weeks.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Best regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Greg<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 10:41 AM John Laprise <<a href="mailto:jlaprise@gmail.com" target="_blank">jlaprise@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="m_-2198673479551807601_m_-3431946777163345412_m_838243520182108"><span style="font-family:"Garamond",serif;color:#993366">+1</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Garamond",serif;color:#993366"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Garamond",serif;color:#993366">Best regards,
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Garamond",serif;color:#993366"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Garamond",serif;color:#993366">John Laprise, Ph.D.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Garamond",serif;color:#993366">Principal Consultant</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Garamond",serif;color:#993366"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/jplaprise/" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:"Garamond",serif;color:#0563c1">http://www.linkedin.com/in/<wbr>jplaprise/</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Garamond",serif;color:#993366"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Garamond",serif;color:#993366"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Garamond",serif;color:#993366"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
</span><a href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@<wbr>icann.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> [mailto:</span><a href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">ws2-jurisdiction-<wbr>bounces@icann.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mueller, Milton L<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 19, 2017 9:40 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Greg Shatan <</span><a href="mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">gregshatanipc@gmail.com</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">>; ws2-jurisdiction
<</span><a href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">><br>
<b>Cc:</b> </span><a href="mailto:acct-staff@icann.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">acct-staff@icann.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ws2-jurisdiction] Question Presented</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Please pardon my late intervention. We were presented with this question:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="m_-2198673479551807601m-3431946777163345412m8382435201821088497default"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:#1f487c">Question: Is considering or recommending changes to ICANN's status as a not-for-profit California corporation within the scope of the Subgroup?</span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Two things seem obvious to me:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<ol start="1" type="1">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#1f497d">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">The issue IS within the intended scope of the subgroup, and
</span><u></u><u></u></li></ol>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<ol start="1" type="1">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#1f497d">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">There is overwhelming consensus AGAINST recommending changes to ICANN’s status as a nonprofit California public benefit corporation.
</span><u></u><u></u></li></ol>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">It seems to me that most of the debate is confusing issue #1 with issue #2. The entire discussion has
not developed any real alternative, much less a clearly superior one, to California jurisdiction. The identified problems with US jurisdiction (mainly OFAC) can be addressed without moving ICANN’s place of incorporation. So let’s stop trying to dishonestly
pre-empt resolution of the jurisdiction issue by ruling certain discussions “out of scope.” Let’s resolve it honestly by developing and acknowledging consensus around the fact that other than the meaningless mirage of “international jurisdiction” there is
no better framework within which to work than California law. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">The debate about scope, in other words, is a diversion from the substantive issue, and I wish the chairs
and the Americans in the subgroup would stop trying to pre-empt substantive debate with scope debate.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I will not be in Johannesburg so I hope people who agree with me can take this perspective into the
f2f meeting.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Dr. Milton L. Mueller</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Professor, School of Public Policy</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Georgia Institute of Technology</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
</span><a href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@<wbr>icann.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> [</span><a href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">mailto:ws2-jurisdiction-<wbr>bounces@icann.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Shatan<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, June 8, 2017 9:29 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> ws2-jurisdiction <</span><a href="mailto:ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">ws2-jurisdiction@icann.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">><br>
<b>Cc:</b> </span><a href="mailto:acct-staff@icann.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">acct-staff@icann.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Ws2-jurisdiction] Question Presented</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Please see attached.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>