[CCWG-ACCT] [Acct-Legal] community powers comparison: designator & membership model - what powers can we create and how to enforce them?

[Jordan Carter]

OK thanks Greg. The joys (not) of multi-time-zone work.

No counsel on our WP1 call Thursday, to confirm, from my point of view.

cheers
Jordan

On 16 April 2015 at 16:45, Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc at gmail.com> wrote:

> 4 hours before the call is 8 am on the West Coast (where it is now 9:45
> PM) and 11 am on the East Coast (where it is now 12:45 AM). I tend to doubt
> that 4 hours prior to the call is likely to happen, since most of the
> difference between 12 hours and 4 hours is overnight for us.
>
> I also realized as I looked at this that we had a day-conversion
> misunderstanding as well, since we were responding to your email "I know
> this is bold, but is there any chance a reviewed copy might be available
> for discussion in WP1 on Friday?" Unfortunately, you were referring to
> your Friday, but our Thursday.   Not realizing that on the legal sub team
> call, we discussed having the lawyers ready the document in anticipation of
> a Friday call (our Friday). Even that would be a short turn-around, but not
> short enough for a call that's really happening on Thursday.
>
> In any event, I am going to circulate to the main list a copy of the
> second draft that counsel is reviewing, so people know what is happening,
> and know not to refer to the first draft.
>
> Greg
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 12:31 AM, Jordan Carter <jordan at internetnz.net.nz>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi there - if it's four or so hours that is still OK. But aside from
>> that, too late, and we won't ask people to read it as a late paper.
>>
>> I'd like to emphasise that that's OK - the input is primarily for a
>> debate that the CCWG as a whole is having, and so this work will be a very
>> useful tool for that.
>>
>> thanks,
>> Jordan
>>
>>
>> On 16 April 2015 at 16:27, León Felipe Sánchez Ambía <
>> leonfelipe at sanchez.mx> wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you Rosemary,
>>>
>>> Here's a link to a tool that might prove to be useful while converting
>>> into UTC
>>> http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/converted.html?iso=20150416T07&p1=0&p2=155
>>>
>>> And yes, that is in less than three hours.
>>>
>>> Jordan, can you confirme Counsel won't be required in the call?
>>>
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>>
>>> León
>>>
>>> El 15/04/2015, a las 23:20, List for the work of CCWG-Accountability
>>> Legal SubTeam <ccwg-accountability5 at icann.org> escribió:
>>>
>>> León and Jordan:
>>>
>>> I'm new to converting from UTC, but I believe the deadline (0700 UTC) is
>>> in less than three hours.  If that's correct, then no, legal counsel cannot
>>> have our comments to Robin's chart ready by then.
>>>
>>> Rosemary
>>>
>>> *From:* ccwg-accountability5-bounces at icann.org [
>>> mailto:ccwg-accountability5-bounces at icann.org
>>> <ccwg-accountability5-bounces at icann.org>] *On Behalf Of *List for the
>>> work of CCWG-Accountability Legal SubTeam
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 15, 2015 9:04 PM
>>> *To:* Jordan Carter
>>> *Cc:* ACCT-Staff; ccwg-accountability5 at icann.org; Accountability Cross
>>> Community
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Acct-Legal] [CCWG-ACCT] community powers comparison:
>>> designator & membership model - what powers can we create and how to
>>> enforce them?
>>>
>>> Thanks for the quick return Jordan.
>>>
>>> Counsel, is Jordan's message clear?
>>>
>>> Your attendance would be needed on WP1 call *only* if the document is
>>> ready under the stated times.
>>>
>>> Would this timeline be able to be met?
>>>
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>>
>>> León
>>>
>>>
>>> El 15/04/2015, a las 22:10, Jordan Carter <jordan at internetnz.net.nz>
>>> escribió:
>>>
>>> Hi folks
>>>
>>> If the lawyers are on track to finish adding their material / views to
>>> the table that Robin proposed and are ready to circulate that to me and
>>> everyone else by 0700 UTC on Thursday, then *yes*, I would like to
>>> invite them to be the first item on the call, from 1900 to 1920 on the call
>>> on Thursday (UTC).
>>>
>>> Otherwise, no counsel are required.
>>>
>>> We won't deal with any material that can't reach the 12h deadline,
>>> unless it's like 11h or 10h.
>>>
>>> So - please advise ASAP the timeline.
>>>
>>> IN terms of what we have to do on that call, introducing this material
>>> will be helpful, but we don't need to make decisions on it. That's why it
>>> is a 20 mins slot at the start of the call - we do have to finish the rest.
>>>
>>>
>>> thanks,
>>> Jordan
>>>
>>>
>>> On 16 April 2015 at 13:08, León Felipe Sánchez Ambía <
>>> leonfelipe at sanchez.mx> wrote:
>>> Dear Jordan,
>>>
>>> Could you please confirm whether you will be needing the lawyers to
>>> attend your call on Friday?
>>>
>>> Staff, if Jordan does confirm the need to invite the lawyers, could you
>>> please make sure they get the invitations with the call details?
>>>
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>>
>>> León
>>>
>>>
>>> El 15/04/2015, a las 19:56, List for the work of CCWG-Accountability
>>> Legal SubTeam <ccwg-accountability5 at icann.org> escribió:
>>>
>>> Dear Leon and Jordan,
>>>
>>> Could you please let us know if outside counsel is being asked to join
>>> the WP1 call on Friday referenced below, and if so, could you let us know
>>> the time of the call and arrange for an invitation to be sent to us?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> *TYLER* *HILTON*
>>> Associate
>>>
>>> *Sidley Austin LLP*
>>> +1.213.896.6130
>>>
>>> thilton at sidley.com
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* ccwg-accountability5-bounces at icann.org [
>>> mailto:ccwg-accountability5-bounces at icann.org
>>> <ccwg-accountability5-bounces at icann.org>] *On Behalf Of *List for the
>>> work of CCWG-Accountability Legal SubTeam
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 15, 2015 4:01 AM
>>> *To:* ccwg-accountability5 at icann.org; Jordan Carter
>>> *Cc:* ccwg-accountability5 at icann.org; Accountability Cross Community
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Acct-Legal] [CCWG-ACCT] community powers comparison:
>>> designator & membership model - what powers can we create and how to
>>> enforce them?
>>>
>>> Dear Leon and Jordan,  We should be able to have this ready within the
>>> next day or so and definitely prior to Friday's call.  Kind regards, Holly.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent with Good (www.good.com)
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> *From:* ccwg-accountability5-bounces at icann.org on behalf of List for
>>> the work of CCWG-Accountability Legal SubTeam
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 15, 2015 12:32:18 AM
>>> *To:* Jordan Carter
>>> *Cc:* ccwg-accountability5 at icann.org; Accountability Cross Community
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Acct-Legal] [CCWG-ACCT] community powers comparison:
>>> designator & membership model - what powers can we create and how to
>>> enforce them?
>>> Dear Holly and Rosemary,
>>>
>>> Would Jordan's request be possible?
>>>
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>>
>>> León
>>>
>>>
>>> El 15/04/2015, a las 0:26, Jordan Carter <jordan at internetnz.net.nz>
>>> escribió:
>>>
>>>
>>> I know this is bold, but is there any chance a reviewed copy might be
>>> available for discussion in WP1 on Friday?
>>> Many thanks
>>> Jordan
>>>
>>> On 15 April 2015 at 17:00, List for the work of CCWG-Accountability
>>> Legal SubTeam <ccwg-accountability5 at icann.org> wrote:
>>> Dear Holly and Rosemary,
>>>
>>>
>>> Please do review Robin's table. I apologize for the delay on assignment
>>> and don't expect you to have elaborated for our call tomorrow but rather
>>> give an initial review so we can further discuss in our call tomorrow.
>>>
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>>
>>> León
>>>
>>>
>>> El 14/04/2015, a las 16:42, List for the work of CCWG-Accountability
>>> Legal SubTeam <ccwg-accountability5 at icann.org> escribió:
>>>
>>> Happy to review with direction from Legal Subteam.  Please provide
>>> direction ASAP. Holly
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent with Good (www.good.com
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.good.com_&d=AwMF-g&c=Od00qP2XTg0tXf_H69-T2w&r=1-1w8mU_eFprE2Nn9QnYf01XIV88MOwkXwHYEbF2Y_8&m=L61uyQoMoLQNKeNS8IeUq8PGBHFxIbf8OsQyldAA_x8&s=LHjEeG-lgFP24N041IFPvPpBrLyEgzqw7SUm06JPFj4&e=>
>>> )
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> *From:* ccwg-accountability5-bounces at icann.org on behalf of List for
>>> the work of CCWG-Accountability Legal SubTeam
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 14, 2015 03:45:49 PM
>>> *To:* ccwg-accountability5 at icann.org
>>> *Cc:* Accountability Cross Community
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Acct-Legal] [CCWG-ACCT] community powers comparison:
>>> designator & membership model - what powers can we create and how to
>>> enforce them?
>>> Fantastic work Robin and much appreciated!
>>>
>>> I echo Greg's comments concerning  the role of litigation in both
>>> models. I do like the format and I think it would be a great idea to have
>>> it reviewed and improved upon, if necessary, by counsel, for distribution
>>> to the general list.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Ed
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 8:19 PM, List for the work of
>>> CCWG-Accountability Legal SubTeam <ccwg-accountability5 at icann.org>
>>> wrote:
>>> Robin,
>>>
>>> Thank you for this.  A great deal of effort clearly went into this and
>>> this should develop into a very useful tool.  However, I think we will need
>>> to have this reviewed by legal counsel before we rely on it.  Having
>>> reviewed this briefly, I am uncertain that at this stage this document
>>> accurately captures the legal advice, particularly with regard to how the
>>> rights can be enforced.
>>>
>>> Specifically, this seems to give the impression that, if the membership
>>> model were chosen, the members would be limited to running off to court in
>>> most cases should rights need to be enforced.  I'm fairly confident that is
>>> not the case.  I believe that the remedies listed for the designator model,
>>> particularly changes to the bylaws and the IRP, are equally available in
>>> the member model.  With regard to litigation, I think the distinction is
>>> that the designators have no ability to litigate on behalf of the
>>> corporation, while this is one possibility (but far from the only one)
>>> available to members.  In other words, such litigation is an extra power,
>>> not the only power, available to members.
>>>
>>> The Legal Sub Team (copied here) should discuss how to proceed.
>>>
>>> Thank you again for taking the laboring oar in pulling this together!
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Greg
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 2:35 PM, Robin Gross <robin at ipjustice.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello Team,
>>>
>>> What we need to do is take a hard look at both the membership model and
>>> the designator model and understand what rights can be created and how will
>>> they be enforced.  Once we understand what we *can* do, we need to look at
>>> the pros/cons of the different models and evaluate accordingly.
>>>
>>> But first, we need to understand what *can* be done so we can discuss
>>> *if* we ought to do it and what is the best means.
>>>
>>> So I've taken a first pass of each of the 6 community empowerment goals
>>> and created a comparison table to lay-out what rights can be created and
>>> how they can be enforced.  I've combed through all the 200+ pages of legal
>>> memos, today's CCWG call, and calls of the legal sub-team to compile this
>>> info into one table so the models can begin to be evaluated side-by-side.
>>>
>>> The doc is attached and also here is a link to the table comparing the 2
>>> models:
>>>
>>> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kkkRBpMUkTpD5_RP_Ogo1PTGzGt2kC6f1xooHfJXRBc/edit?usp=sharing
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__docs.google.com_spreadsheets_d_1kkkRBpMUkTpD5-5FRP-5FOgo1PTGzGt2kC6f1xooHfJXRBc_edit-3Fusp-3Dsharing&d=AwMFaQ&c=Od00qP2XTg0tXf_H69-T2w&r=1-1w8mU_eFprE2Nn9QnYf01XIV88MOwkXwHYEbF2Y_8&m=nyDQdlri5xYHMimBihFhuPRDmv90jS4gFWrucTjoxrM&s=nn6UHsMF-YpzD09pBcaHOa5b41fXAi_G4BJGOV2NU4A&e=>
>>>
>>> I am hopeful it can begin to help us to wrap our minds around what our
>>> goals are and how they could be accomplished by the two models at play.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Robin
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Jordan Carter
>>>
>>> Chief Executive
>>> *InternetNZ*
>>>
>>> 04 495 2118 (office) | +64 21 442 649 (mob)
>>> jordan at internetnz.net.nz
>>> Skype: jordancarter
>>>
>>> *A better world through a better Internet *
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list
>>> Accountability-Cross-Community at icann.org
>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community
>>>
>>>
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>>> Ccwg-accountability5 at icann.org
>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ccwg-accountability5
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Jordan Carter
>>>
>>> Chief Executive
>>> *InternetNZ*
>>>
>>> 04 495 2118 (office) | +64 21 442 649 (mob)
>>> jordan at internetnz.net.nz
>>> Skype: jordancarter
>>>
>>> *A better world through a better Internet *
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ccwg-accountability5 mailing list
>>> Ccwg-accountability5 at icann.org
>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ccwg-accountability5
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jordan Carter
>>
>> Chief Executive
>> *InternetNZ*
>>
>> 04 495 2118 (office) | +64 21 442 649 (mob)
>> jordan at internetnz.net.nz
>> Skype: jordancarter
>>
>> *A better world through a better Internet *
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list
>> Accountability-Cross-Community at icann.org
>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community
>>
>>
>


-- 
Jordan Carter

Chief Executive
*InternetNZ*

04 495 2118 (office) | +64 21 442 649 (mob)
jordan at internetnz.net.nz
Skype: jordancarter

*A better world through a better Internet *
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