[CCWG-ACCT] [Acct-Legal] community powers comparison: designator & membership model - what powers can we create and how to enforce them?
Greg Shatan
gregshatanipc at gmail.com
Thu Apr 16 05:09:30 UTC 2015
I think that qualifies as a Freudian slip....
In any event, there is no Friday call (as far as those of us in the
Americas and Europe are concerned) (the Thursday call is a Friday call in
Asia/New Zealand/Australia).
Therefore, we need to consider what is the appropriate deadline for this
chart. I don't know when the next WP1 call is after the one upcoming in 15
hours. The next full CCWG call is not until Tuesday April 21 19.00 UTC
(Day and time are UTC).
Greg Shatan
On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 12:58 AM, List for the work of CCWG-Accountability
Legal SubTeam <ccwg-accountability5 at icann.org> wrote:
> That was meant to be : We need time....
>
>
>
> Sent with Good (www.good.com)
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* ccwg-accountability5-bounces at icann.org on behalf of List for the
> work of CCWG-Accountability Legal SubTeam
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 15, 2015 11:56:28 PM
> *To:* ccwg-accountability5 at icann.org; Jordan Carter
>
> *Cc:* ACCT-Staff; ccwg-accountability5 at icann.org; Accountability Cross
> Community
> *Subject:* Re: [Acct-Legal] [CCWG-ACCT] community powers comparison:
> designator & membership model - what powers can we create and how to
> enforce them?
>
> Dear CCWG, We will not be on the call. We bleed time to comment on the
> chart which was only received this afternoon. We will plan to have the
> chart to you on Friday morning. Thank you, Holly
>
>
>
> Sent with Good (www.good.com)
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* ccwg-accountability5-bounces at icann.org on behalf of List for the
> work of CCWG-Accountability Legal SubTeam
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 15, 2015 11:45:07 PM
> *To:* Jordan Carter
> *Cc:* ACCT-Staff; ccwg-accountability5 at icann.org; Accountability Cross
> Community
> *Subject:* Re: [Acct-Legal] [CCWG-ACCT] community powers comparison:
> designator & membership model - what powers can we create and how to
> enforce them?
>
> 4 hours before the call is 8 am on the West Coast (where it is now 9:45
> PM) and 11 am on the East Coast (where it is now 12:45 AM). I tend to doubt
> that 4 hours prior to the call is likely to happen, since most of the
> difference between 12 hours and 4 hours is overnight for us.
>
> I also realized as I looked at this that we had a day-conversion
> misunderstanding as well, since we were responding to your email "I know
> this is bold, but is there any chance a reviewed copy might be available
> for discussion in WP1 on Friday?" Unfortunately, you were referring to
> your Friday, but our Thursday. Not realizing that on the legal sub team
> call, we discussed having the lawyers ready the document in anticipation of
> a Friday call (our Friday). Even that would be a short turn-around, but not
> short enough for a call that's really happening on Thursday.
>
> In any event, I am going to circulate to the main list a copy of the
> second draft that counsel is reviewing, so people know what is happening,
> and know not to refer to the first draft.
>
> Greg
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 12:31 AM, Jordan Carter <jordan at internetnz.net.nz>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi there - if it's four or so hours that is still OK. But aside from
>> that, too late, and we won't ask people to read it as a late paper.
>>
>> I'd like to emphasise that that's OK - the input is primarily for a
>> debate that the CCWG as a whole is having, and so this work will be a very
>> useful tool for that.
>>
>> thanks,
>> Jordan
>>
>>
>> On 16 April 2015 at 16:27, León Felipe Sánchez Ambía <
>> leonfelipe at sanchez.mx> wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you Rosemary,
>>>
>>> Here’s a link to a tool that might prove to be useful while converting
>>> into UTC
>>> http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/converted.html?iso=20150416T07&p1=0&p2=155
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.timeanddate.com_worldclock_converted.html-3Fiso-3D20150416T07-26p1-3D0-26p2-3D155&d=AwMFaQ&c=Od00qP2XTg0tXf_H69-T2w&r=1-1w8mU_eFprE2Nn9QnYf01XIV88MOwkXwHYEbF2Y_8&m=LvO8B-D1Rxm5xCTy895DeqdagJLVvKnf7ToKpETqGwQ&s=AY_zWcVLvbTbKWBJhgG0gaKY8Y5EtRPuJZV66Zf6xGs&e=>
>>>
>>> And yes, that is in less than three hours.
>>>
>>> Jordan, can you confirme Counsel won’t be required in the call?
>>>
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>>
>>> León
>>>
>>> El 15/04/2015, a las 23:20, List for the work of CCWG-Accountability
>>> Legal SubTeam <ccwg-accountability5 at icann.org> escribió:
>>>
>>> León and Jordan:
>>>
>>> I’m new to converting from UTC, but I believe the deadline (0700 UTC)
>>> is in less than three hours. If that’s correct, then no, legal counsel
>>> cannot have our comments to Robin’s chart ready by then.
>>>
>>> Rosemary
>>>
>>> *From:* ccwg-accountability5-bounces at icann.org [
>>> mailto:ccwg-accountability5-bounces at icann.org
>>> <ccwg-accountability5-bounces at icann.org>] *On Behalf Of *List for the
>>> work of CCWG-Accountability Legal SubTeam
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 15, 2015 9:04 PM
>>> *To:* Jordan Carter
>>> *Cc:* ACCT-Staff; ccwg-accountability5 at icann.org; Accountability Cross
>>> Community
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Acct-Legal] [CCWG-ACCT] community powers comparison:
>>> designator & membership model - what powers can we create and how to
>>> enforce them?
>>>
>>> Thanks for the quick return Jordan.
>>>
>>> Counsel, is Jordan’s message clear?
>>>
>>> Your attendance would be needed on WP1 call *only* if the document is
>>> ready under the stated times.
>>>
>>> Would this timeline be able to be met?
>>>
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>>
>>> León
>>>
>>>
>>> El 15/04/2015, a las 22:10, Jordan Carter <jordan at internetnz.net.nz>
>>> escribió:
>>>
>>> Hi folks
>>>
>>> If the lawyers are on track to finish adding their material / views
>>> to the table that Robin proposed and are ready to circulate that to me and
>>> everyone else by 0700 UTC on Thursday, then *yes*, I would like to
>>> invite them to be the first item on the call, from 1900 to 1920 on the call
>>> on Thursday (UTC).
>>>
>>> Otherwise, no counsel are required.
>>>
>>> We won't deal with any material that can't reach the 12h deadline,
>>> unless it's like 11h or 10h.
>>>
>>> So - please advise ASAP the timeline.
>>>
>>> IN terms of what we have to do on that call, introducing this
>>> material will be helpful, but we don't need to make decisions on it. That's
>>> why it is a 20 mins slot at the start of the call - we do have to finish
>>> the rest.
>>>
>>>
>>> thanks,
>>> Jordan
>>>
>>>
>>> On 16 April 2015 at 13:08, León Felipe Sánchez Ambía <
>>> leonfelipe at sanchez.mx> wrote:
>>> Dear Jordan,
>>>
>>> Could you please confirm whether you will be needing the lawyers to
>>> attend your call on Friday?
>>>
>>> Staff, if Jordan does confirm the need to invite the lawyers, could
>>> you please make sure they get the invitations with the call details?
>>>
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>>
>>> León
>>>
>>>
>>> El 15/04/2015, a las 19:56, List for the work of CCWG-Accountability
>>> Legal SubTeam <ccwg-accountability5 at icann.org> escribió:
>>>
>>> Dear Leon and Jordan,
>>>
>>> Could you please let us know if outside counsel is being asked to
>>> join the WP1 call on Friday referenced below, and if so, could you let us
>>> know the time of the call and arrange for an invitation to be sent to us?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> *TYLER* *HILTON*
>>> Associate
>>>
>>> *Sidley Austin LLP*
>>> +1.213.896.6130
>>>
>>> thilton at sidley.com
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* ccwg-accountability5-bounces at icann.org [
>>> mailto:ccwg-accountability5-bounces at icann.org
>>> <ccwg-accountability5-bounces at icann.org>] *On Behalf Of *List for the
>>> work of CCWG-Accountability Legal SubTeam
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 15, 2015 4:01 AM
>>> *To:* ccwg-accountability5 at icann.org; Jordan Carter
>>> *Cc:* ccwg-accountability5 at icann.org; Accountability Cross Community
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Acct-Legal] [CCWG-ACCT] community powers comparison:
>>> designator & membership model - what powers can we create and how to
>>> enforce them?
>>>
>>> Dear Leon and Jordan, We should be able to have this ready within
>>> the next day or so and definitely prior to Friday's call. Kind regards,
>>> Holly.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent with Good (www.good.com
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.good.com_&d=AwMFaQ&c=Od00qP2XTg0tXf_H69-T2w&r=1-1w8mU_eFprE2Nn9QnYf01XIV88MOwkXwHYEbF2Y_8&m=LvO8B-D1Rxm5xCTy895DeqdagJLVvKnf7ToKpETqGwQ&s=h9pLLXl7T4pRNFhpAqHV43QdKF3j4p2qelHPtEr0A8s&e=>
>>> )
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> *From:* ccwg-accountability5-bounces at icann.org on behalf of List for
>>> the work of CCWG-Accountability Legal SubTeam
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 15, 2015 12:32:18 AM
>>> *To:* Jordan Carter
>>> *Cc:* ccwg-accountability5 at icann.org; Accountability Cross Community
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Acct-Legal] [CCWG-ACCT] community powers comparison:
>>> designator & membership model - what powers can we create and how to
>>> enforce them?
>>> Dear Holly and Rosemary,
>>>
>>> Would Jordan’s request be possible?
>>>
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>>
>>> León
>>>
>>>
>>> El 15/04/2015, a las 0:26, Jordan Carter <jordan at internetnz.net.nz>
>>> escribió:
>>>
>>>
>>> I know this is bold, but is there any chance a reviewed copy might be
>>> available for discussion in WP1 on Friday?
>>> Many thanks
>>> Jordan
>>>
>>> On 15 April 2015 at 17:00, List for the work of CCWG-Accountability
>>> Legal SubTeam <ccwg-accountability5 at icann.org> wrote:
>>> Dear Holly and Rosemary,
>>>
>>>
>>> Please do review Robin’s table. I apologize for the delay on
>>> assignment and don’t expect you to have elaborated for our call tomorrow
>>> but rather give an initial review so we can further discuss in our call
>>> tomorrow.
>>>
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>>
>>> León
>>>
>>>
>>> El 14/04/2015, a las 16:42, List for the work of CCWG-Accountability
>>> Legal SubTeam <ccwg-accountability5 at icann.org> escribió:
>>>
>>> Happy to review with direction from Legal Subteam. Please provide
>>> direction ASAP. Holly
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent with Good (www.good.com
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.good.com_&d=AwMF-g&c=Od00qP2XTg0tXf_H69-T2w&r=1-1w8mU_eFprE2Nn9QnYf01XIV88MOwkXwHYEbF2Y_8&m=L61uyQoMoLQNKeNS8IeUq8PGBHFxIbf8OsQyldAA_x8&s=LHjEeG-lgFP24N041IFPvPpBrLyEgzqw7SUm06JPFj4&e=>
>>> )
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> *From:* ccwg-accountability5-bounces at icann.org on behalf of List for
>>> the work of CCWG-Accountability Legal SubTeam
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 14, 2015 03:45:49 PM
>>> *To:* ccwg-accountability5 at icann.org
>>> *Cc:* Accountability Cross Community
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Acct-Legal] [CCWG-ACCT] community powers comparison:
>>> designator & membership model - what powers can we create and how to
>>> enforce them?
>>> Fantastic work Robin and much appreciated!
>>>
>>> I echo Greg's comments concerning the role of litigation in both
>>> models. I do like the format and I think it would be a great idea to have
>>> it reviewed and improved upon, if necessary, by counsel, for distribution
>>> to the general list.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Ed
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 8:19 PM, List for the work of
>>> CCWG-Accountability Legal SubTeam <ccwg-accountability5 at icann.org>
>>> wrote:
>>> Robin,
>>>
>>> Thank you for this. A great deal of effort clearly went into this
>>> and this should develop into a very useful tool. However, I think we will
>>> need to have this reviewed by legal counsel before we rely on it. Having
>>> reviewed this briefly, I am uncertain that at this stage this document
>>> accurately captures the legal advice, particularly with regard to how the
>>> rights can be enforced.
>>>
>>> Specifically, this seems to give the impression that, if the
>>> membership model were chosen, the members would be limited to running off
>>> to court in most cases should rights need to be enforced. I'm fairly
>>> confident that is not the case. I believe that the remedies listed for the
>>> designator model, particularly changes to the bylaws and the IRP, are
>>> equally available in the member model. With regard to litigation, I think
>>> the distinction is that the designators have no ability to litigate on
>>> behalf of the corporation, while this is one possibility (but far from the
>>> only one) available to members. In other words, such litigation is an
>>> extra power, not the only power, available to members.
>>>
>>> The Legal Sub Team (copied here) should discuss how to proceed.
>>>
>>> Thank you again for taking the laboring oar in pulling this together!
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Greg
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 2:35 PM, Robin Gross <robin at ipjustice.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello Team,
>>>
>>> What we need to do is take a hard look at both the membership model and
>>> the designator model and understand what rights can be created and how will
>>> they be enforced. Once we understand what we *can* do, we need to look at
>>> the pros/cons of the different models and evaluate accordingly.
>>>
>>> But first, we need to understand what *can* be done so we can discuss
>>> *if* we ought to do it and what is the best means.
>>>
>>> So I've taken a first pass of each of the 6 community empowerment goals
>>> and created a comparison table to lay-out what rights can be created and
>>> how they can be enforced. I've combed through all the 200+ pages of legal
>>> memos, today's CCWG call, and calls of the legal sub-team to compile this
>>> info into one table so the models can begin to be evaluated side-by-side.
>>>
>>> The doc is attached and also here is a link to the table comparing the 2
>>> models:
>>>
>>> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kkkRBpMUkTpD5_RP_Ogo1PTGzGt2kC6f1xooHfJXRBc/edit?usp=sharing
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__docs.google.com_spreadsheets_d_1kkkRBpMUkTpD5-5FRP-5FOgo1PTGzGt2kC6f1xooHfJXRBc_edit-3Fusp-3Dsharing&d=AwMFaQ&c=Od00qP2XTg0tXf_H69-T2w&r=1-1w8mU_eFprE2Nn9QnYf01XIV88MOwkXwHYEbF2Y_8&m=nyDQdlri5xYHMimBihFhuPRDmv90jS4gFWrucTjoxrM&s=nn6UHsMF-YpzD09pBcaHOa5b41fXAi_G4BJGOV2NU4A&e=>
>>>
>>> I am hopeful it can begin to help us to wrap our minds around what our
>>> goals are and how they could be accomplished by the two models at play.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Robin
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list
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>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
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>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ccwg-accountability5 mailing list
>>> Ccwg-accountability5 at icann.org
>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ccwg-accountability5
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mm.icann.org_mailman_listinfo_ccwg-2Daccountability5&d=AwMF-g&c=Od00qP2XTg0tXf_H69-T2w&r=1-1w8mU_eFprE2Nn9QnYf01XIV88MOwkXwHYEbF2Y_8&m=L61uyQoMoLQNKeNS8IeUq8PGBHFxIbf8OsQyldAA_x8&s=sJHDcvnEi1W6AvOIz0SV4XF3u0_DqEwmtpAcSJFJaFU&e=>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Jordan Carter
>>>
>>> Chief Executive
>>> *InternetNZ*
>>>
>>> 04 495 2118 (office) | +64 21 442 649 <%2B64%2021%20442%20649> (mob)
>>> jordan at internetnz.net.nz
>>> Skype: jordancarter
>>>
>>> *A better world through a better Internet *
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list
>>> Accountability-Cross-Community at icann.org
>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community
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>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ccwg-accountability5 mailing list
>>> Ccwg-accountability5 at icann.org
>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ccwg-accountability5
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Jordan Carter
>>>
>>> Chief Executive
>>> *InternetNZ*
>>>
>>> 04 495 2118 (office) | +64 21 442 649 (mob)
>>> jordan at internetnz.net.nz
>>> Skype: jordancarter
>>>
>>> *A better world through a better Internet *
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ccwg-accountability5 mailing list
>>> Ccwg-accountability5 at icann.org
>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ccwg-accountability5
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mm.icann.org_mailman_listinfo_ccwg-2Daccountability5&d=AwMFaQ&c=Od00qP2XTg0tXf_H69-T2w&r=1-1w8mU_eFprE2Nn9QnYf01XIV88MOwkXwHYEbF2Y_8&m=LvO8B-D1Rxm5xCTy895DeqdagJLVvKnf7ToKpETqGwQ&s=CVG6b925etyTVViQSmqvc-RDqo1A_664oRCF3s-rFvw&e=>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jordan Carter
>>
>> Chief Executive
>> *InternetNZ*
>>
>> 04 495 2118 (office) | +64 21 442 649 (mob)
>> jordan at internetnz.net.nz
>> Skype: jordancarter
>>
>> *A better world through a better Internet *
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list
>> Accountability-Cross-Community at icann.org
>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mm.icann.org_mailman_listinfo_accountability-2Dcross-2Dcommunity&d=AwMFaQ&c=Od00qP2XTg0tXf_H69-T2w&r=1-1w8mU_eFprE2Nn9QnYf01XIV88MOwkXwHYEbF2Y_8&m=LvO8B-D1Rxm5xCTy895DeqdagJLVvKnf7ToKpETqGwQ&s=hydRKbCTpjN_29OraEaxkd4ILl6C4oMgjo5mF8JAP94&e=>
>>
>>
>
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