[CCWG-Accountability] the term "community"

Tue Jan 13 01:56:23 UTC 2015

LA Municipal requirements for businesses/non profits are within this page
which turns up the obligations of compliance and, as with all
municipalities/towns/villages to be of concern
http://lacity.org/businesses/CitywideServices/index.htm?laCategory=316
Sincerely
Carrie Devorah
www.centerforcopyrightintegrity.com

On Mon, Jan 12, 2015 at 6:34 PM, Dr Eberhard W Lisse <el at lisse.na> wrote:

> I could not have put it more succinctly :-)-O
>
> Though the incorrect use of the terminology irritates me, as a fellow
> member of the former DRD and FoI Wg, it's not IANA, is either the IANA
> Function or the IANA Function Manager.
>
> el
>
> Sent from Dr Lisse's iPad mini
>
> On Jan 13, 2015, at 01:14, Burr, Becky <Becky.Burr at neustar.biz> wrote:
>
>  Perhaps it would help to be clear about when we are speaking about
> matters within ICANN’s mission and scope, and when we are not.
>
>  When it comes to country code top level domains (ccTLDs), the
> conclusions of the Framework of Interpretation Working Group (the FOIWG
> Report) speak to a rather limited set of circumstances – revocation and
> delegation *by IANA* in response to technical incompetence and
> substantial misbehavior as defined in RFC 1591.  Those conclusions do not,
> however, deprive any government of any right it may have under *applicable
> law* with respect to the operation of a ccTLD subject to its
> jurisdiction.  Likewise, those conclusions do not deprive any ccTLD manager
> of his/her/its rights under *applicable law – whether contractual or
> otherwise*.  The FOIWG report is consistent with community consensus that
> disputes regarding operation of a ccTLD should ordinarily be resolved
> in-country/territory, consistent with the rule of law, and respecting the
> rights of both registry operators and significantly interested parties,
> including the relevant government.  I say “ordinarily” because there are
> limited exceptions – for example, where DNS stability/security issues arise
> or where the circumstances under which a ccTLD was delegated (i.e., as Dr.
> Lisse points out, before RFC 1591) or operates (i.e., under a specific
> contract) compel a different result.  So, when it comes to the role of the
> “government” in the context of a ccTLD, a government will ordinarily have
> all of the authority granted by applicable law to compel an outcome
> consistent with the rule of law.  This does not strike me as governments
> having a lower status than other players.  But most of this time this is
> outside of the scope of the IANA functions, and we should not seek to
> expand IANA functions beyond the remit of RFC 1591.
>
>  Within the scope of ICANN’s remit, I often find the GAC’s role to be
> less than fully satisfying.  It is an “advisory” body on the one hand, but
> from time to time GAC Advice has been used to veto community developed
> policy.  That troubles me, particularly when the Advice is difficult to
> reconcile with ICANN’s Bylaws.  I think that the cross-community working
> groups on the IANA transition and on accountability offer us an opportunity
> to include members of the GAC in the real-time policy development process.
> Although I don’t agree with everything Mr. Arasteh says, I certainly
> welcome his willingness to be an active part of the process.
>
>  Becky Burr
>
>
>  J. Beckwith Burr
>
> *Neustar, Inc. /* Deputy General Counsel and Chief Privacy Officer
>
> 1775 Pennsylvania Avenue NW, Washington, DC 20006
>
> Office: + 1.202.533.2932  Mobile:  +1.202.352.6367  /
> becky.burr at neustar.biz / www.neustar.biz
>
>   From: Kavouss Arasteh <kavouss.arasteh at gmail.com>
> Date: Sunday, January 11, 2015 at 4:39 AM
> To: Eberhard Lisse <el at lisse.na>
> Cc: "directors at omadhina.net" <directors at omadhina.net>, Accountability
> Community <accountability-cross-community at icann.org>
> Subject: Re: [CCWG-Accountability] the term "community"
>
>   Dear Dr. Eberhard W.Lisse,
> Thank you very much for your reply
> First of all, I appologize if I have bothered you referring to you as
> Eberhard and not your full name as you wished to be so called .
> I have noted that  you referred to me as Mr. Kavouss Arasteh and not my
> first name Kavouss .
> Secondly, I have not referred to the outcome of NetMundial as the
> Declaration was a totally Non Binding and simply a declaration.
> It was an evenet and we aprreciate the organizer of that event.
> What I referred to was that atleast there was reference to the footing of
> each entitiy and each constituency of the Global Multistakeholder .
> Whther that categorisation ( four main categories ) was or was not wrong
> that is another issue .
> I do not intend to evaluate the performance and actions taken by various
> governments as this is not a proper forum and I do not have such mandate to
> do so.
> What I am trying to find out is where is the Government's role in this
> business?
> The only area that they are appearing is the GAC .which is simply has an
> advisory nature where as other players as per any structural arrangements
> has a decision making role .
> If the Internet and ICANN is an inclussive and democratic process why
> governments are treated with lower status than other players?
> On the other hand I have noted that an individual make comments to the
> process on its own behalf which create some legitimacy inconsistencies as
> it is not clear whom that person representing.When ICANN referrs to many
> comments received from those individuals who do not represtiative of many
> many other individuals and ICANN reacts based on such non representative
> views .That bothers me
> Do you have a solution to propose to remedy these two basic problems?
> Regards
> Kavouss
>
> 2015-01-11 7:00 GMT+01:00 Dr Eberhard W Lisse <el at lisse.na>:
>
>>  Dear Mr Arasteh,
>>
>>  it is a real privilege seeing a professional, experienced, government
>> negotiator at work.
>>
>>
>>  My position is very clear and has been over many years, as far as
>> ccTLDs are concerned, in particular .NA.
>>
>>  For each, the corresponding Manager is the ONLY party concerned to have
>> any, if at all, relationship of any kind with the IANA function operator.
>> In other words, individually, not represented by any organization of any
>> kind.
>>
>>  This has particular implication for CURRENT ccTLD Managers and their
>> (existing) rights, as stated in the 2005 GAC Principles and the Framework
>> of Interpretation Principles.
>>
>>  It is self evident that any citizen or inhabitant of a country is
>> subject to the law of the land, however harsh or in violation of
>> international conventions and or human rights they may be, but the ccTLD
>> management is only subject to security and stability of the Internet.
>> Nothing else.
>>
>>  Only in cases of substantial misconduct can the IANA Function Manager
>> intervene.
>>
>>  To be very clear, there is not even a good foundation for this in
>> RFC1591, but the FoI Wg found, after considerable discussion, consensus,
>> because it is so easy to do an honest, equitable and reasonable job.
>>
>>  This all stems from the fact that many of the ccTLDs, most certainly
>> .NA, predate ICANN, the RFC1591 to which nevertheless most of us abide by
>> voluntarily (as it does make mostly sense), and even the flimsy claim the
>> US Government alleges over the IANA Function (and the root), the so called
>> Teranode Contract.
>>
>>  So they, and most certainly the ccTLD Manager for .NA and I, do have
>> existing rights, and I do not wish to even introduce the property aspects
>> here. Some even say ccTLDs predating ICANN have contracts with Mr
>> Postel's estate, but then I doubt it'll ever get to that stage.
>>
>>  Existing rights can not retroactively be interfered with by a third
>> party (unilaterally).
>>
>>  This is all so convoluted that it required almost 5 years (or more?) of
>> work of the DRD and FoI Wg(s) to get to consensus.
>>
>>  And, as far as accountability is concerned it would make things so much
>> easier if each (current) ccTLD Manager entered into a proper Contract with
>> the IANA Function Manager, which at the same time would prevent the legal
>> limbo the IANA Function Manager will find itself in with regards to ccTLDs
>> as soon as the USG releases its claim to the IANA Function and the root,
>> however flimsy this may be.
>>
>>  As far as selection of a NEW Manager for a ccTLD is concerned, ie if a
>> vacancy arises, this is another matter. Of course the government will be a
>> significantly interested party as (many) others.
>>
>>  The NEW ccTLD Manager of course may be subject to more oversight (in
>> terms of conditions of appointment, for lack of a better word) which
>> however is not my problem, more like a concern.
>>
>>  Whether my position reflects a consensus of ccTLDs or not, I am not in
>> doubt here.
>>
>>  As far as gTLDs are concerned, they are first of all not my problem,
>> and second of all they have entered into contracts individually, so they
>> (may) have given away some rights themselves.
>>
>>  Protocols and addresses I am not that involved in and familiar with,
>> personally, and from a governance perspective, but I trust the IETF
>> process, even though property aspects of IP addresses are intriguing.
>>
>>
>>  That said, I am vehemently opposed against ANY infringement, whatsoever
>> and however small, of fundamental human rights, such as, inter alia,
>> equality, freedom of speech, or publish cartoons for that matter, and what
>> the German Constitutional Court calls Informational Self Determination.
>>
>>  Some governments have an worse track records than others, and some
>> governments are more active in taking control over the Internet than
>> others. And sovereignty doesn't trump everything else, by default.
>>
>>  I totally disagree with the mere existence of Netmundial, and can state
>> unequivocally, again, that I will formally object in any consensus poll
>> against any anything related thereto.
>>
>>  greetings, el
>>
>> Sent from Dr Lisse's iPad mini
>>
>> On Jan 10, 2015, at 23:46, Kavouss Arasteh <kavouss.arasteh at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>   Dear Eberhard
>> NTIA did say that .
>> It stated that it does not allow that any individual government or any
>> government oriented or intergovernmental organization control the Internet
>>  It seems that yopu are not in favouir of involving governments as part
>> of multistakeholder at all.
>> In that case Internet being inclussive and democratic is simply a slogan
>> and nothing else.
>> I do not agree with your argument at all
>> Tks and have a nice week-end
>> Kavouss
>>
>> 2015-01-10 22:18 GMT+01:00 Dr Eberhard W Lisse <el at lisse.na>:
>>
>>>  Netmundial and its ideas will not receive consensus. Nor will
>>> (significant) government involvement.
>>>
>>>  Never mind that the NTIA has stated that governments will not be in
>>> charge.
>>>
>>>  el
>>>
>>> Sent from Dr Lisse's iPad mini
>>>
>>> On Jan 10, 2015, at 16:29, Kavouss Arasteh <kavouss.arasteh at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>   Dear Bruce,
>>> Thank you very much for your message.
>>> I hope I have not bothered you.
>>> Listen, the term " Community" was used and is being used in the entire
>>> ICANN even NTIA used that term
>>> If you read ICG and CWG and CCWG charters and correspondence, hundreds
>>> of time refernce is made to that term.
>>> In many ICANN alert, ICANN publication, ICANN announcement the term "
>>> Community" has been used.I am surprised that you have not heard till now
>>> about that.
>>> In addition, NetMundial which ICANN was one of the supporting and
>>> contribulting entity  referred to   those four constituencies of Global
>>> Multistakeholder Community  composed  of Civil Society, Private Sector,
>>> Technical Community including academics and Governments.
>>> The composition of Executive Committee was 24 memebrs 12 from
>>> Governments and 12 from the rest . That is why I referred to it as a
>>> defacto agreement.
>>> In WSIS also several refernces were made to these four categories of
>>> stakeholder
>>>  I am sorry I can not agree with your definition or description .It may
>>> be suitable for these activities that we are doing .
>>>  See NTIA Announcement of 14 March 2014 in which this term is used )
>>> In regard with your description of community , I am soory to disagree
>>> with you .Your description may be suitable for activities that we are doing
>>> ( ICG, CWG and CCWG ) However, for the overall issue of Global
>>> Multistakeholder Community  WE MUST TAKE THAT COMPOSITION USED IN
>>> NETMUNDIALand other fora .
>>> Internal organicgram of ICANN does not fuklly cover the issue.
>>> Moreover, there should be a footing criteria and legitimacy .You can not
>>> take view of an individual  and view of a " Community" witjh equal
>>> footing.It has been many cases in which an individual speaks on behalf of
>>> herself or himself thus the representation legitimacy is not observed .
>>>  Regards
>>> Kavouss
>>>
>>> 2015-01-10 12:21 GMT+01:00 Bruce Tonkin <Bruce.Tonkin at melbourneit.com.au
>>> >:
>>>
>>>> Hello Kavouss,
>>>>
>>>> >>  I have one question which continued to bother me as everyone refers
>>>> to "community"
>>>>
>>>> >>      What is that magic term "community» covers?
>>>>
>>>> >>      Does it includes or embrace the entire multistakeholders?
>>>>
>>>> >>      As it was discussed at several occasion, there is a defacto
>>>> agreement that ,generally speaking multistakeholder composed        of
>>>> Civil Society, Private Sector, Technical Community including academics,
>>>> Governments
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think that is a good question, and probably worth this group
>>>> considering some definitions around that topic.
>>>>
>>>> For me personally, I tend to think of the terms in the following way:
>>>>
>>>> "ICANN Community" - this is the group of people that participate in the
>>>> various ICANN working groups via email, phone, or websites,  and attend
>>>> ICANN meetings.     This group is made up of individuals from GNSO
>>>> constituencies and stakeholder groups, GAC, SSAC, ALAC, RSSAC, ccTLD
>>>> representatives, RIR representatives etc.    In my personal view, it is
>>>> multi-stakeholder in that it includes people from Civil Society, Private
>>>> Sector, Technical Community including academics, Governments.
>>>>
>>>> In addition to that there is a wider community of people that are
>>>> members of the various organizations that are in turn members of the
>>>> various groups that comprise the ICANN community.   As an example, I am a
>>>> member of the Internet Society of Australia (ISOC) which is part of the
>>>> Asia, Australasia and the Pacific Islands Regional At-Large Organisation
>>>> (APRALO) which is part of At-large.   ISOC in Australia may send a
>>>> representative to ICANN meetings.       A business might be a member of a
>>>> chamber of commerce or business association, which in turn could be a
>>>> member of the ICANN business constituency,  and that chamber of commerce or
>>>> business association may send a representative to an ICANN meeting as a
>>>> member of the ICANN community.   I don't have any specific name for this
>>>> wider group of people and organizations.
>>>>
>>>> Then there is term "public" which is used within the term "global
>>>> public interest".   In general, I personally think of the public in this
>>>> context as Internet users.   However you could also consider public  in
>>>> this context to be all the people of the world.   Even people that don't
>>>> directly use the Internet as a communication mechanism are probably
>>>> affected by it in some way.
>>>>
>>>> The fundamental responsibility of  the Board of ICANN  is to exercise
>>>> their judgment to act in what they reasonably believe to be the best
>>>> interests of the global public interest, taking account of the interests of
>>>> the Internet community as a whole rather than any individual group or
>>>> interest.    Its primary feedback mechanism for determining the global
>>>> public interest is the "ICANN community" described above.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Bruce Tonkin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>
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-- 
Sincerely
Carrie Devorah
562 688 2883

Founder
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