[CCWG-ACCT] Legal cost reality

Sun Jun 28 17:54:36 UTC 2015

Chris,

Thanks for the clarification.

Greg

On Sun, Jun 28, 2015 at 1:39 PM, Robin Gross <robin at ipjustice.org> wrote:

> Quick correction, of course I meant "Empowered *Designator"* model below
> in case there was any question.  I should have slept *before* sending.  ;-)
>
> Robin
>
>
> On Jun 27, 2015, at 5:21 PM, Robin Gross wrote:
>
> We have received significant quality legal advice from both firms and need
> to be a little understanding of how costs can be higher in this case than
> in a standard legal case.  We've got several dozen "clients" here -- all
> with expansive and contradictory requests and desires and coming from many
> countries and backgrounds, and that can lead to more legal work than a
> typical legal case.  From a corporate governance perspective, there hasn't
> ever been anything like ICANN before and it requires significantly more
> work and creative thinking than traditional and usual organizations would
> need.
>
> So let's try to focus on the work before us and what specific expertise is
> needed for the next phase of this effort.  The Empowered Delegate model is
> somewhat unique to California corporations law and a creature of California
> statutory and case law, so let's be sure to target our work going forward
> to the specific expertise that was retained for that piece of the overall
> work.  By not having several different attorneys/firms working on the same
> issues, and using the expertise in the more focused role for which it was
> retained, I think we can save both time and money going forward.
>
> Thanks,
> Robin
>
>
> On Jun 27, 2015, at 9:17 AM, Greg Shatan wrote:
>
> Seun,
>
> I do not know how you concluded, based on cost alone, that we did not do a
> good job of strategizing how/when to use outside counsel, or that counsel
> costs were unduly high.  To the contrary, significant amounts of (unpaid)
> time have been spent within the WG on deciding when and what outside
> counsel should do.  Of course, we can always strive to do better, and
> indeed, adjustments have been made a few times over the course of our work
> with counsel to refine our methods, and I'm sure adjustments will continue
> to be made.
>
> I actually think we have done a good job all along, and the cost reflects
> the amount of work that needed to be done.  Nothing more.  I don't think
> there's any need to "rewrite history," because that would imply that we
> failed in some significant respect.  I don't think that's the case, and I
> don't think that the cost alone is any evidence of that.
>
> Seun, to further tax your imagination, if I billed for all of my time
> spent dealing with ICANN matters, it would easily exceed $100,000 a month
> over the last several months. (In fact, I bill for almost none of my time
> spent on ICANN matters, but that's beside the point.)  That said, I am
> keenly aware that we all live and work in different economies and that what
> seems proportionate in one economy may seem disproportionate (high or low)
> in other economies.  (For instance, I noted that a $10 cab ride in Buenos
> Aires would have cost about $30 in New York City.)  Nonetheless, in the
> economy where this work needs to be done, and for the quality of services
> that we need, this is not a disproportionate amount.
>
> Finally, I would caution us against being unduly timid about using counsel
> when and where needed, because that is the surest path toward a suboptimal
> result, which would be a waste of time, effort and money for all of us.
>
> Greg
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 25, 2015 at 5:42 PM, Seun Ojedeji <seun.ojedeji at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> With due respect James, I am in no way belittling the work of legal
>> council. I am rather wondering how we as a community recognising this huge
>> cost did not better strategize on how/when to engage external council. The
>> amount that has been spent on all participants of the ccwg and cwg(for
>> remote/physical meetings) would seem to be competing with the total cost of
>> legal advice (perhaps legal would even be more).
>>
>> The deed has been done and we can't rewrite history. My comment is
>> targeted more on the fact that we need to think of how we engage legal more
>> efficiently going forward.
>>
>> For the record, when Greg said top notch council are expensive, 500k
>> monthly is just beyond my imagination!
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> sent from Google nexus 4
>> kindly excuse brevity and typos.
>> On 25 Jun 2015 18:23, "James Gannon" <james at cyberinvasion.net> wrote:
>>
>>>   Our legal advice has been critical to our process and Sidley have
>>> been crucial to our successes.
>>> I think we should be thanking them for their service, and yes top notch
>>> legal services are not cheap.
>>> It is most certainly something that I have no issue with the community
>>> exercising its prudence over however lets not limit ourselves in any way to
>>> engage with our counsel.
>>>
>>>  -James
>>>
>>>   From: <accountability-cross-community-bounces at icann.org> on behalf of
>>> Seun Ojedeji
>>> Date: Thursday 25 June 2015 18:20
>>> To: "accountability-cross-community at icann.org"
>>> Subject: [CCWG-ACCT] Fwd: Legal cost reality
>>>
>>>  Hi,
>>>
>>> Over 500k USD a month for legal is sure not how someone like me from
>>> developing region would like to see ICANN spend it's resources.
>>> It's my hope that this working group Co-Chairs would be sensitive of
>>> that fact!
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> sent from Google nexus 4
>>> kindly excuse brevity and typos.
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>> From: "Seun Ojedeji" <seun.ojedeji at gmail.com>
>>> Date: 25 Jun 2015 18:15
>>> Subject: Legal cost reality
>>> To: <cwg-stewardship at icann.org>
>>> Cc:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I hope those who want to always push issues to external legal advice
>>> would appreciate the need to be strategic and prudent about this. Over
>>> 500,000USD already spent on Sidley is definitely not what we like ICANN to
>>> keep spending it's resources on.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> sent from Google nexus 4
>>> kindly excuse brevity and typos.
>>>
>>
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