[arabic-vip] ZWNJ (earlier: [vip] Overarching principles used in Devanagari team report)

[Manal Ismail]

Dear All ..
I remember that when ZWNJ issue was raised:
- Andrew mentioned something along the lines that normally it's not secure to use a character that doesn't show
- I agreed with Andrew in principle, mentioned that from an Arabic 'Language' point of view ZWNJ is neither used nor known and refrained from providing views till we hear from other language communities who feel the need for ZWNJ 
- I also remember that then Siavash and/or Alireza confirmed that ZWNJ is needed within, I believe, the Persian language community ..
 
--Manal

________________________________

From: arabic-vip-bounces at icann.org on behalf of Siavash Shahshahani
Sent: Wed 21/09/2011 09:12 PM
To: Sarmad Hussain
Cc: Andrew Sullivan; arabic-vip at icann.org
Subject: Re: [arabic-vip] ZWNJ (earlier: [vip] Overarching principles used in Devanagari team report)



Here's an example of what could be a very reasonable domain name that
requires ZWNJ(maybe this will give someone the idea of applying!). 'Silk
Road' in Persian/Dari/Tajiki and perhaps some other languages is 
<??????????>
(pronounced Raahe Abrisham). This is considered a single word, but
rendering it without ZWNJ as
<?????????>
would look unpronounceable and very funny. And this could be a gTLD with
clients in Central Asia as I think it is the name of a network there.
Siavash

On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 23:47:32 -0700, "Sarmad Hussain"
<sarmad.hussain at kics.edu.pk> wrote:
> From what I recollect, there is no ban, but a discussion around it at
this
> time (e.g. there is a document restricting it which is currently being
> drafted and not in final stages).  However, ICANN VIP Team can advise.
>
> Regards,
> Sarmad
>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Siavash Shahshahani [mailto:shahshah at irnic.ir]
>>>Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 11:42 AM
>>>To: Sarmad Hussain
>>>Cc: Baher Esmat; Andrew Sullivan; arabic-vip at icann.org
>>>Subject: Re: [arabic-vip] [vip] Overarching principles used in
>>>Devanagari team report
>>>
>>>
>>>My recolection is similar to Sarmad's. I don't remember that we made a
>>>distinction between the occurrence of ZWNJ in TLD and the subordinate
>>>strings, but I may be wrong. If there's a general ban for the use of
>>>ZWNJ
>>>in TLDs, could someone provide a reference?
>>>Siavash
>>>
>>>On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 22:44:43 -0700, "Sarmad Hussain"
>>><sarmad.hussain at kics.edu.pk> wrote:
>>>> Dear Baher, Andrew, All,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your feedback.  We have the following text for ZWNJ in the
>>>> latest
>>>> version of the report on issues:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 200C (ZWNJ): Even though there may be some policy to restrict the use
>>>of
>>>> ZWNJ in the TLDs, the committee felt that due to its critical use in
>>>Arabic
>>>> script to separate ligatures which end with joining letters, there is
>>>a
>>>> need
>>>> for ZWNJ by the community for TLDs (even though there may be limited
>>>use
>>>at
>>>> this time).  Zero Width Non Joiner is needed in domain names in
>>>Arabic
>>>> script to separate multiple words within a label.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Though there is a defined rule which allows ZWNJ only in contexts
>>>where
>>>its
>>>> effect is visible, there are few contexts which ZWNJ may still not
>>>have
>>>a
>>>> visible impact.  This includes characters U+0637, U+0638 and U+069F.
>>>This
>>>> is indicated by the two sequences, one with and one without the ZWNJ:
>>>??
>>>> ???.  The ZWNJ should not be permitted following these three
>>>characters,
>>>> in
>>>> addition to the constraint already put on its use by the IDNA 2008
>>>protocol
>>>> (see RFC 5893).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have requested Baher for links to the audio recordings to re-check
>>>this.
>>>> However, other members attending the F2F meeting are also requested
>>>to
>>>> comment so that we can draft this text to correctly reflect what we
>>>> finalized.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Sarmad
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: arabic-vip-bounces at icann.org [mailto:arabic-vip-
>>>bounces at icann.org]
>>>On
>>>> Behalf Of Baher Esmat
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 9:08 AM
>>>> To: Andrew Sullivan; arabic-vip at icann.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [arabic-vip] [vip] Overarching principles used in
>>>Devanagari
>>>> team report
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 9/21/11 5:19 PM, "Andrew Sullivan" <ajs at crankycanuck.ca> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 07:59:27PM -0700, Sarmad Hussain wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> 2.       The Arabic Script Community is requesting the use of ZWNJ
>>>in
>>>> TLDs
>>>>>
>>>>> This is something that did not come clear to me in our face to face,
>>>>> but I know someone has asked for this on a mailing list.
>>>>
>>>> It was not that clear to me as well. I recall there was a discussion
>>>about
>>>> this during the f2f meeting but thought that there was no consensus
>>>on
>>>the
>>>> necessity to allow ZWNJ at TLD level, and the conclusion was that the
>>>team
>>>> would raise this as an issue in their final report.
>>>>
>>>> Baher
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I do like 1.6 (I think Andrew emphasized this as "delegation" in
>>>our
>>>> meeting
>>>>>> and it is an important point not very well understood by the
>>>community
>>>>>> (please correct me if I am wrong here)).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Sarmad
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: vip-bounces at icann.org [mailto:vip-bounces at icann.org] On
>>>Behalf
>>>Of
>>>>>> Naela Sarras
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 7:24 AM
>>>>>> To: vip at icann.org
>>>>>> Subject: [vip] Overarching principles used in Devanagari team
>>>report
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear colleagues,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> During a meeting of the Devanagari Case Study Team meeting last
>>>week,
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> team adopted a set of overarching principles that they will include
>>>in
>>>> their
>>>>>> Case Study Issues report. We are sharing this section of the report
>>>with
>>>> the
>>>>>> other case study teams in case they find it useful for their
>>>respective
>>>>>> reports.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Naela Sarras
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>