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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Dear All,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Here are some high-level notes from the discussions today at the ccPDP3-RM meeting on 19 May at 20 UTC.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Best regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Joke</span><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<ol style="margin-top:0cm" start="1" type="1">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1;vertical-align:baseline">
<b><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Welcome and roll call</span></b><o:p></o:p></li></ol>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Welcome by Chair Stephen Deerhake</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><br>
<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0cm;text-indent:0cm;mso-list:l4 level1 lfo2;vertical-align:baseline">
<![if !supportLists]><span style="mso-list:Ignore">2.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span><![endif]><b><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Administrative announcements, if any</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">ccPDP3-retirement: Report soon for consideration by council. First Council needs to decide on the separation, then Council can review the recommendations, and possibly adopt. Once that
is done, the ccnso membership needs to vote. Voting for ccPDP3 is expected to start around 6 July.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><br>
<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0cm;text-indent:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3;vertical-align:baseline">
<![if !supportLists]><span style="mso-list:Ignore">a.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span><![endif]><b><i><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Action items</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">None</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><br>
<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0cm;text-indent:0cm;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo4;vertical-align:baseline">
<![if !supportLists]><span style="mso-list:Ignore">3.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span><![endif]><b><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Principles | review options, processes, etc. after discussion with ICANN Legal</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Low cost and effective: preference from the previous meeting.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Bernie: Binding section.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">IRP: binding, but in a narrow sense. Board can still ignore, if in the interest of the corporation. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Question regarding “repose”. Similar to this point of being binding for at least 3 years. Icann was accommodating in other areas, but not here. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">That item will decide how we go forward.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">There is an opportunity for binding, but not through these mechanisms. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">If we decide to go another way than binding, we will probably get flexibility for other points. Probably a mechanism which we do not have right now. Key decision, which will dictate how
we work. To be discussed.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Eberhard: language of the RFC is clear. Decisions are binding. We are making a proposal for ICANN. If the board cannot do it, we will see. First opening of the round of negotiations.
A no in the 1st round does not mean anything. Do not lower our expectations, because icann legal will flex its muscles. If icann legal says it cannot be done, Eberhard does not wish to continue.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Stephen: another reason for continuing the conversation with ICANN legal. Any thoughts or input?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Eberhard: courts - binding. But smaller ccTLDs cannot avail themselves of this, because they do not have the resources. Should be fair to all parties involved, but we should strive for
binding. It depends what binding means.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Bernie: icann legal said that binding is not going to work. Binding in the IRP is maybe not what we think binding is. Argument similar to this in the review of the IRP. We can proceed
as this. One of the points is that we can try. The shape of a review mechanism with a binding recommendation for icann is different than a review mechanism which is not. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Keep it simple and low cost, means: keep the lawyers away. IRP cases are reaching into the millions of dollars for both sides, including for ICANN.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Eberhard: why are we doing this?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">We are ccTLDs. We make policies for ccNSO members. Starts to feel uncomfortable. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Bernie: benefit from experience in other areas. This group can decide the way it wants to do things.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Allan: we are extremely well served by you Bernie. I believe you are acting in good faith. We should spend some time on this, and understand each other clearly. Could you elaborate on
what binding means to Eberhard? Perhaps think about asking questions in writing to ICANN?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Stephen: binding vs non binding is something we need to hash out. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Peter: confidence in all, especially in staff involved in this.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">If we end up in a roadblock situation, what solutions are on the table? Other committees have consulted external legal advisors. Is that an option? Not because we do not trust icann legal,
because there is a conflict in goals there. At what point do we need to go back to Council, and inform them we have a problem?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Stephen: which council?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Peter: ccNSO Council</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Bernie: asking lawyers. This is not law we try to interpret. They have to look at how icann is structured and what can and cannot be done. In WS1 we had lawyers involved. High level.
They spent time looking at elements, in a context where the bylaws were going to change. We would need to ask lawyers who are comfortable with icann. In the end it is the board that decides at icann, until a judge decides otherwise. One of the key elements
for this group to decide. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Eberhard: what does binding mean?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">My comment is nothing personal to you. The decision binds both parties. Example transfer Mali. wrong decision, but the ccTLD manager has no alternative than going to court. There must
be a different avenue. Prevent icann from violating its own bylaws of the RFC as interpreted by FOI. We should be ambitious in our request. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Allan: do not want to go to a process until the end, and then being stopped. What would be the acceptable second best option? </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Stephen: engage again with icann legal. Formal polling of icann legal? Definition of what this group defines as binding, and then get response from icann legal</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Eberhard: ok. As a second step. First review the material that is available. We have lawyers in this group. Then we can talk to icann legal. Perhaps to set up a subgroup with legal knowledge?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Bernie: approach. Before we go to icann legal, a small group looks at available material. Is that the sydley memo?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Bart: That was the note sent by Sam. sydley note they prepared during the transition discussions. Scope of fiduciary responsibilities. Was not from icann legal. Circulated on 16 march.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Eberhard: material developed during the accountability process. Work that can inform our discussion. Fundamental fairness.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Stephen: memo by Sydley and Adler. Work stream 1 process. The question is how this memo was incorporated into icann version oct 2016 bylaws.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Bernie: staff can peel out relevant sections and prepare a topic paper for this group. First the full group, if needed potentially a legal subgroup, to look at it, and once the full group
agrees, go back to icann legal. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Maarten: did not hear full discussion. Is available for the small group. Ready to work with Nick. puzzled. Was on the iana WG at the time when the lawyers came up with the memo. Surprised
they say now it is impossible. Needs a deeper dive. Too simplified for now.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Bernie: sub group starts? Should staff pull together something first?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Eberhard: staff to prepare a list of available docs with summary of why it is relevant. And then the fill group to decide whether or not have sub group</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Allan: staff should not summarise complex legal opinions. Bring info together. Too much of a challenge to ask for a summary</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Bernie: staff would not provide an opinion</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Stephen: agrees with Allan. Group should look at this from a timeline basis. What was excluded from that memo, into the final thinking, in what became the bylaws? </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Bart: we know where to look in the archives. By the next meeting we will come up with a first batch of documents. See how the group wants to proceed. We could provide context on when
the document was produced, so you have an understanding. Suggest we already start looking at other topics in the meanwhile, otherwise we loose valuable time. Suggests to have a small group looking at this.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Eberhard: supports both suggestions.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Bernie: Staff will gather the relevant document by the next meeting. Potentially to form a sub-group. Objective will be to frame a question(s) for icann legal on “binding” in the context
of those documents.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Bart: nice conclusion. We have a way forward. Not a good idea to continue now.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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</span></span><![endif]><b><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Next meetings</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">2 June | 20:00 UTC</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Policy Session at ICANN71 | 16 June 10:30-12:00 UTC</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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</span></span><![endif]><b><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Closure</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Thank you all. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Joke Braeken</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">ccNSO Policy Advisor
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">joke.braeken@icann.org</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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