[council] [Ext] Re: PDP Improvements - status update

Sun Mar 12 20:10:51 UTC 2023

Thanks, Anne. Just to confirm, we are not proposing any updates to the PDP Manual at this stage, just the Initial Report template. As noted, the updates to the charter template were already applied and have been posted here: https://gnso.icann.org/en/council/procedures (scroll down to GNSO Work Product Templates). We’ll take another stab at the proposed updates to the Initial Report template based on the input provided by you and Kurt and will circulate that to the Council for review shortly.

Best regards,

Marika

From: Anne ICANN <anneicanngnso at gmail.com>
Date: Sunday, 12 March 2023 at 14:43
To: "kurt kjpritz.com" <kurt at kjpritz.com>
Cc: "council at gnso.icann.org" <council at gnso.icann.org>, Marika Konings <marika.konings at icann.org>
Subject: [Ext] Re: [council] PDP Improvements - status update

This is helpful.  Just a note that the PDP Manual language and the template should be consistent and should confirm the following:

WG should address impact on existing policies to the extent these have been identified in the Charter and/or identified by the GDS liason during the course of WG deliberations.  Again, the draft language for the PDP Manual itself should be modified to be consistent with this approach and the staff obligation should be included in the PDP Manual so that this is clear.

May we please see all the changes in the PDP Manual language and the Charter template language once again for consideration AFTER the ICANN76 meeting?  (I know staff and Council are all very busy right now.)

Many thanks!
Anne

Thank you,
Anne

Anne Aikman-Scalese
GNSO Councilor
NomCom Non-Voting 2022-2024
anneicanngnso at gmail.com<mailto:anneicanngnso at gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 12, 2023 at 7:13 AM kurt kjpritz.com [kjpritz.com]<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/kjpritz.com__;!!PtGJab4!-o4C3_yeWAaPiLV3CurEdyj1q8wZQJavMA28Rnh1ZVwncmmm--Y5kC8JrC_Ip6ts9u_Q2ZK3AU30_nAQSDczdmx2Pfl9xZMnkw$> <kurt at kjpritz.com<mailto:kurt at kjpritz.com>> wrote:
Hi Anne (and Marika and others):

Thanks for this latest comment. I think Marika’s response corresponds with our thinking.

Taking from Marika’s email:

"(I)t will be the responsibility of the GDS liaison to identify where some recommendations may overlap or impact existing policies, and to raise those in the WG."

The template could say this so the WG doesn’t expect it as its own responsibility.

Next there is:

"how that impact is addressed is … a policy decision and ... guidance from a PDP WG and/or Council will be necessary…”.

So this give the WG the option to cover as much of the issue as feasible and then defer to the Council. That option should be spelled out in the template. (As an aside, “and/or” should be replaced by “or.”)

Finally Marika says:

“...what if it is clear that there is an impact, but no consensus on how this impact should be addressed, who is expected to make that decision? … It does seem that the PDP WG would be best placed to advise the Council on this topic,”

It does seem that the WG would be in position to offer advice to the Council, whether it be a solution, or a process for determining a solution (and the degree of support for that advice or not) but that it’d be for the Council to determine the best policy path for policy issues that are outside the WG’s remit. So we could say that in the template also, affording the WG the opportunity to contribute.

I know we want to economise on template word count but I think it’s be worth adding these additional clarifications to clearly describe the extent of the WG’s duty.

I hope I did not confuse, rather than clarify, things.

Kurt

On 10 Mar 2023, at 5:52 pm, Anne ICANN <anneicanngnso at gmail.com<mailto:anneicanngnso at gmail.com>> wrote:

Hi Marika.  Kurt's language is more accurate.  The PDP Manual should not state that the WG MUST consider whether there is an impact on existing policies because if the WG is supposed to undertake that level of work, the specific policies it is to consider should be identified in the Charter document.  Then it's ok I think for there to be a general provision in the Charter that says if the GDS liaison raises an affected policy, the WG should try to address it.

Some of this discussion turns on what is meant by "an impact on existing policies".  Your question assumes that an existing policy will need to be changed but that is not necessarily the case.  And yes, I think that would have to be addressed at the Council level so the WG could say, for instance, we considered the impact on X policy and believe our recommendation does not require a change to that policy OR we considered the impact on X policy and are recommending as change as follows:  _______________---- OR We considered the impact on X policy and believe this needs to be addressed at the Council level. The last example could also be brought before Council by the GNSO Liaison prior to the Final Report.

I think it should be clear what we are trying to prevent - an obligation on unpaid volunteers to identify all potentially impacted policies. The draft language for the PDP Manual amendment imposes that obligation and needs to be modified.  Kurt makes a very constructive suggestion.   I also think the PDP Manual language should include the obligation for ICANN GNSO policy staff and GDS Liaison to identify any policies that need to be considered by the WG.  Do the amendments to the PDP Manual already specify this?

Thank you,
Anne Aikman-Scalese
GNSO Councilor
NomCom Non-Voting 2022-2024
anneicanngnso at gmail.com<mailto:anneicanngnso at gmail.com>

On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 7:55 AM Marika Konings <marika.konings at icann.org<mailto:marika.konings at icann.org>> wrote:
Thanks, Anne and Kurt.

Anne, the proposed Charter Template was updated with your proposed language and has been posted here: https://gnso.icann.org/en/council/gnso-groupname-charter-yyyymmdd-template-17jan23-en.dotx [gnso.icann.org]<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/gnso.icann.org/en/council/gnso-groupname-charter-yyyymmdd-template-17jan23-en.dotx__;!!PtGJab4!-o4C3_yeWAaPiLV3CurEdyj1q8wZQJavMA28Rnh1ZVwncmmm--Y5kC8JrC_Ip6ts9u_Q2ZK3AU30_nAQSDczdmx2PfnYEYOHxw$>. The proposed language in the Initial Report template is modelled on the language in the charter template.

To confirm, in line with the Charter Template and the GDS Guidelines, it will be the responsibility of the GDS liaison to identify where some recommendations may overlap or impact existing policies, and to raise those in the WG. However, how that impact is addressed is from our perspective a policy decision and as such guidance from a PDP WG and/or Council will be necessary to facilitate implementation. Although this is probably not something that needs to be spelled out in the template, a question that does arise in relation to the language that Kurt has proposed, what if it is clear that there is an impact, but no consensus on how this impact should be addressed, who is expected to make that decision? Does the Final Report go to Council and Council would then make a determination, or would need to spin up a separate effort to provide guidance to the GNSO Council? It does seem that the PDP WG would be best placed to advise the Council on this topic, but if there is a different path that you have in mind, it may be helpful to discuss that?

Best regards,

Marika

From: council <council-bounces at gnso.icann.org<mailto:council-bounces at gnso.icann.org>> on behalf of Anne ICANN via council <council at gnso.icann.org<mailto:council at gnso.icann.org>>
Reply to: Anne ICANN <anneicanngnso at gmail.com<mailto:anneicanngnso at gmail.com>>
Date: Wednesday, 8 March 2023 at 15:39
To: "kurt kjpritz.com [kjpritz.com]<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/kjpritz.com/__;!!PtGJab4!-o4C3_yeWAaPiLV3CurEdyj1q8wZQJavMA28Rnh1ZVwncmmm--Y5kC8JrC_Ip6ts9u_Q2ZK3AU30_nAQSDczdmx2Pfnezlqjbg$>" <kurt at kjpritz.com<mailto:kurt at kjpritz.com>>
Cc: "council at gnso.icann.org<mailto:council at gnso.icann.org>" <council at gnso.icann.org<mailto:council at gnso.icann.org>>
Subject: Re: [council] PDP Improvements - status update

I agree with Kurt and had made changes to the WG Charter template that addressed this very same issue.   Marika has those changes and acknowledged them in the SPS meeting in LA, indicating they would be made since no one on Council had objected.

Will staff please refer to the comments I made on the language in the proposed Charter template in order to modify this PDP language along the lines that Kurt has suggested?  That language included an obligation on the part of staff to raise issues both at the Charter stage and ongoing for  the  GDS staff liaison to raise those issues that may become apparent during the WG deliberations.

An "umbrella" principle here is that staff should be better versed on existing ICANN policies than any volunteer Working Group Chair or member.  In addition, staff is compensated to perform this work whereas volunteers are not.  Agree with Kurt this shifts way too much responsibility to WG members.

Thank you,
Anne

Anne Aikman-Scalese
GNSO Councilor
NomCom Non-Voting 2022-2024
anneicanngnso at gmail.com<mailto:anneicanngnso at gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 7, 2023 at 11:19 PM kurt kjpritz.com [kjpritz.com]<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/kjpritz.com__;!!PtGJab4!7tRwAEmDsoHEZV8dflmqo-_56eTXBDBELT7NjSqWI-meInm5u5atBjihmNwh1KHafuNeJWGxztpzrp6uPxYnMm4n5h5dWg$> via council <council at gnso.icann.org<mailto:council at gnso.icann.org>> wrote:
Hi All:

With regard to the recommended change to the PDP Charter template:

2.5 Impact on Existing Consensus Policies
If the WG concludes with any recommendations, the WG must consider any potential impact of these recommendations on existing consensus policies. If an impact is identified, the WG is expected to be explicit in this section about which consensus policies are impacted and how this impact is expected to be addressed, to facilitate the subsequent implementation process.

I am not for the wording and (I think) the intended spirit of this amendment:

  *   It could markedly increase the time and complexity of PDPs at a time we are trying to streamline them,
  *   It requires expertise that the PDP team is unlikely to have.

My personal experience is from the Registration Data EPDP. There, the recommendations recognised that the Transfer Policy was rendered ineffective (it had been rendered ineffective for some time), and raised the question as to whether the Thick Whois Policy had been overturned. In the former case, the EPDP team did not have the necessary technical understanding of transfer requirements (and the Transfer Policy PDP is still at it, years later), and in the latter, it is not surprising that the EPDP team did not have the political will or consensus to make a call on the Thick Whois Policy. (I know there are nuances to these arguments, but I want to keep this short.)

If the new section 2.5 means some sort of lighter weight consideration, that is not clear. If it means that an allowable response is, “the PDP recognises this impact and expect the Council to address it," then it should explicitly allow that. In this lighter weight case though, I don’t see the value-add, as that already occurs.

I’d be something along the lines of:

2.5 Impact on Existing Consensus Policies
If the WG concludes with any recommendations, the WG must state whether it considered whether there is a potential impact of these recommendations on existing consensus policies. If an impact is identified, the WG should identify the Policies affected and whether there is consensus on how the impact is expected to be addressed.

That way, the Council has a heads-up without imposing additional burdens on the PDP.

I understand that some of my comments might be missing the intent of the new requirement. It is intended to start a discussion that might lead to a more specific, constructive outcome.

Regards,

Kurt

On 23 Feb 2023, at 2:07 am, Marika Konings via council <council at gnso.icann.org<mailto:council at gnso.icann.org>> wrote:

Dear All,

Please note that an updated version of the PDP Improvements Tracker has been posted on the dedicated wiki page (seehttps://community.icann.org/x/e4OLD) to reflect the current status of the different improvements. You’ll note that a couple of items have been completed and there is a proposed next step for improvement #3 for Council consideration (“Build meeting between ICANN Board and GNSO Council to present PDP Final Report into the project plan for ongoing PDPs so that a meeting between ICANN Board and Council can be scheduled well ahead of time”).

In relation to improvement #5, please find attached the proposed updates to the Initial Report template to address any direct or indirect implications on existing Consensus Policies, in line with the recent updates to the Charter Template (see redline on page 10). Please note that although the proposed next step identified the Final Report template as needing to be updated, we’ve realized that there is no Final Report template but it is the Initial Report template that is updated to become the Final Report. If you have any comments or concerns about this update, please share this with the Council mailing list by 24 March. If there are no comments / concerns received by that date, we’ll go ahead and post this updated version with the other GNSO Work Product templates (see  https://gnso.icann.org/en/council/procedures [gnso.icann.org]<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/gnso.icann.org/en/council/procedures__;!!PtGJab4!7tRwAEmDsoHEZV8dflmqo-_56eTXBDBELT7NjSqWI-meInm5u5atBjihmNwh1KHafuNeJWGxztpzrp6uPxYnMm58BYBcPw$>).

Best regards,

Marika
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