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Hi Anne (and Marika and others):
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<div class="">Thanks for this latest comment. I think Marika’s response corresponds with our thinking. </div>
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<div class="">Taking from Marika’s email:</div>
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<div class="">"(I)t will be the responsibility of the GDS liaison to identify where some recommendations may overlap or impact existing policies, and to raise those in the WG." </div>
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<div class="">The template could say this so the WG doesn’t expect it as its own responsibility.</div>
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<div class="">Next there is: </div>
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<div class="">"how that impact is addressed is … a policy decision and ... guidance from a PDP WG
<b class="">and/or</b> Council will be necessary…”. </div>
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So this give the WG the option to cover as much of the issue as feasible and then defer to the Council. That option should be spelled out in the template. (As an aside, “and/or” should be replaced by “or.”)
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<div class="">Finally Marika says: </div>
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<div class="">“...what if it is clear that there is an impact, but no consensus on how this impact should be addressed, who is expected to make that decision? … It does seem that the PDP WG would be best placed to advise the Council on this topic,”</div>
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<div class="">It <i class="">does </i>seem that the WG would be in position to offer advice to the Council, whether it be a solution, or a process for determining a solution (and the degree of support for that advice or not) but that it’d be for the Council
to determine the best policy path for policy issues that are outside the WG’s remit. So we could say that in the template also, affording the WG the opportunity to contribute. </div>
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<div class="">I know we want to economise on template word count but I think it’s be worth adding these additional clarifications to clearly describe the extent of the WG’s duty.</div>
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<div class="">I hope I did not confuse, rather than clarify, things. </div>
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<div class="">Kurt</div>
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<div class="">On 10 Mar 2023, at 5:52 pm, Anne ICANN <<a href="mailto:anneicanngnso@gmail.com" class="">anneicanngnso@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
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<div dir="ltr" class="">Hi Marika. Kurt's language is more accurate. The PDP Manual should not state that the WG MUST consider whether there is an impact on existing policies because if the WG is supposed to undertake that level of work, the specific policies
it is to consider should be identified in the Charter document. Then it's ok I think for there to be a general provision in the Charter that says if the GDS liaison raises an affected policy, the WG should try to address it.
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<div class="">Some of this discussion turns on what is meant by "an impact on existing policies". Your question assumes that an existing policy will need to be changed but that is not necessarily the case. And yes, I think that would have to be addressed
at the Council level so the WG could say, for instance, we considered the impact on X policy and believe our recommendation does not require a change to that policy OR we considered the impact on X policy and are recommending as change as follows: _______________----
OR We considered the impact on X policy and believe this needs to be addressed at the Council level. The last example could also be brought before Council by the GNSO Liaison prior to the Final Report.</div>
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<div class="">I think it should be clear what we are trying to prevent - an obligation on unpaid volunteers to identify all potentially impacted policies. The draft language for the PDP Manual amendment imposes that obligation and needs to be modified. Kurt
makes a very constructive suggestion. I also think the PDP Manual language should include the obligation for ICANN GNSO policy staff and GDS Liaison to identify any policies that need to be considered by the WG. Do the amendments to the PDP Manual already
specify this?</div>
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<div class="">Thank you,</div>
<div class="">Anne Aikman-Scalese
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<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr" class="">GNSO Councilor
<div class="">NomCom Non-Voting 2022-2024</div>
<div class=""><a href="mailto:anneicanngnso@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">anneicanngnso@gmail.com</a></div>
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<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 7:55 AM Marika Konings <<a href="mailto:marika.konings@icann.org" class="">marika.konings@icann.org</a>> wrote:<br class="">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" class="">Thanks, Anne and Kurt.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" class="">Anne, the proposed Charter Template was updated with your proposed language and has been posted here:
<a href="https://gnso.icann.org/en/council/gnso-groupname-charter-yyyymmdd-template-17jan23-en.dotx" target="_blank" class="">
https://gnso.icann.org/en/council/gnso-groupname-charter-yyyymmdd-template-17jan23-en.dotx</a>. The proposed language in the Initial Report template is modelled on the language in the charter template.
<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" class="">To confirm, in line with the Charter Template and the GDS Guidelines, it will be the responsibility of
</span><span style="background-color: white;" class="">the GDS liaison to identify where some recommendations may overlap or impact existing policies, and to raise those in the WG</span><span lang="EN-US" style="background-color: white;" class="">. However,
how that impact is addressed is from our perspective a policy decision and as such guidance from a PDP WG and/or Council will be necessary to facilitate implementation. Although this is probably not something that needs to be spelled out in the template, a
question that does arise in relation to the language that Kurt has proposed, what if it is clear that there is an impact, but no consensus on how this impact should be addressed, who is expected to make that decision? Does the Final Report go to Council and
Council would then make a determination, or would need to spin up a separate effort to provide guidance to the GNSO Council? It does seem that the PDP WG would be best placed to advise the Council on this topic, but if there is a different path that you have
in mind, it may be helpful to discuss that?<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="background-color: white;" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="background-color: white;" class="">Best regards,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="background-color: white;" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="background-color: white;" class="">Marika </span><span lang="EN-US" class=""><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt;" class="">From: </span>
</b><span style="font-size: 12pt;" class="">council <<a href="mailto:council-bounces@gnso.icann.org" target="_blank" class="">council-bounces@gnso.icann.org</a>> on behalf of Anne ICANN via council <<a href="mailto:council@gnso.icann.org" target="_blank" class="">council@gnso.icann.org</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Reply to: </b>Anne ICANN <<a href="mailto:anneicanngnso@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">anneicanngnso@gmail.com</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Date: </b>Wednesday, 8 March 2023 at 15:39<br class="">
<b class="">To: </b>"kurt <a href="http://kjpritz.com/" target="_blank" class="">
kjpritz.com</a>" <<a href="mailto:kurt@kjpritz.com" target="_blank" class="">kurt@kjpritz.com</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Cc: </b>"<a href="mailto:council@gnso.icann.org" target="_blank" class="">council@gnso.icann.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:council@gnso.icann.org" target="_blank" class="">council@gnso.icann.org</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Subject: </b>Re: [council] PDP Improvements - status update<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I agree with Kurt and had made changes to the WG Charter template that addressed this very same issue. Marika has those changes and acknowledged them in the SPS meeting in LA, indicating they would be made since no one on Council had
objected. <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Will staff please refer to the comments I made on the language in the proposed Charter template in order to modify this PDP language along the lines that Kurt has suggested? That language included an obligation on the part of staff to
raise issues both at the Charter stage and ongoing for the GDS staff liaison to raise those issues that may become apparent during the WG deliberations. <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">An "umbrella" principle here is that staff should be better versed on existing ICANN policies than any volunteer Working Group Chair or member. In addition, staff is compensated to perform this work whereas volunteers are not. Agree with
Kurt this shifts way too much responsibility to WG members.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Thank you,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Anne<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Anne Aikman-Scalese<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">GNSO Councilor <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">NomCom Non-Voting 2022-2024<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:anneicanngnso@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">anneicanngnso@gmail.com</a><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Mar 7, 2023 at 11:19 PM kurt <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/kjpritz.com__;!!PtGJab4!7tRwAEmDsoHEZV8dflmqo-_56eTXBDBELT7NjSqWI-meInm5u5atBjihmNwh1KHafuNeJWGxztpzrp6uPxYnMm4n5h5dWg$" target="_blank" class="">
kjpritz.com [kjpritz.com]</a> via council <<a href="mailto:council@gnso.icann.org" target="_blank" class="">council@gnso.icann.org</a>> wrote:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi All: <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">With regard to the recommended change to the PDP Charter template: <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">2.5 Impact on Existing Consensus Policies<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">If the WG concludes with any recommendations, the WG must consider any potential impact of these recommendations on existing consensus policies. If an impact is identified, the WG is expected to be explicit in this section about which consensus
policies are impacted and how this impact is expected to be addressed, to facilitate the subsequent implementation process.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I am not for the wording and (I think) the intended spirit of this amendment: <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<ul type="disc" class="">
<li class="MsoNormal">It could markedly increase the time and complexity of PDPs at a time we are trying to streamline them,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></li><li class="MsoNormal">It requires expertise that the PDP team is unlikely to have.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></li></ul>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">My personal experience is from the Registration Data EPDP. There, the recommendations recognised that the Transfer Policy was rendered ineffective (it had been rendered ineffective for some time), and raised the question as to whether the
Thick Whois Policy had been overturned. In the former case, the EPDP team did not have the necessary technical understanding of transfer requirements (and the Transfer Policy PDP is still at it, years later), and in the latter, it is not surprising that the
EPDP team did not have the political will or consensus to make a call on the Thick Whois Policy. (I know there are nuances to these arguments, but I want to keep this short.)<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">If the new section 2.5 means some sort of lighter weight consideration, that is not clear. If it means that an allowable response is, “the PDP recognises this impact and expect the Council to address it," then it should explicitly allow
that. In this lighter weight case though, I don’t see the value-add, as that already occurs. <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I’d be something along the lines of: <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">2.5 Impact on Existing Consensus Policies<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">If the WG concludes with any recommendations, the WG must state whether it considered whether there is a potential impact of these recommendations on existing consensus policies. If an impact is identified, the WG should identify the Policies
affected and whether there is consensus on how the impact is expected to be addressed. <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">That way, the Council has a heads-up without imposing additional burdens on the PDP.
<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I understand that some of my comments might be missing the intent of the new requirement. It is intended to start a discussion that might lead to a more specific, constructive outcome. <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Regards,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Kurt <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
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<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 23 Feb 2023, at 2:07 am, Marika Konings via council <<a href="mailto:council@gnso.icann.org" target="_blank" class="">council@gnso.icann.org</a>> wrote:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" class="">Dear All,</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" class=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" class="">Please note that an updated version of the PDP Improvements Tracker has been posted on the dedicated wiki page (see<a href="https://community.icann.org/x/e4OLD" target="_blank" class=""><span style="color:rgb(5,99,193)" class="">https://community.icann.org/x/e4OLD</span></a>)
to reflect the current status of the different improvements. You’ll note that a couple of items have been completed and there is a proposed next step for improvement #3 for Council consideration (“</span>Build meeting between ICANN Board and GNSO Council to present
PDP Final Report into the project plan for ongoing PDPs so that a meeting between ICANN Board and Council can be scheduled well ahead of time<span lang="EN-US" class="">”)</span>.<span style="font-size:4pt;font-family:Helvetica" class=""><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" class=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" class="">In relation to improvement #5, please find attached the proposed updates to the Initial Report template to address any direct or indirect implications on existing Consensus Policies, in line with the recent updates
to the Charter Template (see redline on page 10). Please note that although the proposed next step identified the Final Report template as needing to be updated, we’ve realized that there is no Final Report template but it is the Initial Report template that
is updated to become the Final Report. If you have any comments or concerns about this update, please share this with the Council mailing list by 24 March. If there are no comments / concerns received by that date, we’ll go ahead and post this updated version
with the other GNSO Work Product templates (see <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/gnso.icann.org/en/council/procedures__;!!PtGJab4!7tRwAEmDsoHEZV8dflmqo-_56eTXBDBELT7NjSqWI-meInm5u5atBjihmNwh1KHafuNeJWGxztpzrp6uPxYnMm58BYBcPw$" target="_blank" class=""><span style="color:rgb(5,99,193)" class="">https://gnso.icann.org/en/council/procedures
[gnso.icann.org]</span></a>).</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" class=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" class="">Best regards,</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" class=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" class="">Marika</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><Revised PDP WG Initial Report Template - 23 February 2023.docx><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica" class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">
council mailing list<br class="">
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<p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br class="">
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