<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:#0b5394">Sigh.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:#0b5394"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:#0b5394">Where did domainers come into this? That indeed seemed like a needless cheap shot.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:#0b5394"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:#0b5394">As I said before, our role here is to approach this from the PoV of end-users and potential denial of access to what may be controversial content. I really don't care about the effects on registrants since they have constituencies within ICANN that are fully capable of defending their own interests.<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:#0b5394"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:#0b5394">There is every possibility that these changes are in line with other agreements, or that they simply acknowledge authority that already exists.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:#0b5394">What is unclear to me is whether a government in country A can issue a takedown order for a domain owned in country B that may be breaking the law in A but not B.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:#0b5394">(for example, as calling a war a "war" outside Russia)<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:#0b5394">As a fledgling YouTube creator I am very aware of the abuse of well-meaning takedown regulations there, so I am alerted when I see allegations of new takedown regulations anywhere.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:#0b5394"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:#0b5394">Maybe it is indeed nothing, but I am uninclined to summarily dismiss it as Jonathan has without a review from those who can read the changes with a keener eye than my own.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:#0b5394">
I am delighted to see Mike on the case and now have increased confidence that the issue will receive the necessary attention.<br></div><div><br></div><div><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)">- Evan</span></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Apr 20, 2023 at 4:20 PM Zak Muscovitch via CPWG <<a href="mailto:cpwg@icann.org">cpwg@icann.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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<div dir="ltr">Jonathan, I don’t appreciate your sentiment of “hating domainers”. It’s not conducive to civil discussion amongst stakeholders, and in any event it is an overly broad generalization without justification. Moreover, attributing Evan's concern
to being "spun up by domainers" is another unjustified generalization. </div>
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<div dir="ltr">Zak Muscovitch</div>
<div dir="ltr">General Counsel, ICA</div>
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<div id="m_839396152767496679divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif"><b>From:</b> CPWG <<a href="mailto:cpwg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">cpwg-bounces@icann.org</a>> on behalf of Jonathan Zuck via CPWG <<a href="mailto:cpwg@icann.org" target="_blank">cpwg@icann.org</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 20, 2023 4:12 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> mike <a href="http://palage.com" target="_blank">palage.com</a> <<a href="mailto:mike@palage.com" target="_blank">mike@palage.com</a>>; Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond <<a href="mailto:ocl@gih.com" target="_blank">ocl@gih.com</a>>; Evan Leibovitch <<a href="mailto:evan@telly.org" target="_blank">evan@telly.org</a>>; CPWG <<a href="mailto:cpwg@icann.org" target="_blank">cpwg@icann.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [CPWG] Something of actual importance to end-users
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<div dir="auto">Yeah, this is much ado about nothing. It's not like some contract can give a government permission to seize a domain. Sigh. This is just so ICANN can't come after Verisign ( and PIR etc) for accommodating a court order.</div>
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<div dir="auto">For someone who hates the domainers, even more than me, Evan is sure spun up by them!</div>
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<div id="m_839396152767496679ms-outlook-mobile-signature" dir="auto"><b>Jonathan Zuck</b>
<div dir="auto"><i>Director</i>, Future of Work Project</div>
<div dir="auto">Innovators Network Foundation</div>
<div dir="auto"><a href="http://www.InnovatorsNetwork.org" target="_blank">www.InnovatorsNetwork.org</a></div>
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<div id="m_839396152767496679divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> CPWG <<a href="mailto:cpwg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">cpwg-bounces@icann.org</a>> on behalf of mike <a href="http://palage.com" target="_blank">palage.com</a> via CPWG <<a href="mailto:cpwg@icann.org" target="_blank">cpwg@icann.org</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 20, 2023 3:56:38 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond <<a href="mailto:ocl@gih.com" target="_blank">ocl@gih.com</a>>; Evan Leibovitch <<a href="mailto:evan@telly.org" target="_blank">evan@telly.org</a>>; CPWG <<a href="mailto:cpwg@icann.org" target="_blank">cpwg@icann.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [CPWG] Something of actual importance to end-users</font>
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<p style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
Hello Olivier,</p>
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</p>
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Can you provide a public reference to the thread or email list? I am a sucker for subscribing to a good mailing list.</p>
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That being said I would agree with John’s statement. As someone who has consulted with many registry operators over the last two decades, the language in the .COM and the now proposed .NET registry agreement is not inconsistent with standards provisions across
the industry.</p>
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</p>
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Sadly, ICANN only requires Verisign to post its Registry/Registrar agreements. However, I was able to quickly find this legal provision from EURid in connection with .EU registrations, see
<a href="https://eurid.eu/d/7556497/Terms_and_Conditions_EN.pdf" target="_blank">https://eurid.eu/d/7556497/Terms_and_Conditions_EN.pdf</a></p>
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</p>
<p style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
Section 6.4 - <span style="background:yellow">The Registry shall be entitled to immediately suspend or cancel the Domain</span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style="background:yellow">Name when the Registrant is in breach of the Rules.</span></p>
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</p>
<p style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
Section 3. OBLIGATIONS OF THE REGISTRANT</p>
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</p>
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Throughout the Term, the Registrant has the following obligations:</p>
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1. As referred to in the Registration Policy, to keep its contact information accurate, complete, and up-to-date, both (i) with the Registrar with whom the Registrant has entered into an Agreement and (ii) with the Registry (via the Registrar). Moreover, the
Registrant represents and warrants that any email address communicated to the Registry shall be a functioning e-mail</p>
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address;</p>
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2. To use the Domain Name in such a way that does not violate any third-party rights, applicable laws, or regulations, including discrimination on the basis of race, language, sex, religion, or political view;</p>
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3. Not to use the Domain Name (i) in bad faith or (ii) for <span style="background:yellow">
any unlawful purpose</span>.</p>
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</p>
<p style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
Section 4. REPRESENTATIONS AND WARRANTIES OF THE REGISTRANT</p>
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</p>
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The Registrant represents and warrants that:</p>
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</p>
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1. it meets the Eligibility Criteria, and it shall inform the Registry when it ceases to meet such conditions via its Registrar;</p>
<p style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
2. all information provided to the Registry during the Domain Name registration process is true, complete, and accurate;</p>
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3. the Domain Name registration is made in good faith, <span style="background:yellow">
for a lawful purpose</span>, and does not infringe the rights of any third party;</p>
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4. the Domain Name is not contrary to public policy or morality (e.g. is not obscene or offensive), and is not unlawful;</p>
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5. throughout the Term, it shall abide by these Terms and Conditions and any and all applicable Rules.</p>
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</p>
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Therefore while the Verisign lawyers were a bit verbose our friends at EURid were much more succinct.
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Net Net – I personally am not losing any sleep over the proposed mark-up to the RRA. That being said there are A LOT of other provisions in the existing/proposed .NET agreement that are giving me angst, so please tune in next Wednesday when Bill and I share
our initial assessment and concerns. </p>
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</p>
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Best regards,</p>
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</p>
<p style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
Michael</p>
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<b>From:</b> CPWG <<a href="mailto:cpwg-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">cpwg-bounces@icann.org</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond via CPWG<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 20, 2023 3:28 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Evan Leibovitch <<a href="mailto:evan@telly.org" target="_blank">evan@telly.org</a>>; CPWG <<a href="mailto:cpwg@icann.org" target="_blank">cpwg@icann.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [CPWG] Something of actual importance to end-users</p>
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Forgot the reference:<br>
<a href="https://itp.cdn.icann.org/en/files/registry-agreements/com/com-amend-3-pdf-27mar20-en.pdf" target="_blank">https://itp.cdn.icann.org/en/files/registry-agreements/com/com-amend-3-pdf-27mar20-en.pdf</a><br>
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On 20/04/2023 20:26, Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond wrote:</p>
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Worth noting: John Levine points out on another mailing list that the changes are the same as those already integrated in the .COM Registry Agreement 3 years ago and that did not cause as many ripples back then.<br>
<br>
He also mentions that governments seize gTLD domains all the time when they get a suitable
<br>
court order. But of course I guess this is all in the details.<br>
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Kindest regards,<br>
<br>
Olivier<br>
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On 20/04/2023 17:12, Evan Leibovitch via CPWG wrote:</p>
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<span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)"><a href="https://freespeech.com/2023/04/19/red-alert-icann-and-verisign-proposal-would-allow-any-government-in-the-world-to-seize-domain-names/" target="_blank">https://freespeech.com/2023/04/19/red-alert-icann-and-verisign-proposal-would-allow-any-government-in-the-world-to-seize-domain-names/</a></span></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)"> </span></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)">Let's briefly put aside the boasting about ALAC's incremental involvement in the trivial agendas set by ICANN's vested interests. Here's a real example of an issue that can negatively affect end-users.
The aims of the proposed modification may be laudable, but there's too much room for arbitrariness and too much potential to curb political speech unwanted by a government.</span></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)"> </span></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)">BTW ... Why was this not already flagged by ALAC as cause for concern? Why did I have to find out about this in the media rather than from the inside. Was ALAC intending to ignore it?</span></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)"> </span></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)">This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. ALAC is obsessed with the trivial and the self-absorbed, but asleep during the issues that actually affect the constituency we're supposed to serve.</span></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)"> </span></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)">Does ALAC have what it takes to fight for the public interest on something that actually matters?</span></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)">Is it capable of balancing the various intertwining issues? If the CPWG meets on this issue I'll be there.</span></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:rgb(11,83,148)"><br clear="all">
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<p style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
Evan Leibovitch, <span style="font-size:9.5pt">Toronto Canada</span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style="font-size:9.5pt">@evanleibovitch / @el56</span></p>
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<pre style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">_______________________________________________</pre>
<pre style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">CPWG mailing list</pre>
<pre style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""><a href="mailto:CPWG@icann.org" target="_blank">CPWG@icann.org</a></pre>
<pre style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""><a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cpwg" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cpwg</a></pre>
<pre style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""> </pre>
<pre style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">_______________________________________________</pre>
<pre style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (<a href="https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy" target="_blank">https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy</a>) and the website Terms of Service (<a href="https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos" target="_blank">https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos</a>). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.</pre>
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<pre style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">-- </pre>
<pre style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, PhD</pre>
<pre style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""><a href="http://www.gih.com/ocl.html" target="_blank">http://www.gih.com/ocl.html</a></pre>
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_______________________________________________<br>
CPWG mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:CPWG@icann.org" target="_blank">CPWG@icann.org</a><br>
<a href="https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cpwg" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cpwg</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (<a href="https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy</a>) and the website Terms of Service (<a href="https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos</a>). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.</blockquote></div>