[CWG-Stewardship] drift in v5
cgomes at verisign.com
Fri Jun 12 18:45:58 UTC 2015
As you can see by comments below I disagree with some of your conclusions.
From: cwg-stewardship-bounces at icann.org [mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Seun Ojedeji
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 2:31 PM
To: Greg Shatan
Cc: Avri Doria; cwg-stewardship at icann.org
Subject: Re: [CWG-Stewardship] drift in v5
On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 7:07 PM, Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc at gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc at gmail.com>> wrote:
Your point on administrative functions is absolutely consistent with my understanding. We have discussed having some form of "services agreement" whereby ICANN would provide various "back-office" and enterprise-wide services (such as HR, etc.) to PTI.
Well we have discussed a lot Greg and its what currently exist in our proposal that matters. I havn't seen the section of our proposal that mean what you have stated above.
[Chuck Gomes] I don’t think it is our task to define how ICANN will manage its own affiliate except as specifically related to performance of the IANA services. Regarding the affiliate model, I have assume that it would allow for cost efficiencies with regard to support services such as human resources, finance, etc., but I don’t think our charter requires us to define how those would occur. Normally the parent company would do that. I do think that as we continue to refine the PTI budget that these kind of issues will surface and will be better defined by ICANN and reviewed by the CWG as we get closer to implementation.
It has not been the view of the CWG that PTI needs to be a completely self-sufficient, hermetically sealed entity. That would be economic folly.
Interesting view Greg, but we seem to have built our proposal on that except for where it has to do with cost which we ofcourse push back to the big guy. (ref: transfer of the IANA trademark et all)
[Chuck Gomes] I disagree with this assumption. I don’t think our proposal assumes that PTI would be self-sufficient in all areas. Where does our proposal indicate that? I agree with you that PTI must be self-sufficient in performing the IANA services but it doesn’t follow from that that PTI needs to provide its own administrative, financial and personnel services. That’s really in ICANN’s court to decide and I would like to think that they would do it in the most cost-efficient and effective manner.
You don't need to have a full-time HR person (much less, an HR staff) for 12 or so people, for example.
Well maybe not, i guess this will depend on the scope of PTI Manager/Board over the PTI employees.
On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 1:57 PM, Avri Doria <avri at acm.org<mailto:avri at acm.org>> wrote:
I think of the ICANN IANA function staff as becoming PTI staff, but I
do not think you need to move all of the administrative functions that
support that staff as they can be 'outsourced' (or rather remain) with
ICANN for as long as PTI is an affiliate. Some, on the other hand may
be internalized to PTI at some future point.
But yes, I thought we were talking about transferring the assets that
pertain to the IFO to the PTI.
On 11-Jun-15 22:15, Seun Ojedeji wrote:
> Apart from iana.org<http://iana.org> <http://iana.org>, there is IANA trademark itself
> and based on your response I presume you support a transfer of that as
> well. So we may also simply refer to the new IANA staff as PTI staff
> and not ICANN staff since they are part of the transfer and since we
> (the CWG) want a wholely standalone/separated IFO. That would also
> mean more department will need to spring up within PTI, like the HR
> for instance.
> I hope we are thinking about all these complications, or maybe it's
> not as complicated as i think. Perhaps we can just hope that the other
> 2 communities will accept and move on.
> sent from Google nexus 4
> kindly excuse brevity and typos.
> On 11 Jun 2015 23:26, "Avri Doria" <avri at acm.org<mailto:avri at acm.org>
> <mailto:avri at acm.org<mailto:avri at acm.org>>> wrote:
> I tend to look at it much more simply.
> ICANN has the domain name now.
> it is one of the IANA assets.
> The Name and Numbers communities have chosen to remain ICANN's
> There is no reason to transfer ICANN/IANA assets to one of ICANN's
> If ICANN is transferring all of the IANA assets to PTI, then the
> name registrations should go with it.
> On 11-Jun-15 12:53, Milton L Mueller wrote:
> > I see that neither Alan nor Greg has addressed the separability
> > I will take that as a concession that it cannot be answered.
> There is,
> > as I pointed out twice, a contradiction between ICANN owning the
> > and the ability to move the IFO. That is true whether or not ICANN
> > offers a royalty-free license – that still puts ICANN in control of
> > its use rather than the technical community and ICANN/PTI is an IFO.
> > And that is central to the controversy. Both the IETF and the CRISP
> > team wanted the marks separate from ICANN because ICANN is an
> IFO and
> > they did not want a specific IFO to own those marks.
> > With respect to that point, John Poole, I am afraid your review
> of the
> > trademark record is not relevant to this controversy. Just to
> fill in
> > your historical record a bit more, USC Information Sciences
> > was the institutional home of Jon Postel, who was working on
> behalf of
> > the IETF and was one of the developers of both the IP protocol
> and the
> > numbers and names registry. So if you want to make that history
> > relevant, you would have to note that his position was far closer to
> > that of the current IETF than to ICANN. Indeed, the All the
> > records reveals is something that we already know and which has no
> > bearing on what we are doing now: which is, that when ICANN was
> > created, it was assumed that Postel would move to become part of it,
> > and that ICANN would “be” the IANA. But as I have explained
> > that did not happen; ICANN became the DNS policy making entity
> and the
> > IANA was a small appendage to it. We are in a very different
> > now and the TM arrangements need to adjust.
> > I am amused by the fact that Greg says we can avoid this issue
> > our remit does not extend to the other operational communities – but
> > then insists on doing something that directly contradicts the
> > proposals of the other operational communities.
> > I am wondering what really is driving this concept because it is
> > certainly not consensus within this CWG, it is not the merits of the
> > arguments, it is not consistency with the general principles we
> > on.
> > *From:*john at expri.com<mailto:john at expri.com> <mailto:john at expri.com<mailto:john at expri.com>>
> [mailto:john at expri.com<mailto:john at expri.com> <mailto:john at expri.com<mailto:john at expri.com>>] *On Behalf Of
> *John Poole
> > *Sent:* Thursday, June 11, 2015 12:17 AM
> > *To:* cwg-stewardship at icann.org<mailto:cwg-stewardship at icann.org> <mailto:cwg-stewardship at icann.org<mailto:cwg-stewardship at icann.org>>
> > *Cc:* Alan Greenberg; Greg Shatan; Andrew Sullivan; Milton L Mueller
> > *Subject:* Re: [CWG-Stewardship] drift in v5
> > CWG, Alan, Greg, Andrew, Milton:
> > Reference to the historical record may also be helpful to
> resolve this
> > issue (IANA marks):
> > USC/ICANN TRANSITION AGREEMENT (USC is the University of Southern
> > which states in 2.1:
> > 2. INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY.
> > 2.1 Service Mark and Copyright Assignment. USC hereby assigns and
> > transfers without warranty unto ICANN USC's entire right, title and
> > interest in and to the following:
> > (a) the "Internet Assigned Numbers Authority" service mark pending
> > registration, the "Internet Assigned Numbers Authority" common law
> > service mark, the "IANA" service mark pending registration, the
> > common law service mark, and the common law service mark in the IANA
> > logo shown in Exhibit "A" attached hereto (collectively, the
> > Marks"), and the goodwill associated with the Service Marks; and
> > (b) the copyright to, and all other exclusive rights to reproduce,
> > distribute, prepare derivative works based on, display, and
> > use, the IANA logo shown in Exhibit "A" attached hereto, pursuant to
> > the terms and conditions of that certain Service Mark and Copyright
> > Assignment attached hereto as Exhibit "B" (the "Service Mark and
> > Copyright Assignment")."
> > The University of Southern California – ICANN Transition
> Agreement is
> > specifically referred to and approved by the United States
> > in the original IANA Contract (February 9, 2000)
> > http://www.ntia.doc.gov/files/ntia/publications/ianacontract.pdf
> > Nowhere in the historical record do I find any other entity
> holding or
> > claiming Common Law or Registration rights to the IANA marks
> prior to
> > the University of Southern California (USC), although RFC 1174 says
> > that "Throughout its entire history, the Internet system has
> > a central Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA)..."
> > The first reference to the name "IANA" or “Internet Assigned Numbers
> > Authority” in the RFC series is in RFC 1060:
> > RFC 1060 --March 1990:
> > “… current information can be obtained from the Internet Assigned
> > Numbers Authority (IANA). If you are developing a protocol or
> > application that will require the use of a link, socket, port,
> > protocol, etc., please contact the IANA to receive a number
> > Joyce K. Reynolds
> > Internet Assigned Numbers Authority
> > USC - Information Sciences Institute
> > 4676 Admiralty Way
> > Marina del Rey, California 90292-6695 …”
> > US Trademark Registration for IANA shows an original “Filing Date of
> > March 21, 1997” by “Owner (REGISTRANT) University of Southern
> > California NON-PROFIT CORPORATION CALIFORNIA University Park,
> ADM 352
> > Los Angeles CALIFORNIA 900895013,” subsequently assigned by USC
> > (“entire interest”) to ICANN
> > ICANN subsequently filed its own separate registrations of the IANA
> > marks in 2001 and 2007.
> > Domain name iana.org<http://iana.org> <http://iana.org> <http://iana.org> has a
> "created date" of
> > 1995-06-05 according to the WHOIS, current registrant is ICANN.
> > The historical record, in my view, supports the position that these
> > property rights should remain with ICANN which can then license
> > use by its affiliate PTI, or any other third party.
> > Best regards,
> > John Poole
> > On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 10:29 PM, Alan Greenberg
> > <alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca<mailto:alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca> <mailto:alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca<mailto:alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca>>
> <mailto:alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca<mailto:alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca>
> <mailto:alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca<mailto:alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca>>>> wrote:
> > Greg, not quite.
> > You are thinking about this as a TM attorney. There are also
> > technical issues. Currently iana.org<http://iana.org> <http://iana.org>
> <http://iana.org> has uses
> > within all three communities and it is simple to do since it ia
> > all run out of the current IANA. If there were to be a split at
> > some point, it is not just a matter of granting the right to use
> > the TM, but creating the mechanics to allow the domain name
> to be
> > transparently used by all three entities. And if one of the
> > has left because they no longer have faith in the ability of the
> > then-current IANA to do things correctly, that could be
> > But the problems will be there regardless of where the
> iana.org<http://iana.org> <http://iana.org>
> > <http://iana.org> name resolves to if there is a split. The best
> > we can do is try to cover it with contractual assurances.
> > And as was pointed out ion the IETF list when this was first
> > discussed. Although no one wants to stop using iana.org<http://iana.org>
> > <http://iana.org>, and it would probably more disruptive for the
> > IETF than others (my recollection is that the name is built into
> > code), we would survive.
> > Alan
> > At 10/06/2015 11:15 PM, Greg Shatan wrote:
> > Alan,
> > You took the words out of my mouth. A clause in the
> > agreements between ICANN and the other two communities
> > require ICANN to grant a worldwide royalty-free license
> to use
> > the trademarks. This is a simple fix. If we want to get
> > there can be a contingent license that automatically springs
> > into place when the customer separates.
> > I also agree with your point on defense/enforcement.
> > Greg
> > On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 11:03 PM, Alan Greenberg
> > <alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca<mailto:alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca>
> <mailto:alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca<mailto:alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca>> <mailto:alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca<mailto:alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca>
> <mailto:alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca<mailto:alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca>>> >
> > wrote:
> > I refrained from weighing in when this was first
> discussed and
> > in this iteration. But I will now. I think that whatever the
> > solution, there must be some principle adhered to:
> > 1. The TM must be owned by an entity that is prepared to
> > defend it if necessary.
> > 2. Whoever owns it must enter into an agreement with all
> > users of it (or the other two if the owner is one of the
> > users) so that if that user chooses to move withdraw
> from the
> > IFO used by the others, the TM owner will grant it all
> > necessary rights and privileges to continue using the TM
> > no user disruption.
> > In my opinion, it makes sense for the owner to be ICANN for
> > the immediate future, because it will, either directly or
> > through PTI, have agreements with the RIRs and the IETF and
> > those agreements are reasonable places in which to embody
> > principle 2. And ICANN has the funding and legal
> resources to
> > defend the TM if necessary.
> > But there are certainly other solutions that could also
> > satisfy both principles...
> > _______________________________________________
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The key to understanding is humility - my view !
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