[Gdd-gnso-ppsai-impl] Notes, action items from today's PP IRT meeting--feedback requested by 27 April
Roman, Peter (CRM)
Peter.Roman at usdoj.gov
Tue May 8 20:41:53 UTC 2018
We agree to disagree. The PSWG maintains that your description of the burden on the Provider is inaccurate given modern communication methods. And, even if it wasn’t, the value of the service dramatically outweighs the burden.
If Volker’s position reflects the position of the Providers, I propose that we put it to the community, including: the PSWG position, immediate response; the Provider position, one business day that could be as long as a week to respond to an emergency request at all; and the proposed compromise language, a 24 hour window to respond in some manner.
Thanks,
Peter Roman
Senior Counsel
Computer Crime & Intellectual Property Section
Criminal Division
Department of Justice
1301 New York Ave., NW
Washington, DC 20530
(202) 305-1323
peter.roman at usdoj.gov<mailto:peter.roman at usdoj.gov>
From: Gdd-gnso-ppsai-impl [mailto:gdd-gnso-ppsai-impl-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann
Sent: Thursday, May 3, 2018 9:28 AM
To: gdd-gnso-ppsai-impl at icann.org
Subject: Re: [Gdd-gnso-ppsai-impl] Notes, action items from today's PP IRT meeting--feedback requested by 27 April
While that may be accurate, it does not change the fact that you expect some poor sap to sit on a chair on a week-end or holiday, or at least refrain from any activity that may result in a longer unavailability on the odd one-in-a-million chance that someone from a LEA in their jurisdiction may immediately need some information only they can provide. And it is not like a PPS is providing a basic utility where you would have to have someone on call already.
While what you are asking is certainly a "nice-to-have", it is unreasonable and commercially unfeasible to expect that kind of readiness from what is essentially a low margin, low effort service. Unless your goal is pushing PPS providers out of business or underground...
Again: Without this accreditation, you have nothing. No obligation to respond, ever! Now you get a business day turnaround. Wouldn't you agree that this is the better option of the two?
ICANN works on consensus. Without consensus, you have nothing. By asking for the unreasonable, you risk that consensus that exists on most other issues. Would you rather have nothing?
Volker Greimann
Am 03.05.2018 um 15:06 schrieb Roman, Peter (CRM):
Actually, the worst case scenario isn’t 72 hours, because every time there is a national holiday it becomes 96 hours. And for certain holidays, such as Shanghai National Day (which is a week long despite being called a day), Mardi Gras, etc. it can be as long as 168 hours.
Peter Roman
Senior Counsel
Computer Crime & Intellectual Property Section
Criminal Division
U.S. Department of Justice
1301 New York Ave.<x-apple-data-detectors://7>, NW
Washington, DC 20530
(202) 305-1323
peter.roman at usdoj.gov<mailto:peter.roman at usdoj.gov>
On May 2, 2018, at 5:17 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>> wrote:
Hi Peter,
I understand you points, but at this stage, you have nothing. Without the accreditation program, there is no urgency requirement for any providers except that laid down in the local laws they are subject to. We are offering you a very reasonable turn-around time of one business day, which is a lot more than what you have right now. Something is better than nothing.
Your 72 hours are also a worst case scenario. Five days out of seven, you will have a response in less than 24 hours.
And this is just a minimum guarantee. Providers that can respond more quickly likely will do so. We just do not want a situation where we overpromise something that cannot be reasonably delivered in every case. Even one business day may be difficult for some providers.
If your choice were between our reasonable offer and the status quo, what would you choose?
Volker
Am 01.05.2018 um 21:19 schrieb Roman, Peter (CRM):
I have to admit that I do not see where this accusation of unwillingness to compromise is remotely accurate.
The PSWG would like an immediate response. The providers would like to delay the response for up to 72 hours. 24 hours is a reasonable compromise. And it is a compromise that other stakeholders in other agreements have also reached and seem comfortable with. 72 hours vs. 1 or 2 is an enormous difference. And 24 hours vs. 1 or 2 hours is also an enormous difference, but we are willing to take 24 hours in the hopes of reaching an agreement.
Furthermore, my understanding when I joined this IRT was that 24 hours was already the agreed upon compromise. Then, my understanding when we met in the small group session in Puerto Rico was that the providers were willing to work with 24 hours provided that we could give you all sufficient comfort with some of the surrounding issues (like when saying no was acceptable). We have, by and large, accepted all of the providers’ suggestions for the issues surrounding the emergency disclosure request except where they completely undercut the rest of the emergency disclosure language. And yet, the providers continue to push for a 72 hour window AND all of the other concessions.
The PSWG would be willing to compromise on a 24 hour response time, with the other language that the providers require to be comfortable. We are not willing to take 72 hours, but then you are not willing to take 2 hours, so we are at an impasse. This is not because the PSWG does not want to compromise, but because the providers do not.
Peter Roman
Senior Counsel
Computer Crime & Intellectual Property Section
Criminal Division
Department of Justice
1301 New York Ave., NW
Washington, DC 20530
(202) 305-1323
peter.roman at usdoj.gov<mailto:peter.roman at usdoj.gov>
From: Gdd-gnso-ppsai-impl [mailto:gdd-gnso-ppsai-impl-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2018 5:13 AM
To: gdd-gnso-ppsai-impl at icann.org<mailto:gdd-gnso-ppsai-impl at icann.org>
Subject: Re: [Gdd-gnso-ppsai-impl] Notes, action items from today's PP IRT meeting--feedback requested by 27 April
If you are not willing to compromise, we may get nowhere. If the line has to be drawn between this is what is reasonably possible for us to deliver (meaning everything beyond that is either unreasonable or impossible) and this is what we (meaning the PSWG) want because it is an artificial number we want, it seems clear where the policy should end up.
So you are not willing to compromise and continue to demand the impossible or unreasonable. Fine, but that is not how this works at ICANN. Our compromise line is one business day. If no one moves, we are at an impasse.
But please remember: Usually, you are going to get answers quicker, it is just a minimum guaranteed response time we are talking about. And anything you get here - ANYTHING! - is better than what you have now. We are not proposing to take anything away from you. We are freely agreeing to give you something. Let's not lose focus on this very important point.
Volker
Am 27.04.2018 um 23:24 schrieb Roman, Peter (CRM):
All,
A quick additional response to the comments in the LEA specification:
Note 7 says that “Registrar members of the IRT contend that the 24-hour period recommended by the PSWG is unworkable; PSWG members contend that 24 hours should be the maximum allowable time for a request to be actioned in an emergency situation.”
This is a complete misrepresentation of the PSWG position. The PSWG has maintained from the beginning of the conversation on emergency requests that they needed to be “actioned” immediately. The PSWG does NOT recommend the 24-hour period, the PSWG is willing to COMPROMISE to the 24 hour period.
The PSWG is NOT willing to compromise to the one business day response time. One business day, as the providers have explained it, means that an emergency request delivered to the provider on Friday afternoon does not need to be responded to until Monday afternoon. So, one business day means 72 hours or more. In an emergency, this is completely useless response time. By that time, people are dead. An imminent threat to life means that somebody is going to die any moment without this information.
I hope that you never have to respond to one of these requests but I also hope that if you do, you will not ignore it until you get to it the next business day.
Peter Roman
Senior Counsel
Computer Crime & Intellectual Property Section
Criminal Division
Department of Justice
1301 New York Ave., NW
Washington, DC 20530
(202) 305-1323
peter.roman at usdoj.gov<mailto:peter.roman at usdoj.gov>
From: Gdd-gnso-ppsai-impl [mailto:gdd-gnso-ppsai-impl-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Metalitz, Steven
Sent: Friday, April 27, 2018 2:24 PM
To: gdd-gnso-ppsai-impl at icann.org<mailto:gdd-gnso-ppsai-impl at icann.org>
Subject: Re: [Gdd-gnso-ppsai-impl] Notes, action items from today's PP IRT meeting--feedback requested by 27 April
Please see in-line feedback below regarding some of Sara’s points on the LEA specification.
On behalf of Coalition for Online Accountability (COA) | www.onlineaccountability.net<http://www.onlineaccountability.net>
<image001.gif>
Steven J. Metalitz | Partner, through his professional corporation
T: +1.202.355.7902 | met at msk.com<mailto:met at msk.com>
Mitchell Silberberg & Knupp LLP | www.msk.com<http://www.msk.com/>
1818 N Street NW, 8th Floor, Washington, DC 20036
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From: Gdd-gnso-ppsai-impl [mailto:gdd-gnso-ppsai-impl-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Amy Bivins
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2018 2:36 PM
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Subject: Re: [Gdd-gnso-ppsai-impl] Notes, action items from today's PP IRT meeting--feedback requested by 27 April
Thanks, Sara and Steve, for your comments on this draft thus far. I’ve updated the draft to address your last point, Sara, and in line with Steve’s comment about separating out standard and high priority requests. I’ve left the comments in the draft from Tuesday’s call for now. Absent any strong opposition to the inclusion of the other edits proposed by Sara, as noted in the draft, these will be accepted in the next draft.
I encourage all IRT members to review the draft again when you are able and provide any further feedback no later than the end of next week.
I don’t have any further information or materials for you today for next week’s meeting, but I hope to have something for you soon (I’ll send it as soon as I have it).
Best,
Amy
From: Gdd-gnso-ppsai-impl [mailto:gdd-gnso-ppsai-impl-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Sara Bockey
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2018 1:20 PM
To: gdd-gnso-ppsai-impl at icann.org<mailto:gdd-gnso-ppsai-impl at icann.org>
Subject: Re: [Gdd-gnso-ppsai-impl] Notes, action items from today's PP IRT meeting--feedback requested by 27 April
Regarding Section 4.2.2 “without limitations” is necessary to ensure legitimate instances not yet listed or thought of are covered. Examples of additional causes beyond the control of the Provider: war, terrorism, riots, power outage, internet outage, internet failure, server failure, foreign gov’t changes, labor disputes, etc.
Steve’s comment: (I think this refers to 4.1.2 of the revised document Amy sent out 4/17. ) This strikes me as a reasonable list of reasons why a provider would not be able to respond in a timely fashion to an LEA disclosure request (whether High Priority or Standard Priority), but not of reasons to deny altogether a request that otherwise meets the requirements of the specification. Should we append this list to what is now 4.1.4 (following “acts of nature”)? I would be much more comfortable including “without limitations” there rather than in 4.1.2.
Regarding Section 4.2.2.5<http://4.2.2.5> – I see no issue with redundancy and there is no harm in including this. If anything, it protects against potential abuse (in parts of the world that are less democratic)
Steve’s comment: This refers to the “well founded” phrasing in 4.1.2.5. I still have trouble understanding what would make a request that meets all the requirements of the specification not “well founded,” and believe I pointed out on the April 17 call why this situation differs from RAA 3.18.2 where “well-founded” appears (in short, that the RAA does not define what needs to go into an actionable LE request, and this specification does). Can Sara or others provide an example of when this ground for refusal of an LEA request might come into play?
Regarding Section 4.2.6 – Not redundant and 100% necessary. Particularly for providers in parts of the world that are less democratic. We must remember this will be applied globally. Belt and suspenders! At ICANN61 this addition gave registrars that spoke with me the most comfort.
Steve’s comment (this refers to the “due process” language now appearing in 4.1.6): I think it is redundant and for that reason do not object to it. “Foregoing due process within its applicable jurisdiction” is really a subset of 4.1.2.2, disclosure in contravention of applicable law. Regarding the legitimate concerns about “less democratic” jurisdictions: remember that this entire specification only applies to disclosure requests received from LE authorities within the provider’s own jurisdiction. If you choose to establish the provider within a “less democratic” jurisdiction, that provider still has to follow the laws of that jurisdiction, including the laws that define what process is due in a particular situation.
Finally, I note that Staff is using the 24-hr timeframe as the default in the document instead of one business day as agreed by the registrars. Since one business day is what the registrars have agreed to, should it not be the default until otherwise determined?
Steve’s comments: I have suggested putting the two options in square brackets, don’t care which one is listed first.
sara bockey
sr. policy manager | GoDaddy™
sbockey at godaddy.com<mailto:sbockey at godaddy.com> 480-366-3616
skype: sbockey
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From: Gdd-gnso-ppsai-impl <gdd-gnso-ppsai-impl-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gdd-gnso-ppsai-impl-bounces at icann.org>> on behalf of Amy Bivins <amy.bivins at icann.org<mailto:amy.bivins at icann.org>>
Reply-To: "gdd-gnso-ppsai-impl at icann.org<mailto:gdd-gnso-ppsai-impl at icann.org>" <gdd-gnso-ppsai-impl at icann.org<mailto:gdd-gnso-ppsai-impl at icann.org>>
Date: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 at 10:53 AM
To: "gdd-gnso-ppsai-impl at icann.org<mailto:gdd-gnso-ppsai-impl at icann.org>" <gdd-gnso-ppsai-impl at icann.org<mailto:gdd-gnso-ppsai-impl at icann.org>>
Subject: [Gdd-gnso-ppsai-impl] Notes, action items from today's PP IRT meeting--feedback requested by 27 April
Dear Colleagues,
Thank you for your participation on today’s privacy/proxy IRT call. For those who could not attend, I regret that we were unable to record this meeting (an issue with a new internal recording policy), but this was a one-time issue and all future meetings will be recorded. I’ve done my best to annotate the LEA specification document with the items we discussed, and have also attached the chat transcript.
IRT Action Items
We are nearing the completion of discussions on the LEA Specification. Other than the item of clear disagreement among members of the IRT—the time period for high priority requests—we are largely in the refining stage. To that end, we have a few final proposed edits for the group to review and comment on—including some edits that were originally suggested by Sara Bockey a few weeks ago and supported by many registrar members of the IRT. If we don’t hear any opposition to these edits that would warrant further discussion, we will make these edits as requested in the draft we publish for comment.
Today, we considered whether the LEA Framework Specification would be clearer if we reorganized it slightly, to make more clear where processes apply to high priority requests and when they don’t. I’ve included two versions of the draft—the one with “orig” at the end of the title—which includes the proposed edits without reorganizing, and the “reorganized” one. Please review both and respond to the list with your thoughts about the proposed reorganizing of this.
Please provide any additional input you have on this draft no later than next Friday, 27 April. Please note, specifically, questions in the following sections:
Original Numbering
Reorganized Version
Section 2.1.10 (addition of “except in high priority” language at beginning of edit)
Same section
Section 3.2.1 (addition of the words “Standard Priority” to make clear this 2 business day receipt process doesn’t apply in high priority cases)
Moved to Section 3.2.2
Section 4.2.2 (inclusion of “without limitations” language, plus input about and question from Steve Metalitz—any other reasons that registrars feel would be reasonable for refusing disclosure?); Also see feedback, generally, from PSWG liaison, in meeting chat transcript (most pasted into specification document but cuts off at the end)
Same section
Section 4.2.2.5<http://4.2.2.5> (is this redundant? )
Same section
Section 4.2.6 (is this redundant?)
Same section
I’m also attaching the most recent draft de-accreditation procedure document. As mentioned on the list last week, upon further consideration on the ICANN org side we think we should add back in the proposed transition procedure for customers impacted by the de-accreditation or termination of a third-party provider (section 4). Please review and provide any further comments on this no later than 27 April.
For next week, we are hoping to have the requested fees information ready for you to discuss. I’ll update you as soon as I can.
Best,
Amy
Amy E. Bivins
Registrar Services and Engagement Senior Manager
Registrar Services and Industry Relations
Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN)
Direct: +1 (202) 249-7551
Fax: +1 (202) 789-0104
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