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<body lang="en-BE" link="#0563C1" vlink="#954F72" style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Dear all, <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">With apologies for the delay, p</span><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">lease find below the notes from today’s meeting on </span><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Thursday</span><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">,<span style="color:black">
</span>13 January 2022 </span><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">at </span><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">13:</span><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">3<span style="color:black">0</span></span><span style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"> UTC.</span><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Kind regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Ariel, Steve, and Emily<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 1.0pt 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">Action Items:<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Action Item #1: EPDP Team members to provide input on draft text in response to charter question A6 and open items.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><u><span lang="EN-US"><o:p><span style="text-decoration:none"> </span></o:p></span></u></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><u><span lang="EN-US">Notes – IDNs EPDP Call – 13 January 2022<o:p></o:p></span></u></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u>Welcome & Chair Updates</u><u><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u><o:p><span style="text-decoration:none"> </span></o:p></u></p>
<ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-add-space:auto;mso-list:l9 level1 lfo4">
<span lang="EN-US">Staff shared draft text for a response to charter question a6. The leadership team has identified a number of questions for the EPDP team in the document. EPDP Team members are encouraged to review and provide feedback. These items will be
discussed further on the 20 January call.</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-add-space:auto;mso-list:l9 level1 lfo4">
<span lang="EN-US">If there are any questions in the interim, please share them on the mailing list.</span><o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Action Item #1: EPDP Team members to provide input on draft text in response to charter question A6 and open items.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u>Engagement session with SSAC members to discuss SSAC's early input and additional Q&A<o:p></o:p></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">General comments from SSAC members:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-add-space:auto;mso-list:l7 level1 lfo5">
<span lang="EN-US">There is nothing technically in the DNS protocol or other technical protocols (e.g. SMTP for mail, X509 used in TLS) that indicates relationships between two strings that are called variants. Once in use, there is no difference between a
variant and another domain name. They are two domain names. It is important to think about the implications of this and how it may be abused.</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-add-space:auto;mso-list:l7 level1 lfo5">
<span lang="EN-US">There might be cases where two strings are confusable. For confusability reasons, they can’t be given to two different registries. But there may be a business arrangement where they might be delegated to the same registry.</span><o:p></o:p>
<ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="circle">
<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-add-space:auto;mso-list:l7 level2 lfo5">
<span lang="EN-US">Clarification on the use of the term “confusable”: It might be the case that there are different rules if applications for two strings come from the same applicant or two different applicants. The term variant is one that is used between
applicants and those that evaluate applications. Once delegated, there are only domain names.
</span><o:p></o:p></li></ul>
</li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-add-space:auto;mso-list:l7 level1 lfo5">
<span lang="EN-US">Question: Have you had discussions about whether there needs to be a central index of strings that are variants in IANA?</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-add-space:auto;mso-list:l7 level1 lfo5">
<span lang="EN-US">Response: There have not been discussion of this issue. Each registry that handles variants keeps its own records.
</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-add-space:auto;mso-list:l7 level1 lfo5">
<span lang="EN-US">This group needs to talk about how IDN variants are delegated first and then will talk about how this is tracked, for example in IANA.
</span><o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Question regarding responses to A1 & A4:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-add-space:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo6">
<span lang="EN-US">When looking at different characters and code points that can be allowed, we need to separate code points that are allowed in a zone as a whole vs. code points that are allowed in a label together. Sub domains to the domain may also have
specific rules.</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-add-space:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo6">
<span lang="EN-US">The SSAC recommends that </span>the root zone must use one and only one set of rules for the Root LGR procedure<span lang="EN-US"> for validation of TLD labels and their variants.
</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-add-space:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo6">
<span lang="EN-US">Clarification of the question: The comment on A4 seemed to imply that if the string was IDNA valid, it should be allowed.
</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-add-space:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo6">
<span lang="EN-US">Clarification: The RZ-LGR should be an absolute quantifier or rule set for what should be allowed in the root zone. If an existing TLD applies for a variant TLD label whose script is not yet supported by the applicable version of the RZ-LGR,
then the best way is to put the application on hold, the community to work together to produce a LGR for that script and integrate into the LGR.
</span><o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u><span lang="EN-US"><o:p><span style="text-decoration:none"> </span></o:p></span></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Question regarding responses to A2:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-add-space:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo6">
<span lang="EN-US">SSAC members point to ccTLDs specifically because there may be a mix of policies with ccTLDs and gTLDs, so it is important to look at synchronized TLDs to ensure continuity of policies. Yes, the word variant in ccTLDs is wrong, the right
term is “synchronized TLDs”<o:p></o:p></span></li><li style="color:black;margin-top:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo6;vertical-align:baseline">
<span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">If such a situation mentioned in A2 did happen, the applicant can request a review on the LGR to see if LGR needs to be updated. It is important not to make ad hoc exceptions that could potentially undermine the
LGR. <o:p></o:p></span></li><li style="color:black;margin-top:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo6;vertical-align:baseline">
<span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">The existence of LGR </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">not only
</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">set a boundary on the strings an applicant can apply for,
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">it also</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> create</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">s</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
a predictive environment for the users of domain names, in services, applications, user interfaces and ultimately the users that use these applications and services.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">ALAC question 1 regarding responses to A5 & C2:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-add-space:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo6">
<span lang="EN-US">Don’t blanket delegate all variants because you can. Look at the bundled experience you want users to have and only delegate the ones you need. The larger the set, the harder it is to keep everything synchronized.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-add-space:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo6">
<span lang="EN-US">Question: If the Registry is interested in applying for many variants, is there any reason that they should be prevented from doing so from the perspective of technical risks?<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-add-space:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo6">
<span lang="EN-US">Response: This is too hypothetical to answer from the SSAC perspective. There is no ability to separate between two variants and two domain names from a technical perspective. The SSAC approaches the issue from this perspective.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-add-space:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo6">
<span lang="EN-US">Response: In a particular language community, the concept of variants is important. The SSAC is saying that it is hard to make that work, because there is no technical way to set this up. If you are going to make it work the way that a language
community expects, there needs to be a lot of work done to make it work. If you are going to make it work, it is a lot easier to limit the number of variants in a bundle. From a security and stability standpoint, you can have as many as you want, as long as
you keep them synchronized and do the work to do that. <o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-add-space:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo6">
<span lang="EN-US">As an example, if you have a language community with two very important variants, SSAC doesn’t see a problem for the community having a policy for allowing the applicant to have two labels for the price of one. But after the business transaction,
the entity has two domain names. There is no technical solution to keep those variants together.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-add-space:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo6">
<span lang="EN-US">We already have examples in ccTLDs where they implement policies where variants don’t point to the same website. SSAC doesn’t have a problem with that from a technical point of view. This concerns business and policy.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">ALAC question 2 regarding responses to A5 & C2:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-add-space:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo7">
<span lang="EN-US">This follows from the suggestion to only instantiate variants that your language community needs. The SSAC recommends that the language communities are in a better position than SSAC to make decisions about criteria for limits. In making
that decision, the people involved should keep in mind that every time they add to the bundle, they add to the challenge of managing the bundle.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-add-space:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo7">
<span lang="EN-US">Question: No one really speaks for a language community authoritatively, so how can this be implemented? Possible alternative – criteria for a registry to demonstrate in the application process that it is in a position to effectively manage
the variants it is requesting.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-add-space:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo7">
<span lang="EN-US">Response: There may be different elements of this evaluation depending on what is being proposed in terms of variants.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-add-space:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo7">
<span lang="EN-US">Question: Was some of this thinking done with ccTLDs in mind? The ccTLD Fast Track process was relatively fast moving compared to the gTLD process. Was there any thinking in the SSAC discussion about the differences?<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-add-space:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo7">
<span lang="EN-US">Response: I don’t believe the differences were discussed. <o:p>
</o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-add-space:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo7">
<span lang="EN-US">From an application evaluation standpoint, how can one determine whether an applicant is capable of making a set of variants work? There are not technical tools to make that work. This is a problem for the EPDP to solve.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-add-space:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo7">
<span lang="EN-US">Question: Could the SSAC help in thinking about the things that need to be synchronized to make variants work? This would help formulate a list of things for an evaluator to consider?<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-add-space:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo7">
<span lang="EN-US">Answer: It’s not possible to make a complete list because we don’t know how the domains will be used.
<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-add-space:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo7">
<span lang="EN-US">Answer: It’s possible to provide illustrative examples, but would be concerning if those examples were converted into definitive criteria.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Jeff’s questions regarding A5:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-add-space:auto;mso-list:l5 level1 lfo8">
<span lang="EN-US">Apply a very tight limit at the start to ensure that you have a conservative start. As operators gain experience, you may decide to make the rules more permissive.
<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:35.7pt;mso-add-space:auto;text-indent:-17.85pt;mso-list:l5 level1 lfo8">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-US">Start with the question: Is one label sufficient? If not, are two sufficient? If not, which candidate variants are uniquely differentiated from the primary label, widely used in the community?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.7pt;text-indent:-17.85pt;mso-list:l5 level1 lfo8;vertical-align:baseline">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:Symbol;color:black;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">For example, the Chinese community allows for three variant labels, one which has been applied-for, one which is the Simplified Chinese version and one which is
the Traditional Chinese version. A similar limit may be imposed in the beginning to ensure conservatism, and which may be relaxed over time, as the community gains experience with IDN variant TLD delegation and associated usability and manageability challenges. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-add-space:auto;mso-list:l5 level1 lfo8">
<span lang="EN-US">There could be cases where more variants than are necessary may be applied for because of economic value, but there is concern that hundred or tens of variants for a label may create technical and management challenges for the parties involved.
</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-add-space:auto;mso-list:l5 level1 lfo8">
<span lang="EN-US">Question: How do you apply the proposed questions above in practice? An applicant for variants will always argue that they are necessary. How can you evaluate what is or is not necessary?<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-add-space:auto;mso-list:l5 level1 lfo8">
<span lang="EN-US">Response: The SSAC advises a conservative approach initially rather than a self-regulatory system. The SSAC is not assuming that actors or good or bad. The SSAC is interested in reducing the risk of a combinatory explosion.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-add-space:auto;mso-list:l5 level1 lfo8">
<span lang="EN-US">It is for policy work to define synchronization and determine how synchronization can be achieved.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;margin-bottom:11.0pt;mso-list:l5 level1 lfo8;vertical-align:baseline">
<span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">This combinatorial explosion creates a stability issue at both registrars and registries, and will likely complicate account management and user experience for registrants.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Questions regarding B3 and C4a:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-add-space:auto;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo9">
<span lang="EN-US">We call them variants, but in fact they are different domain names. Whatever you do to make them the same in practice is entirely up to the registrant. Any policy you make is going to be something you cannot do mechanically. You can make
rules, but they need to be phrased in a way that is not technical.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-add-space:auto;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo9">
<span lang="EN-US">In practice the implementation of variants has been poor. If we are going to make a good user experience better, we need to make sure that that measures are in place to implement them more effectively. Example: .cat d-names.
<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-add-space:auto;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo9">
<span lang="EN-US">Issues can come up anywhere you have to compare two versions of a name. It’s not just an issue of DNS lookups.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Additional questions: <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-add-space:auto;mso-list:l6 level1 lfo10">
<span lang="EN-US">Question: Most registries now just activate one name and block the variants?<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-add-space:auto;mso-list:l6 level1 lfo10">
<span lang="EN-US">Response: Correct, most follow this model.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-add-space:auto;mso-list:l6 level1 lfo10">
<span lang="EN-US">Question: Is there a technical barrier to having a policy that allows a registrant to switch which is the primary and which is the variant at the second level.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-add-space:auto;mso-list:l6 level1 lfo10">
<span lang="EN-US">Response: The cause for concern is if the variant is going to a different registrant, but there is otherwise not a technical concern.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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