[Gnso-epdp-team] Experts for the lunch time presentations during the LA f2f meeting

Mark Svancarek (CELA) marksv at microsoft.com
Fri Aug 9 16:52:39 UTC 2019 

I am not sure why this thread continues, but … I’d note that even yesterday, after we decided not to have a presentation during one of our meetings, we encountered some “how is it done” and “what about this” interventions.  I find these very distracting and a stall on our work simply because they can be used to challenge any position and cannot be answered by anyone on the call.

The intent was not to demonstrate how much harder something has become – it was to explain how things are being done, lawfully, right now, and how these use cases play out in the real world.  It seems to hard to discover a new and realistic path if we don’t have a common understanding of the path.

The assertion that my offer was planned as some sort of partisan work-around to our work is unfair and is very distressing to me.

/marksv

From: Gnso-epdp-team <gnso-epdp-team-bounces at icann.org> On Behalf Of Volker Greimann
Sent: Friday, August 9, 2019 2:31 AM
To: Alan Woods <alan at donuts.email>
Cc: gnso-epdp-team at icann.org
Subject: Re: [Gnso-epdp-team] Experts for the lunch time presentations during the LA f2f meeting

I tend to agree.
Interested parties could just create a paper for us to peruse prior to the meeting. I'd rather use the time we have allotted for discussions and progress rather than for stalling our work.

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On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 10:06 AM Alan Woods <alan at donuts.email<mailto:alan at donuts.email>> wrote:
Dear all,

As much as I appreciate the opportunity to hear from experts in the field, I am left wondering what is the point, other than genuine, if completely general, interest in the subject. We know that now that the industry has been forced to finally take notice of data privacy law, the access to the data must be better regulated by the industry and this invariably means that processes that have been built over years, reliant on unfettered public access, and the onward repackaging of such data by third parties (need I point out the successful appeal in the .NZ case) has been less than above board. I think we are all well aware that problems are faced by those who used these streams of data, and we of course have much sympathy for those who have built process and procedure over the years reliant on this data. That is why we are all sitting at this table, is it not?  A presentation on how it's now suddenly difficult to follow those old processes is simply not going to help in our task. Can we please focus on the actual task as to actually finding the new and realistic path of least resistance, whilst still ensuring that such data sharing is, for once, legal.

That being said, I appreciate the offer, and I too would be very interested to hear from such a great team, but I am also an advocate of not eating into our valuable face-to-face time. I will fully support Chris' suggestion to have it presented separately, and recalling the point that Kristina raised in Marrakesh, let's record that session and then members who are unable to attend, can then review the recording at a time that suits them if they so wish.

Kind regards,

Alan



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On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 8:25 AM LEWIS-EVANS, Christopher <Christopher.Lewis-Evans at nca.gov.uk<mailto:Christopher.Lewis-Evans at nca.gov.uk>> wrote:

OFFICIAL
Mark
I think it would be helpful before if you can make it happen as then it will give everyone the ability to get more information for the face to face. We all used to be free on a Tuesday so how about a webinar the Tuesday before the face to face?

Thanks
Chris

From: Gnso-epdp-team [mailto:gnso-epdp-team-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-epdp-team-bounces at icann.org>] On Behalf Of Mark Svancarek (CELA) via Gnso-epdp-team
Sent: 07 August 2019 23:25
To: gnso-epdp-lead at icann.org<mailto:gnso-epdp-lead at icann.org>; 'EPDP'
Subject: Re: [Gnso-epdp-team] Experts for the lunch time presentations during the LA f2f meeting

(resending to correct list)

Thanks to everyone for your feedback.

The impetus for a DCU presentation came from a (very) brief exchange between myself and Farzi at the end of a recent meeting.  We  considered that since we encounter questions which can’t be answered during a meeting (e.g. “How does a Doe suit proceed and why is it problematic to a particular use case?”), it would be helpful to interact with a subject matter expert able to answer the many questions we all have regarding these investigations in the real world.

I admitted at the time that it might not be popular due to our time constraints, but that I could make it happen at some TBD future date if we collectively agreed that it would be valuable.  Along the way, it turned into a proposal tied to the LA face-to-face meeting, which in retrospect wasn’t a great idea.

The remaining alternatives are a webinar (before or after LA) or a presentation/Q&A during a regularly scheduled THU meeting a la Steve Crocker’s BBQ presentation – or to drop the idea entirely.  Of these, I think the webinar idea is best, if we can find a timeslot that works for the majority of EPDP members who are interested in the topic and able to bring tough questions for discussion.

Please let me know how you’d like to proceed.

/marksv


From: Gnso-epdp-team <gnso-epdp-team-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-epdp-team-bounces at icann.org>> On Behalf Of Anderson, Marc via Gnso-epdp-team
Sent: Tuesday, August 6, 2019 10:53 AM
To: alex at colevalleyconsulting.com<mailto:alex at colevalleyconsulting.com>; icann at ferdeline.com<mailto:icann at ferdeline.com>; gnso-epdp-team at icann.org<mailto:gnso-epdp-team at icann.org>
Cc: gnso-epdp-lead at icann.org<mailto:gnso-epdp-lead at icann.org>
Subject: Re: [Gnso-epdp-team] Experts for the lunch time presentations during the LA f2f meeting

I would also be interested in hearing from the Microsoft Digital Crimes Unit, but I don’t feel the LA face to face is the right venue.  So far we received one external briefing during a regular weekly call and two during the lunch block at Marrakesh.  Of those, I thought the one during our weekly call worked better and didn’t think there was anything covered in Marrakesh that required face to face interaction.  My preference would be to invite them to present at a future weekly call.

Thank you to Mark Sv for the offer to invite the Microsoft Digital Crimes Unit to speak to us.  I admit it’s not immediately clear to me from the original email from Janis how this ties to our work, but I assume that Mark would not have suggested this if it didn’t relate to developing policy recommendations on access to non-public registration data.

I also want to echo one of Milton’s points about non-working lunches.  In phase 1 we struggled to move forward until we had the LA face to face.  In my view the ability to talk between formal facilitated sessions and over lunch was key to the success in LA and laid the groundwork for much of the work we would later accomplish.  We need to bake in time for those all important side conversations that allow those with opposing positions to talk, share views and develop common positions that can achieve consensus support.

Best,
Marc


From: Gnso-epdp-team <gnso-epdp-team-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-epdp-team-bounces at icann.org>> On Behalf Of Alex Deacon
Sent: Tuesday, August 6, 2019 12:58 PM
To: Ayden Férdeline <icann at ferdeline.com<mailto:icann at ferdeline.com>>
Cc: gnso-epdp-lead at icann.org<mailto:gnso-epdp-lead at icann.org>; gnso-epdp-team at icann.org<mailto:gnso-epdp-team at icann.org>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Gnso-epdp-team] Experts for the lunch time presentations during the LA f2f meeting

I would be interested in hearing from the Microsoft DCU team and having the opportunity to ask them questions on how they do what they do.

However  I also appreciate Ayden’s strongly held feelings so perhaps we should consider a happy hour presentation at the end of our day allowing us to take full advantage of the facilitators and our time together during the day.

What could be more fun than learning about digital crimes investigation while enjoying a cocktail or three?

Alex

On Mon, Aug 5, 2019 at 4:14 PM Ayden Férdeline <icann at ferdeline.com<mailto:icann at ferdeline.com>> wrote:
I'm sorry, I really do not understand why this would be useful for our face-to-face meeting. I do not oppose having special webinars so that experts can share with us additional information and field our questions. But I worry it would be information overload having these presentations at the face-to-face meeting as well. And if we have external facilitators in Los Angeles next month, I think it would be a better use of this resource to spend what little time we do have in a face-to-face environment focusing on our core work plan, and not having briefings from external presenters that may or may not be relevant to what we have to deal with then. I feel very strongly about this. I am afraid I did not leave the presentations we had in Marrakech from external presenters with any inputs that I have been able to take forward, be it here in this working group or elsewhere at ICANN.

Best wishes,

Ayden Férdeline

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Saturday, 3 August 2019 10:45, Hadia Abdelsalam Mokhtar EL miniawi <Hadia at tra.gov.eg<mailto:Hadia at tra.gov.eg>> wrote:

> I totally agree with having presentations during lunch time. Certainly we shall have other opportunities for networking and it does not matter if the information is neutral or not, all members of the EPDP team are intelligent people who can decide which information to consider and which to simply disregard. To have the opportunity to learn more is always good and Milton you had your experience with them already because of a research you were conducting, its a good opportunity for the rest of us to develop our own.
>
> Best
>
> Hadia
>
> From: Gnso-epdp-team gnso-epdp-team-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-epdp-team-bounces at icann.org> on behalf of Mueller, Milton L milton at gatech.edu<mailto:milton at gatech.edu>
> Sent: 03 August 2019 05:20
> To: Alan Greenberg
> Cc: gnso-epdp-team at icann.org<mailto:gnso-epdp-team at icann.org>; gnso-epdp-lead at icann.org<mailto:gnso-epdp-lead at icann.org>
> Subject: Re: [Gnso-epdp-team] Experts for the lunch time presentations during the LA f2f meeting
>
> First, it’s not true that working lunches haven’t accomplished much - they have
>
> Second, how about a bloody non-working lunch? Or two? Where we can chat and informally network? We will be working intensively for 8 hours at least.
>
> Third, it is simply not true that routing useful
> Info through epdp team members requires “extraordinary time” nor is it true that you save time doing it the other way (indeed, that’s obviously a self-contradictory position.) We are discussing use cases at length and any information or arguments made in those discussions should not be given a privileged status, they come in via team members.
>
> Milton L Mueller
> Professor, School of Public Policy
> Georgia Institute of Technology
>
> On Aug 2, 2019, at 19:29, Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg at mcgill.camailto:alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca<mailto:alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca>> wrote:
>
> I disagree. Working lunch meetings rarely accomplish much, so scheduling what may be an interesting presentation, even if from a particular perspective (and known to be) can be both informative and useful. Those who choose to just eat and not pay attention are free to do so.
>
> The suggestion to route any useful information through a EPDP member presumes we will be willing to give a member a significant and extraordinary time slot to do so and I would not advocate doing that.
>
> We have three lunch slots and I would welcome other presentations of interest/use for the other two days.
>
> Alan
>
> At 02/08/2019 06:55 PM, Mueller, Milton L wrote:
>
> Janis,
> Much as I would love to hear more about MSFT’s digital crimes unit (I already have seen some of their presentations and we’ve interviewed one of their botnet fighters in connection with research we are doing) I think after our not-so-great experiences with external presentations in Marrakech the group really needs to “just say no� to any additional presentations of this sort. Please, let’s not encourage these requests anymore, let’s put an end to this precedent.
>
> We have to be aware of the fact that these presentations are not neutral and purely informational, they come from serious players with a stake in the process. Microsoft is represented on the EPDP and through the BC. IF they can bring useful information to bear on our discussions of use cases they can do it through their EPDP representative in line with our regular discussions, in which we all have equal status.
>
> Dr. Milton L Mueller
> Georgia Institute of Technology
> School of Public Policy
>
> From: Gnso-epdp-team <gnso-epdp-team-bounces at icann.orgmailto:gnso-epdp-team-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-epdp-team-bounces at icann.org>> On Behalf Of Ayden Férdeline
> Sent: Friday, August 2, 2019 6:58 AM
> To: Janis Karklins <karklinsj at gmail.commailto:karklinsj at gmail.com<mailto:karklinsj at gmail.com>>
> Cc: gnso-epdp-lead at icann.orgmailto:gnso-epdp-lead at icann.org<mailto:gnso-epdp-lead at icann.org>; gnso-epdp-team at icann.orgmailto:gnso-epdp-team at icann.org<mailto:gnso-epdp-team at icann.org>
> Subject: Re: [Gnso-epdp-team] Experts for the lunch time presentations during the LA f2f meeting
>
> It is a very short face-to-face meeting, and I imagine we will have a lot on the agenda and hopefully the excellent external facilitators present. I would prefer that we not have any additional, external presenters during the face-to-face - though I am certainly happy to join a webinar over the coming weeks to hear what anyone has to say.
>
> Best wishes,
> Ayden Férdeline
>
> ������� Original Message �������
> On Friday, 2 August 2019 05:30, Janis Karklins <karklinsj at gmail.commailto:karklinsj at gmail.com<mailto:karklinsj at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Dear team members,
>
> I am writing to you in inform that I have received offer from Mark Svancarek to bring an expert from Microsoft’s Digital Crimes Unit and to make a (lunch time) presentation of their routine practices in investigating cases of concern to Microsoft. I think such a presentation would help us foster understand challenges facing digital wrongdoing investigators from private companies.
>
> I also would like to ask if there would be any other experts who could make lunchtime presentations either onsite or remotely.
>
> I would be grateful for your thoughts on the proposal above.
>
> Thank you
> JK
>
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