[Gnso-epdp-team] Recommendation 12 - Reasonable Access

Hadia Abdelsalam Mokhtar EL miniawi Hadia at tra.gov.eg
Thu Feb 7 14:09:52 UTC 2019


All,

First and for most the intention is not to expand ICANN’s compliance role, the objective is to simply allow a trusted system to exist. I am surprised by the mention of words like” we have agreed to minimum requirements and compromised” while it is obvious that a transparent auditable system is the only means by which you can assert the functionality of any process. Transparency and trust is what our wider Internet community needs, it does not matter which stakeholder you represent or what interests you are fighting for if our processes are not built on transparent trusted systems then we are making big mistakes here. The community being requesters, domain holders or users whether simple end users or as mentioned by Ayden civil society or others need to have faith in the process.
The recommendation sent today by Dianne, Sarah and others I believe addresses many of our concerns.

Hadia
From: Gnso-epdp-team [mailto:gnso-epdp-team-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Ayden Férdeline
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2019 3:56 PM
To: farzaneh badii
Cc: gnso-epdp-team at icann.org
Subject: Re: [Gnso-epdp-team] Recommendation 12 - Reasonable Access

I agree with Farzaneh; I have difficulty accepting this recommendation in general, but the compromise that I have reluctantly come to accept is a set of minimum requirements. The continued demand to expand the role of ICANN Compliance, which I note remains in the latest version of the text circulated by Diane, is a bridge too far, at least for me. I would like to see an acknowledgement of these concerns please.

Ayden


‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Wednesday, February 6, 2019 6:46 PM, farzaneh badii <farzaneh.badii at gmail.com> wrote:

Well I don't think you can implicitly or explicitly expand the "role of ICANN compliance". ICANN compliance has to make sure that the agreement that has been reached and the contract that has been drafted is not breached. So in effect, you are talking about an implementation issue which does not belong here. The fact that we have agreed to the "minimum requirements" is an actual compromise. If we are going to talk about auditing and enforcement of the rules, I would like to see a  cap on the number of  "requests for access" within a certain period of time. Even sometimes legitimate lawful access doesn't need to be responded to immediately especially when there are other avenues for asserting rights.

Are my criteria unreasonable and not GDPR compliant? Nothing new really, mimicking the approach some in this group have taken for too long.


Farzaneh


On Wed, Feb 6, 2019 at 5:27 PM Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca<mailto:alan.greenberg at mcgill.ca>> wrote:
Ayden, prior to the Temp Spec, contracted parties had no need to reply to such requests because the information was public. With the Temp Spec and with the policy and Purposes we are recommending, contracted parties have a new obligation. Thus we are implicitly "expanding the role of Contractual Compliance" since their role is to ensure that contracted parties are fully fulfilling their obligations and we are adding obligations!

Alan

At 06/02/2019 03:19 PM, Ayden Férdeline wrote:



I oppose the edit put

forward by our colleagues in the ALAC that seeks to expand the role of

Contractual Compliance.



However, if the desire is more along the lines of (2) and the tool was

funded on a cost-recovery basis by those seeking to utilize it, and not

indirectly or directly by registrants, I would not object to language

along the following lines:



--

The EPDP Team recommends that ICANN org and the contracted parties

develop a mechanism that provides third party requestors with uniform

statistical information on the 1) nature of submitted requests, 2)

average processing time, and 3) the number of requests approved or

rejected, with rationale appropriately coded for information purposes.

Such a mechanism must be funded on a cost-recovery basis by those private

sector third parties who make access requests and seek to have access to

these records.

--



Ayden





 Original Message

On Wednesday, February 6, 2019 2:59 PM, Mark Svancarek \(CELA\) via

Gnso-epdp-team

<<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team>

gnso-epdp-team at icann.org<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team>> wrote:



> Hopefully there is some language which properly reflects the

variability of request responses while recognizing that nothing can be

judged successful or improved without measuring it.

>

> For example, in our online services (1) we offer a firm SLA to

our customers and reimburse them when we miss it, regardless why we

missed it... but (2) internally we generate more interesting metrics to

better understand the root causes, opportunities to improve, and the

relative frequency of the various issues. Also, this reduces

finger-pointing between teams.

>

> CPs cannot agree to language which implies (1); ALAC is

requesting something like (2).

>

> /marksv

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Gnso-epdp-team

<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team>

gnso-epdp-team-bounces at icann.org<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team> On Behalf Of Hadia Abdelsalam

Mokhtar EL miniawi

> Sent: Wednesday, February 6, 2019 11:36

> To: Alan Woods

alan at<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team>

donuts.email<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team>

> Cc:

<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team>

gnso-epdp-team at icann.org<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team>

> Subject: Re: [Gnso-epdp-team] Recommendation 12 - Reasonable

Access

>

> Hi Alan,

>

> I am sorry that this is how you feel about our suggestion with

regard to compliance, certainly there was no intention to having a stick

to beat the contracted parties. Usually auditing is something that both

parties benefit from. In what sense does our suggestion put new

obligations on the contracted parties? It is just a means of verifying

the process and this is good for the CPs as well because it ascertains

the functionality of their system. Moreover how does the suggestion of

having some kind of auditing contradict with the fact that every single

request received must be considered individually? Additionally, we never

said that existing complaints' processes can not be used we only said

that you need to agree on the auditing mechanisms/means or whatever you

want to call it. This is merely a suggestion to implement a sense of

trust into the system, rather than having that trust something as

intangible as good faith between the parties involved.

>

> Finally I invite you to put a few lines that speak about using

existing complaints processes in this regard.

>

> Hadia

>

> From: Alan Woods

alan at<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team>

donuts.email<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team>

> Sent: 06 February 2019 19:01

> To: Hadia Abdelsalam Mokhtar EL miniawi

> Cc: Marika Konings; Sarah Wyld;

<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team>

gnso-epdp-team at icann.org<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team>

> Subject: Re: [Gnso-epdp-team] Recommendation 12 - Reasonable

Access

>

> To be perfectly honest, I think that Hadia & Alan's

suggestions, are perilously close to going against the the very nature of

the tentative agreements we have on Recommendation 12. If their point of

view is that ICANN compliance must be used as a stick to beat the

Contracted parties into submission/compliance, I find that exceptionally

unhelpful. It is not the role of the ePDP to create new obligations for

CPs outside of that which is necessary for GDPR compliance!

>

> The repeated issue of the parties is that it is nigh on

impossible to set this in stone; every single request received must be

considered individually, on its own merits (as the GDPR, which supersedes

all our machinations, requires). The CPs are coming to the table in

goodwill noting that we understand the need for predictability for 3rd

party requests. We have discussed at length the impossibility of setting

a strict timeline on such requests, I simply think this squanders the

goodwill in this agreement in now suggesting a frankly unimplementable,

or more likely a utterly ad hoc and random audit system, rather than

accepting that the contracted parties are acting in good faith, and will

continue to do so. For those CPs who do not act in good faith, I have a

feeling that a poor audit result regarding response to disclosure

requests will be the least of the issues.

>

> There are elements that are tangible and capable of ICANN review

upon complaints regarding same, using existing complaints processes.

Let's not reinvent the wheel here!

>

> So to be clear. The RYSG strongly opposes the ALAC addition.

>

> Alan

>

> [Donuts

Inc.]<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fdonuts.domains&data=02%7C01%7Cmarksv%40microsoft.com%7Ca9079d3d169b43325b3f08d68c6aa4ce%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636850787006891055&sdata=qNzaAlOZg%2FMQWGew0BAhQsiEgNSJWm93KQLay7KeXJM%3D&reserved=0>

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> Alan Woods

> Senior Compliance & Policy Manager, Donuts Inc.

>

> The Victorians,

> 15-18 Earlsfort Terrace

> Dublin 2, County Dublin

> Ireland

>

>

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>

> Please NOTE: This electronic message, including any attachments,

may include privileged, confidential and/or inside information owned by

Donuts Inc. . Any distribution or use of this communication by anyone

other than the intended recipient(s) is strictly prohibited and may be

unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender

by replying to this message and then delete it from your system. Thank

you.

>

> On Wed, Feb 6, 2019 at 12:10 PM Hadia Abdelsalam Mokhtar EL

miniawi

<Hadia<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team>

at<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team>

tra.gov.egmailto<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team>

:Hadia at<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team>

tra.gov.eg<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team>> wrote:

> Hi all , I have added a few words about compliance and the

implantation of the policy and hence propose the following minor edits to

recommendation number 12

>

> "

> The EPDP Team recommends that ICANN org and the contracted

parties develop a mechanism that allows ICANN Contractual Compliance to

audit response times to the requests.

> The EPDP recommends that the implementation of this policy

includes requirements of acknowledgement of recipient of requests and the

response to such requests, criteria for a " Reasonable Request for

lawful Disclosure" and a mechanism that allows ICANN Contractual

Compliance to audit response time to the requests.

>

> The implementation of this policy will include at a minimum

"

>

> The above is to replace

>

> "The EPDP Team recommends that criteria for a “Reasonable

Request for Lawful Disclosure” and the requirements for acknowledging

receipt of a request and response to such request will be defined as part

of the implementation[Kristina 1] of these policy recommendations but

will include at a minimum: "

>

> Hadia

>

> From: Gnso-epdp-team

[<mailto:gnso-epdp-team-bounces>

mailto:gnso-epdp-team-bounces at

icann.orgmailto:gnso-epdp-team-bounces at icann.org<http://icann.org>] On Behalf Of Hadia

Abdelsalam Mokhtar EL miniawi

> Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2019 12:32 PM

> To: Marika Konings; Sarah Wyld;

<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team>

gnso-epdp-team at<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team>

icann.orgmailto<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team>

:<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team>

gnso-epdp-team at icann.org<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team>

> Subject: Re: [Gnso-epdp-team] Recommendation 12 - Reasonable

Access

>

> Hi all, the below comments are on behalf of Alan G

>

> the proposal.

>

> 1.  still does not set an expectation that although SOME

requests may take the specified limit, not all should. Nor does it seem

to imply that the Contractual Compliance has any ability to audit

response times.

> 2.  I find the reference to "GDPR legal bases"

problematic. For example, under the current proposals, a registrar who is

operating full outside of the EU mat redact information for legal persons

and for natural persons not subject to the GDPR. What is the GDPR legal

basis for requesting information on such registrations. According to GDPR

there was no need for redaction to begin with, so a registrar can refuse

to provide any results with full impunity.

>

>     From: Gnso-epdp-team

[<mailto:gnso-epdp-team-bounces%20at%20icann.orgmailto:gnso-epdp-team-bounces%20at%20icann.org>

mailto:gnso-epdp-team-bounces at icann.orgmailto:gnso-epdp-team-bounces<mailto:gnso-epdp-team-bounces%20at%20icann.orgmailto:gnso-epdp-team-bounces%20at%20icann.org>

at icann.org<mailto:gnso-epdp-team-bounces%20at%20icann.orgmailto:gnso-epdp-team-bounces%20at%20icann.org>] On Behalf Of Marika Konings

>

>

> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2019 11:43 PM

> To: Sarah Wyld;

<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team>

gnso-epdp-team at<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team>

icann.orgmailto<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team>

:<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team>

gnso-epdp-team at icann.org<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team>

> Subject: Re: [Gnso-epdp-team] Recommendation 12 - Reasonable

Access

>

> Thanks, Sarah.

>

> EPDP Team members, as this topic is included in the agenda for

tomorrow’s meeting, please share any issues or concerns your group may

have with the modified language prior to the meeting, if possible. Staff

has taken the liberty to fix some formatting issues in the attached

version (some of the sub-bullets did not appear properly).

>

> Best regards,

>

> Caitlin, Berry and Marika

>

> From: Gnso-epdp-team

<<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team>

gnso-epdp-team-bounces at<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team>

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:<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team>

gnso-epdp-team-bounces at icann.org<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team>> on behalf of Sarah Wyld

<swyld<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team>

at<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team>

tucows.commailto<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team>

:swyld at<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team>

tucows.com<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team>>

> Organization: Tucows

> Date: Tuesday, February 5, 2019 at 12:31

> To:

"<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team>

gnso-epdp-team at<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team>

icann.orgmailto<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team>

:<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team>

gnso-epdp-team at icann.org<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team>"

<<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team>

gnso-epdp-team at<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team>

icann.orgmailto<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team>

:<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team>

gnso-epdp-team at icann.org<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-epdp-team>>

>

> Subject: [Gnso-epdp-team] Recommendation 12 - Reasonable Access

>

> Hello All,

>

> As discussed on today's call, here is the proposed revised Rec.

12 from RySG/RrSG. Thank you.

>

>

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> Sarah Wyld

>

> Domains Product Team

>

> Tucows

>

> +1.416 535 0123 Ext. 1392

>

> On 1/31/2019 11:31 PM, Kurt Pritz wrote:

>

> Hello Everyone:

>

> Thanks again for your perseverance. And - thank you in advance

for your spirit of cooperation and compromise in considering the

attached. We have spent the last few days reviewing the transcripts and

other records of our recent discussions and then amending the Final

Report Recommendations - taking into account the Initial Report

Recommendations, the small team work, the conclusions in Toronto and

these last several meetings.

>

> The Recommendations included here are:

>

> Recommendation 5 - Data elements to be transferred from

Registrars to Registries

>

> Recommendation 10 - Email communication

>

> Recommendation 12 - Reasonable Access

>

> Recommendation 14 - Responsible Parties

>

> [Not included are Rec. 13 (sent earlier) and Rec. 11 and the

Research Purpose (to be sent tomorrow.]

>

> Each of these documents has a brief forward containing a

description of the pertinent discussion and an explanation for choosing

the wording in the Recommendations. They each then contain the

Recommendation as originally written and a redline of the proposed

recommendation based on the most recent discussions. Please read the

entire documents (they are not long), and not just the recommendation

itself.

>

> I am certainly not asking for you to stand silently by if you

disagree with these Recommendations because they would negatively impact

GDPR compliance. I am asking that you study the balancing that went into

this and be ready to accept wording in cases where it does not match your

own choice.

>

> Please review with your groups and return to us by Monday so

that we can put any of these on the Tues/Wed/Thur agendas.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> Kurt

>

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> [Kristina 1]see previous comment about IRT/actor

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