[Gnso-igo-ingo-crp] [gnso-secs] MP3, Attendance & AC Chat for IGO-INGO CRP PDP WG call on Thursday, 27 April 2017

[Julie Bisland]

Dear All,

Please find the attendance and MP3 recording along with the AC recording and chat below for the IGO-INGO Curative Rights Protection PDP WG Meeting held on Thursday, 27 April 2017 at 16:00 UTC.

Mp3:  https://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-igo-ingo-crp-access-27apr17-en.mp3
AC Recording:  https://participate.icann.org/p3kbgsm5d25/

<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__audio.icann.org_gnso_gnso-2Dcrp-2Dpdp-2D13oct16-2Den.mp3&d=DQMF-g&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=8_WhWIPqsLT6TmF1Zmyci866vcPSFO4VShFqESGe_5iHWGlBLwwwehFBfjrsjWv9&m=asM5JoG30Yqf49-Nims9k3McNfFtmzlAe1HmuXI6wic&s=0nZvoU1RqsjvPcNWDN_a2vVZDp9uXeyGO8NN2dN5h74&e=>The recordings and transcriptions of the calls are posted on the GNSO Master Calendar page:
http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__gnso.icann.org_en_group-2Dactivities_calendar-23nov&d=DQMF-g&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=8_WhWIPqsLT6TmF1Zmyci866vcPSFO4VShFqESGe_5iHWGlBLwwwehFBfjrsjWv9&m=wBBn3Ar2_mvUeGcM8rpOAyluUFEJFG5lASQ-cAccI2k&s=3BfiwO43tzwlrIbIyBY4Q-14zsFQCX518fLLR8GWR7I&e=>

Attendees:
David Maher - RySG
George Kirikos - Individual
Jay Chapman - Individual
Paul Tattersfield - Individual
Petter Rindforth - IPC (co-chair)
Osvaldo Novoa   - ISPCP
Phil Corwin - BC (co-chair)
Mason Cole - RySG
Paul Keating - NCUC

Apologies: none

ICANN staff:
Mary Wong
Steve Chan
Dennis Chang
Berry Cobb
Terri Agnew
Julie Bisland

** Please let me know if your name has been left off the list **

Mailing list archives: http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/

Wiki Agenda page:  https://community.icann.org/x/MtjRAw


Thank you.
Kind regards,
Julie

-------------------------------
Adobe Connect chat transcript for Thursday, 27 April 2017

  Julie Bisland:Welcome to the IGO-INGO Access to Curative Rights Protection Mechanisms Working Group call  on Thursday, 27 April 2017 at 16:00 UTC for 90 minutes

  Julie Bisland:Agenda Wiki page: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_x_MtjRAw&d=DwICaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=QiF-05YzARosRvTYd84AB_UYInlydmFcjNmBM5XgySw&m=PMh9jO0_g_ukxKgG2iZRjvE2lpjjm2deS-26LMqFY6o&s=qpsemGo3DreChhXvd-vF6bL5Bcu79Es15UmGfODVumY&e=

  Terri Agnew:We would like to introduce Julie Bisland as GNSO SO/AC Support coordinator. She has started training with us this week.

  George Kirikos:Hi folks.

  Philip Corwin:dialing in

  Paul Keating:hello  all

  Paul Tattersfield:Hi everyone

  Osvaldo Novoa:Hello all

  Philip Corwin:on audio now

  Julie Bisland:Welcome, Mason Cole

  George Kirikos:Is that mailing list public?

  George Kirikos:(link?)

  Mary Wong:Yes, hold on

  Mary Wong:Here is the mailing list for the Red Cross-IGO Discussion Group, comprising representatives from the GAC, GNSO, Board and facilitator Bruce Tonkin as well as some ICANN support staff: http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/discussion-igo-rc/

  Mary Wong:There is also a wiki page, which staff will update with links to the transcripts from the Copenhagen discussions: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_x_eoPRAw&d=DwICaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=QiF-05YzARosRvTYd84AB_UYInlydmFcjNmBM5XgySw&m=PMh9jO0_g_ukxKgG2iZRjvE2lpjjm2deS-26LMqFY6o&s=WBctajwLoX55IbmBu1CKUfCGJy6WjBQELH1e2_OjVA0&e=

  Paul Keating:THis seems like only a means of delay.

  Mary Wong:@Paul, it is not. I can explain furher.

  Paul Keating:None of those are included within the standing elements of the UDRP

  George Kirikos:That's fine, Phil.

  George Kirikos:(jusy wanted to line up, but Petter can cut in line) :-)

  George Kirikos:*just

  George Kirikos:Since we're *giving* them standing, and relying on the other 2 prongs of the UDRP/URS test to save the domain name registrant, it's not clear to me how the legal expert's opinion could change our report.

  Paul Keating:Mary, can you please pull up our  marching orders as a WG?

  Mary Wong:@George, the problem is that 6ter does not give standing.

  George Kirikos:@Mary: our report is saying it's enough for UDRP/URS standing.

  Mary Wong:@Paul, the charter is here: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_x_77rhAg&d=DwICaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=QiF-05YzARosRvTYd84AB_UYInlydmFcjNmBM5XgySw&m=PMh9jO0_g_ukxKgG2iZRjvE2lpjjm2deS-26LMqFY6o&s=nJ4ptOu25Z8PXNs6BJ0Y9oBapSGHhUyvhPU2io8R9VU&e=

  Mary Wong:@George, yes, but as we heard from the USG and others, it is not a correct application of international law.

  George Kirikos:@Mary: I assume you mean "standing to file a TM lawsuit".

  Mason Cole:OK, thanks Phil.

  George Kirikos:@Mary: if they stick to that interpretation, then there's also no international law that forces those that have no relationship with IGOs into arbitration with them.

  Petter Rindforth:We keep our fingers crossed ;-)

  Mary Wong:@George, no - standing to file under the UDRP if it is not based on trademark law and if Article 6ter cannot be used in its place.

  George Kirikos:i.e. they want us to invent new law to compel arbitration. We're saying "you can use the UDRP, and we'll hold our nose and say "Article 6ter" is close enough for standing"

  Mary Wong:Please, everyone - this is not an idea from the IGOs. It is not an idea raised to delay our work.

  George Kirikos:We're saying Article 6ter is evidence of common law TM rights.

  Mary Wong:@George, again, what we are told is that it is not correct legally to use 6ter that way, whatever we might feel about it.

  George Kirikos:And that then keeps it within the TM world, of the UDRP/URS>

  Mary Wong:@George, if they have unregistered rights similar to TM, 6ter is unnecessary. They would have standing under the existing UDRP rules.

  George Kirikos:@Mary: if they want to rely on the law 100%, then they should point me to the law that says I need to go to binding arbitration if I start selling UNESCO brand cookies, or start a "WHO" health magazine.

  Mary Wong:@George, it's not the IGOs who are proposing this.

  George Kirikos:@Mary: Yes, article 6ter is unnecessary. Their common law rights were enough. i.e. they should have *some* connection with the the term they're saying is similar to the domain name.

  George Kirikos:e.g. if UNESCO wants to file a UDRP over "Math.com", show me they have some connection to the term "math".

  George Kirikos:But, if they want to file over "UNESCO-phishing.tld", they can easily demonstrate a connection to the term "Unesco" in that domain.

  George Kirikos:+1 Paul Keating

  Paul Keating:if we do not put this to bed, then it will continue to live and become a behind the scenes political effort.

  Philip Corwin:Paul, Mason, if you are done speaking please lower your hands. Thanks

  Mary Wong:@Paul, the discussion group was set up with a public mailing list, and with open dialogues in Copenhagen, to make sure it would not be a behind the scenes political effort.

  George Kirikos:The IGOs seem to have a lot of time to participate in that informal mailing list. I see WIPO on the RPMs mailing list. Why couldn't they join our work for the past 3 years?

  Mason Cole:Old hand

  George Kirikos:Common law TMs are good enough, without *registered* TMs.

  Mary Wong:@George, WIPO is an observer to this WG.

  George Kirikos:ICANN should use some of that $200 million+ and get the IGOs to file 100 Benelux or Pakistani registered TMs.

  George Kirikos:It would be a lot cheaper than hiring an external legal expert, and they'd get those TMs in a few months.

  George Kirikos:100 x $200 = $20,000, tops.

 George Kirikos:(and some of the IGOs already have registered TMs)

  George Kirikos:There were "notes" made in a pod during our comments review. Were those notes saved somewhere? (it doesn't seem to have been sent along with the call transcripts)

  George Kirikos:Those notes captured some of what was new, etc.

  George Kirikos:(might need to reload the Adobe archive, if the Adobe connect call was saved)

  Mary Wong:@George, the document Steve mentioned he will upload next reflects those notes in summary form (of topics).

  George Kirikos:Oh, I see. Thanks Mary.

  Mary Wong:No worries :)

  Steve Chan:Here are the comments we reviewed last week: United Nations,Internet Commerce Association, International Atomic Energy Agency, World Bank, UNESCO, Universal Postal Union, International Finance Corporation

  Paul Tattersfield:Would it be helpful to see the working group tool filled out fully before moving on too far.?

  Mary Wong:Thanks, Phil, we will do our best.

  George Kirikos:This goes to the topic we discussed earlier.

  George Kirikos:(re: hiring another legal expert)

  George Kirikos:Saying it's strong evidence, rather than "proof" for the first prong will likely be good enough.

  Paul Tattersfield:+1 Phil

  George Kirikos:Maybe take a poll here?

  George Kirikos:Checkmark if you agree? X to disagree with that change?

  George Kirikos:It's definitely superior to that GAC list, which is not based on any law whatsoever.

  George Kirikos:It establishes a blocking right for TM regisrations in national TM systems.

  Paul Tattersfield:the reason 6ter matters is because it reduces the cost of  providing evidence

  George Kirikos:+1 Paul Tattersfield.

  Mary Wong:@Paul T, sure, but how does it establish standing?

  George Kirikos:GIs are not allowed in the UDRP, for example.

  George Kirikos:(champagne.co example, last night)

  Mary Wong:Having used 6ter doesn't prove an IGO has rights in its acronym, only that it intends to prevent third parties from registering TMs.

  George Kirikos:GIs = Geographical Indicators

  Jay Chapman:Agree, Paul - "evidence" of a tm right

  Paul Tattersfield:Paul K +1

  George Kirikos:Checkmark = dial back to "strong evidence" of common law, X = original proposal, "proof" for standing

  George Kirikos:Maybe David should elaborate?

  George Kirikos:His Twelve Angry Men moment, to convince us. :-)

  George Kirikos:We should allow the mailing list participants to weigh in too, but it sounds like "consensus" on #1.

  George Kirikos:Typically, it would be an unregistered Service Mark for IGOs. (since they don't usually sell goods).

  George Kirikos:Vitiating the UDRP, vs. binding arbitration.

  Mary Wong:Shall we pull up the OECD comment for the three reasons they cite?

  George Kirikos:Most domain name registrant wouldn't voluntarily agree to that entirely separate process suggested by the IGOs.

  Mary Wong:OECD's reasons start at Page 2

  Jay Chapman:the immunity question would be answered by the court

  George Kirikos:+1 Paul Keating. It maintains the status quo, until there's a final decision.

  George Kirikos:(final = non-appealable)

  Paul Keating:My apologies but I must leave the office and call n ow.  Thank you everyone.  Goodnight.

  George Kirikos:We didn't get it wrong. Like the USG stated, it might not even be a "real IGO" --- i.e. it might be an IGO not even recognized in certain nations.

  George Kirikos:If that IGO "isn't real", it couldn't assert immunity. So we got it right.

  George Kirikos:Otherwise, every party will claim that they are an "IGO", to avoid appeals by domain owners. Gaming.

  Jay Chapman:+1 George

  Terri Agnew:Next call: IGO-INGO Access to Curative Rights Protection Mechanisms Working Group call will take place on Thursday, 04 May 2017 at 16:00 UTC for 90 minutes

  George Kirikos:Are we skipping the following week? (due to the GDD)

  George Kirikos:(like we are for the RPMs working group)

  Jay Chapman:have to leave now.  thanks all!

  Mason Cole:Turns out I won't be at GDD so could join.

  George Kirikos:Excellent.

  George Kirikos:We're making progress. Good work everyone!

  Mary Wong:Thanks Phil and everyone!

  George Kirikos:Bye folks.

  Paul Tattersfield:Bye all

  Osvaldo Novoa:By



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