[Gnso-igo-ingo] FOR INFORMATION: Notes on certain points raised during the 17 August call of the reconvened Working Group on Red Cross protections
Stephane Hankins
shankins at icrc.org
Mon Aug 28 14:32:18 UTC 2017
Dear Chuck, dear all,
(1) We can confirm that the rules/prohibitions foreseen under Article 44,
Par. 1 of the first Geneva Convention, as quoted by Jorge below, extend to
both the use of the emblems per se and of the words (or designations or
names) "Red Cross", "Red Crescent" and Red Lion and Sun".
Reference may also be made to
- the subsequent paragraph of Article 44 (Paragraph 2) of the first
Geneva Convention, which confirms the prerogative of National Red Cross
and Red Crescent Societies to make use of the name "Red Cross" ("Red
Crescent", "Red Lion and Sun") for their own activities carried out in
peacetime or in times of armed conflict:
- Article 53 of the same first Geneva Convention which defines
prohibitions on the use of the emblem or the designation "Red Cross" (or
"Geneva Cross" - although as you will realise we did not add this
designation to the list of words or strings to be protected from
registration, as the latter is no longer in use and in order to avoid
extending the list or strings to be reserved).
Without wanting to enter into a debate on semantics, the Oxford Dictionary
defines the nown "designation" as "an official name, description, or
title" - not a design or figurative symbol. The intention of the
Convention and of its drafters was to protect both the emblems (figurative
design or symbols), as well as the words.
(2) We are in the process of compiling extracts from national legislation
confirming:
- the prohibitions on the use of the words and designations in line with
the provisions of the 1949 Geneva Conventions and their Additional
Protocol of 2005 (in addition to the emblems and symbols); as well as
- the entitlement of the respective components of the International Red
Cross and Red Crescent Movement (including the National Red Cross and Red
Crescent Societies) to make use of the words / designations for indicative
(identification) purposes at all times.
Kind regards,
Stéphane
From: <Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>
To: <Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>, <gregshatanipc at gmail.com>,
<consult at cgomes.com>
Cc: gnso-igo-ingo at icann.org
Date: 25.08.2017 22:14
Subject: Re: [Gnso-igo-ingo] FOR INFORMATION: Notes on certain
points raisedduring the 17 August call of the reconvened Working Group
onRed Cross protections
Sent by: gnso-igo-ingo-bounces at icann.org
Well actually the US Criminal Code says " or the words “Red Cross” or
“Geneva Cross” or any combination of these words—"
Jorge
________________________________
Von: Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch <Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>
Datum: 25. August 2017 um 22:12:31 MESZ
An: consult at cgomes.com <consult at cgomes.com>, gregshatanipc at gmail.com
<gregshatanipc at gmail.com>
Cc: gnso-igo-ingo at icann.org <gnso-igo-ingo at icann.org>
Betreff: Re: [Gnso-igo-ingo] FOR INFORMATION: Notes on certain points
raisedduring the 17 August call of the reconvened Working Group onRed
Cross protections
Dear Chuck
It is in the plain language quoted of art. 44: "and the words Red Cross or
Geneva Cross".
Also USC 18 S 706 says "and the words"
or is it sth else you are looking for?
Jorge
________________________________
Von: Chuck <consult at cgomes.com>
Datum: 25. August 2017 um 22:08:16 MESZ
An: gregshatanipc at gmail.com <gregshatanipc at gmail.com>, Cancio Jorge BAKOM
<Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch>
Cc: gnso-igo-ingo at icann.org <gnso-igo-ingo at icann.org>
Betreff: RE: [Gnso-igo-ingo] FOR INFORMATION: Notes on certain points
raisedduring the 17 August call of the reconvened Working Group onRed
Cross protections
Thanks Jorge but please help me see where 'words' are mentioned.
Chuck
-----Original Message-----
From: Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch [mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch]
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2017 1:02 PM
To: consult at cgomes.com; gregshatanipc at gmail.com
Cc: gnso-igo-ingo at icann.org
Subject: Re: [Gnso-igo-ingo] FOR INFORMATION: Notes on certain points
raisedduring the 17 August call of the reconvened Working Group onRed
Cross
protections
Sorry for coming back again, but on page 3 of the ICRC Memo, footnote 2,
article 44 of the first Geneva Convention is quoted wherein the protection
of the "words" themselves is warranted:
2 The first Geneva Convention for the Amelioration of the Condition of the
Wounded and Sick in Armed Forces in the Field of 12 August 1949 provides
equal protection to the emblems of the red cross, red crescent and red
lion
and sun. Article 44 provides that "[...] the emblem of the red cross on a
white ground and the words "Red Cross, or "Geneva Cross" may not be
employed, either in time of peace or in time of war, except to indicate or
to protect the medical units and establishments, the personnel and
material
protected by the present Convention and other Conventions dealing with
similar matters. The same shall apply to the other emblems mentioned in
Article 38, paragraph 2, in respect of the countries that use them [the
red
crescent, the red lion and sun]".
Best
Jorge
________________________________
Von: Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc at gmail.com>
Datum: 25. August 2017 um 20:47:37 MESZ
An: Chuck <consult at cgomes.com>
Cc: gnso-igo-ingo at icann.org <gnso-igo-ingo at icann.org>
Betreff: Re: [Gnso-igo-ingo] FOR INFORMATION: Notes on certain points
raisedduring the 17 August call of the reconvened Working Group onRed
Cross
protections
I believe some have argued that the term "designation" refers to the names
"Red Cross", etc.
However it is significant that Art. 53 of the first Geneva Convention,
quoted by Christopher, refers to "the emblem or the designation " Red
Cross
" or " Geneva Cross "." After some research, it appears fairly clear that
"Geneva Cross" is another name for the "red cross on a white ground"
symbol,
and is NOT used as a name or words referring to the Red Cross
organizations.
In other words, there is no Geneva Cross name.
Thus, it seems to make sense that both "emblem" and "designation" refer to
the symbols and not to the words. This is consistent with Christopher's
explanation as well.
Greg
On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 1:00 PM, Chuck
<consult at cgomes.com<mailto:consult at cgomes.com>> wrote:
Thanks very much Chris. Am I correct then in concluding that
'designation'
is just another form of the emblem (i.e., symbol)? Is there no language
in
any of the treaties or laws that mentions the organization names? If so,
on
what legal basis can we use for protecting the names?
Note that I am not opposed to protecting the names but am just trying to
find a legal basis if there is one.
Chuck
From: christopher.lamb17 at gmail.com<mailto:christopher.lamb17 at gmail.com>
[mailto:christopher.lamb17 at gmail.com<mailto:christopher.lamb17 at gmail.com>]
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2017 9:11 AM
To: Chuck <consult at cgomes.com<mailto:consult at cgomes.com>>; 'Mary Wong'
<mary.wong at icann.org<mailto:mary.wong at icann.org>>;
gnso-igo-ingo at icann.org<mailto:gnso-igo-ingo at icann.org>
Subject: Re: [Gnso-igo-ingo] FOR INFORMATION: Notes on certain points
raisedduring the 17 August call of the reconvened Working Group onRed
Cross
protections
Dear Chuck,
The terms you mention are, for the purposes of the Geneva Conventions,
explained in the first and third paragraphs of Article 53 of the First
Geneva Convention 1949, as follows:
"Art. 53. The use by individuals, societies, firms or companies either
public or private, other than those entitled thereto under the present
Convention, of the emblem or the designation " Red Cross " or " Geneva
Cross
" or any sign or designation constituting an imitation thereof, whatever
the
object of such use, and irrespective of the date of its adoption, shall be
prohibited at all times.
...
Nevertheless, such High Contracting Parties as were not party to the
Geneva
Convention of 27 July 1929, may grant to prior users of the emblems,
designations, signs or marks designated in the first paragraph, a time
limit
not to exceed three years from the coming into force of the present
Convention to discontinue such use provided that the said use shall not be
such as would appear, in time of war, to confer the protection of the
Convention."
So, the designation is the formal name of the emblem, provided for it by
the
treaty. I hope this helps.
Chris
From: Chuck
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2017 23:21
To: 'Mary Wong' ; gnso-igo-ingo at icann.org<mailto:gnso-igo-ingo at icann.org>
Subject: Re: [Gnso-igo-ingo] FOR INFORMATION: Notes on certain points
raisedduring the 17 August call of the reconvened Working Group onRed
Cross
protections
Thanks Mary. I have some questions for the legal experts, especially
those
familiar with terminology used in international treaties.
The following terminology is used repeatedly in the applicable laws:
"distinctive emblems and their designations". I understand 'emblems' to
mean the actual symbols but what do 'designations' mean? In other words,
what is a designation of one of the emblems? One thing that is confusing
to
me is that all the laws/treaties clearly protect the emblems. How do they
apply to the names themselves?
Chuck
From:
gnso-igo-ingo-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-igo-ingo-bounces at icann.org>
[mailto:gnso-igo-ingo-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Mary Wong
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 2:52 PM
To: gnso-igo-ingo at icann.org<mailto:gnso-igo-ingo at icann.org>
Subject: [Gnso-igo-ingo] FOR INFORMATION: Notes on certain points raised
during the 17 August call of the reconvened Working Group on Red Cross
protections
Dear all,
Following from the call last Thursday (17 August), staff has attempted to
put together a summary of the major questions and points (including the
relevant text of the Geneva Conventions cited) that were raised on the
call.
The summary is attached. If you wish to provide comments or raise further
questions, please do so directly in the identical Google Doc version here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VftetlaXmEW1HqNVv3EYQi4x2VtKX6eja0VBizM1
JAc/edit?usp=sharing.
Please note that the summary was intentionally kept as brief as possible,
so
it does not go into detail about the international law basis. This is
further explored in the submissions that were provided by the Red Cross
representatives, and in Annex A of the Briefing Document prepared for the
facilitated discussions that took place at ICANN58 in March this year
(please refer to the wiki page for this Working Group here for the links:
https://community.icann.org/x/-g8hB).
We hope the summary is helpful to your further deliberations.
Thanks and cheers
Mary
From:
<gnso-igo-ingo-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-igo-ingo-bounces at icann.org>>
on
behalf of Julie Bisland
<julie.bisland at icann.org<mailto:julie.bisland at icann.org>>
Date: Thursday, August 17, 2017 at 12:06
To: "gnso-igo-ingo at icann.org<mailto:gnso-igo-ingo at icann.org>"
<gnso-igo-ingo at icann.org<mailto:gnso-igo-ingo at icann.org>>
Cc: "gnso-secs at icann.org<mailto:gnso-secs at icann.org>"
<gnso-secs at icann.org<mailto:gnso-secs at icann.org>>
Subject: [Gnso-igo-ingo] Recordings, Attendance & AC Chat for IGO-INGO
Protections in all gTLDS PDP WG on Red Cross Names on 17 August 2017 at
13:00 UTC
Dear all,
Please find the attendance attached, and the mp3, Adobe Connect recording
and AC Chat below for the reconvened IGO-INGO Protections in all gTLDs PDP
Working Group on Red Cross Names held on Thursday, 17 August 2017 at 13:00
UTC.
Mp3: http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-igo-ingo-17aug17-en.mp3
AC recording:
https://participate.icann.org/p59acngik1a/<
https://participate.icann.org/p59
acngik1a/?OWASP_CSRFTOKEN=92ef84797cbc0a40edc01adc638682d4b8e9db4caddb88df19
39c4dc577b4caa>
The recordings and transcriptions of the calls are posted on the GNSO
Master
Calendar page:
http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar[gnso.icann.org]<
https://u
rldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__gnso.icann.org_en_group-2Dactivit
ies_calendar&d=DwMFAg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=DJ69mA
e-idEhpAMF1nu2x6c2w3xl7xb5cjS_7sB4h6Y&m=gYLy6cwOztaoXKyA01768242GhD7ZveWWPqN
gIU4b-w&s=2r8FnPPkw7aiaErXSNUyXPL0JKwOtSPiUIvd9h6eur0&e=>
Mailing list archive: http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo/
Agenda Wiki page:
https://community.icann.org/x/-g8hB[community.icann.org]<
https://urldefense.
proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_x_-2Dg8hB&d=DwMFAg&c=F
mY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=DJ69mAe-idEhpAMF1nu2x6c2w3xl7xb
5cjS_7sB4h6Y&m=gYLy6cwOztaoXKyA01768242GhD7ZveWWPqNgIU4b-w&s=Rrt3vuqBgVwqEt0
fn8JPv4WnPwYsV3FXJTC3VCs1jyE&e=>
** Please let me know if your name has been left off the list **
Thank you.
Kind regards,
Julie
---------------
Adobe Connect chat transcript for 17 August 2017
Julie Bisland:Welcome to the Reconvened IGO INGO PDP Working Group call
on
Red Cross Names on Thursday, 17 August 2017 at 13:00 UTC.
Julie Bisland:Agenda wiki page:
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_x_-
2Dg8hB&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=QiF-05YzARos
RvTYd84AB_UYInlydmFcjNmBM5XgySw&m=k1wo94sSUbWaoqtfbcQCj5rK4YOaypeUgXO53UhSvC
k&s=I_16BY_qfDXIQ9fNax5rRL2xH8tGd-iAP7ADs611zJI&e=
Julie Bisland:looking for the beeping
Heather Forrest:Beeping noise?
Julie Bisland:Welcome Ken Stubbs :)
Julie Bisland:Welcome Giacomo Mazzone
ken stubbs:who is speaking ?
Heather Forrest:It's not clear to me how protection of "Red Cross", etc
and symbols covers the national society names
ken stubbs:i have a question after ther speakers comments are over.
Thomas Rickert, WG Chair:Noted, Ken!
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):Thanks to Stephane for the explanations!
Greg Shatan:I second Heather's question.
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):Apart from change in the law, there is
also
the possibility that the PDP WG was not fully aware of the legal basis -
as
Thomas is hinting, I feel
Heather Forrest:So back to my earlier chat comment - it's not clear to
me
how the national society names fit here in the Geneva Convention
Greg Shatan:We are still not "fully aware" of the legal basis, if any,
for
this request.
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):I feel that Stephane has explained it
quite
well...
Greg Shatan:no, sorry, he talked around the specific issue, hence the
question.
Chuck Gomes:My understanding is that staff was going to provide the WG
with the legal basis for the national society names. Is that correct? If
not, I think that would be a good action item before our next meeting.
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):As Stephane apparently is not on the adobe
maybe the question could be read aloud and/or circulated in writing
Mary Wong:@Chuck, by circulating the Red Cross' position paper and the
Briefing Document that was used in Copenhagen (which was prepared by staff
and Bruce Tonkin), this group can fully discusss that question. We didn't
feel it's our place (as staff) to draw legal conclusions specifically.
Chuck Gomes:@ Mary: You don't need to draw legal conclusions but you
could
summarize the legal basis for protection of the national names.
ken stubbs:your talking over each other
Mary Wong:@Chuck, understood - but note that the Geneva Conventions and
the Protocols do not specifically mention the National Society names, or
what specific names associaed with the Red Cross are intended by use of
the
terms "emblem" and "designations" therein. Hence, we felt it was for the
WG
- with the assistance of the RC reps - to clarify what, exactly, is the
scope of the law as a result (especially in the DNS).
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):@Mary: could you circulate the
conclusions
of the facilitated dialogue of Copenhagen as well as the relevant Board
Resolution? thanks
Mary Wong:@Jorge, of course - hang on just a moment.
Thomas Rickert, WG Chair:The use by individuals, societies, firms or
companies either public or private, other than those entitled thereto
under
the present Convention, of the emblem or the designation "Red Cross" or
"Geneva Cross", or any sign or designation constituting an imitation
thereof, whatever the object of such use, and irrespective of the date of
its adoption, shall be prohibited at all times.By reason of the tribute
paid
to Switzerland by the adoption of the reversed Federal colours, and of the
confusion which may arise between the arms of Switzerland and the
distinctive emblem of the Convention, the use by private individuals,
societies or firms, of the arms of the Swiss Confederation, or of marks
constituting an imitation thereof, whether as trademarks or commercial
marks, or as parts of such marks, or for a purpose contrary to commercial
honesty, or in circumstances capable of wounding Swiss national sentiment,
shall be prohibited at all times.Nevertheless, such High Contracting
Parties
as were not party to the Geneva
Thomas Rickert, WG Chair:That is the part of the Geneva Convention that
in
my view is relevant for this.
giacomo mazzone:Jorge you mean this: (2) Review of briefing paper from
Copenhagen facilitated discussion
(http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo/2017-July/000046.html)
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):I meant the conclusions drwan by Bruce
Tonkin from the facilitated discussion
Heather Forrest:+1 Greg - it seems to me that the lack of clarity on
legal
basis is exactly why we're here now (to answer Ken's question that started
this discussion)
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):the Board Resolution is here:
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_resources
_board-2Dmaterial_resolutions-2D2017-2D03-2D16-2Den-232.e.i&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u
3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=QiF-05YzARosRvTYd84AB_UYInlydmFcjNm
BM5XgySw&m=k1wo94sSUbWaoqtfbcQCj5rK4YOaypeUgXO53UhSvCk&s=rKKnEHJ1PqpyngYHDII
thQ4ae8EPxlaAFXESSak4X7o&e=
Thomas Rickert, WG Chair:What I pasted here is Article 53
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):Both the Board Resolution and the
conclusions of the facilitated discussion highlighted both the legal basis
and the public policy considerations
Greg Shatan:We don't need an explicit reference to domain names to find
a
legal basis.
Greg Shatan:I thought we were looking at "rights protections." If we are
not talking about legal rights, what kind of rights are we talking about?
Alan Greenberg:We (ICANN and the GNSO) have sufficuent major issues to
look at that we need to get this done quickly and move on.
Greg Shatan:Jorge, can you provide more specific citations, please.
Greg Shatan:Alan, I agree with the concern regarding bandwidth. You and
I
are in many of the same groups. But that doesn't support any particular
conclusion.
Greg Shatan:One could conclude that it takes many pages of verbiage,
because there is no clear and succinct statement that can be made to show
a
basis for the claimed right for which protections are being requested.
Mary Wong:@Jorge, the links to the Board resolution (which you also
posted, thanks) and the GNSO Council resolution have been pasted in the
Notes pod. Bruce's high level summary was in an email to the IGO-RC
discussion group, dated 13 March:
http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/discussion-igo-rc/2017-March/000108.html
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):@Greg: I hope Mary may find the
conclusion/summary of the facilitated dialogue. As for the Board
Resolution
this part is relevant: "(3) In considering the Board's request, the
Council
is requested to duly take into account these factors and the public policy
advice to reserve the finite list of names of the Red Cross and Red
Crescent
National Societies, as recognized within the International Red Cross and
Red
Crescent Movement, in all gTLDs."
Heather Forrest:+1 Chuck - basis in law had significant impacts on the
recommendations of the Reserved Names WG in 2007
Greg Shatan:Jorge, what "factors" is the quoted language referring to?
The
quoted language provides no support for any particular conclusions.
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):@Mary: I feel you found the summary about
IGOs - not the one on ICRC
Mary Wong:@Chuck, @Thomas, I've pasted the factors that the discussion
group, Board and Council considered in the Notes pod.
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):"factors" refers I guess to the preceding
parts of the Resolution, where legal basis and GAC Advice etc. are
mentioned
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):sorry no sound
Greg Shatan:Then I guess that is what we should be looking at, to see
what
they've said about legal basis.
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):audio problems, sorry!
Julie Bisland:would you like our operator to dial out to you?
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):I'm ready I think
Julie Bisland:yes, I see you have your speaker on now. Excellent!
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):the Board Resolution mentions the
following
public policy arguments included in GAC Advice: "and the global public
policy considerations in the protections of the identifiers of the
respective Red Cross and Red Crescent organizations from forms of misuse
in
the domain name system, including from fraud and embezzlement in times of
humanitarian crises."
Greg Shatan:Public policy is not a legal basis.
Mary Wong:@Jorge, my apologies (re the wrong message from Bruce). I
cannot
at the moment find a summary of the Red Cross discussion but will resume
looking after this call.
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):@Mary: maybe the summary took the form of
the proposed Board language?
Greg Shatan:Where does the Geneva Convention mention the names of the
national societies? (Not individually but as a class of "strings").
Mary Wong:@Greg, I believe there is mention in Article 44.
Chuck Gomes:Am I the only one that would like us to use a systematic
approach to deliberate on the questions we are tasked with answering? We
seem to continue to talk about all questions together, which in my opinion
makes it difficult to make progress. Why not focus on one charter
question
at a time, discuss whether the three Council criteria are satisfied and if
not discuss whether there is a reasoable basis for making an exception?
Alan Greenberg:Red Cross fraud is a bad thing, but protecting the
country
names will d onothing to protect against such fraud. We cannot stop
similar
names from being registered and we cannot protect against words such as
tsumani or flod. SO let's not confuse the rationale.
Greg Shatan:Chuck, I think that would be a very helpful and appropriate
approach.
Mary Wong:@Chuck, @Greg, our (staff) assumption was that the group is
already on the question of "what is the reasonable basis" (e.g. law and/or
public policy), as the Council's (and Board's) list of factors/criteria
have
already defined the scope for the group.
Chuck Gomes:On which charter question Mary?
Greg Shatan:I'm not asking for perfection. Just a reasonable and
objective legal basis.
Mary Wong:@Chuck, on the specific request to possibly amend the PDP
recommendation concerning the names of the Red Cross National Societies
and
the two International Movement names., plus a limited, defined set of
variants.
Chuck Gomes:What charter question are we discussing now?
Greg Shatan:Mary, where in Article 44? I'm looking at Art 44 and not
seeing it.
Mary Wong:@Chuck, all - the charter (scope) for this group was outlined
in
the Council resolution i.e. amend the original PDP recomemndation
regarding
the national society names, the two international movement names, and the
agreed limited variant list.
Greg Shatan:Art 44 is entitled "Combatants and prisoners of war."
giacomo mazzone:I agree with what Jorge just said. it's a matter of
public
policy mainly (legal aspects are important but are a plus). aim of the
group
is to identify what's the best way to ensure this protection with the
minimum of hurdles.
Mary Wong:@Greg, it is Article 44 of the First Geneva Convention 1949, I
believe.
Mary
Wong:
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl.nsf/Article.xsp?action=op
enDocument&documentId=5CCB6DD2AB618FABC12563CD0051A251
Jennifer Breckenridge:GC Convention 1- ARTICLE 44 With the exception of
the cases mentioned in the following paragraphs of the present Article,
the
emblem of the Red Cross on a white ground and the words "Red Cross", or
"Geneva Cross" may not be employed, either in time of peace or in time of
war, except to indicate or to protect the medical units and
establishments,
the personnel and material protected by the present Convention and other
Conventions dealing with similar matters. The same shall apply to the
emblems mentioned in Article 38, second paragraph [ Link ] , in respect of
the countries which use them. The National Red Cross Societies and other
Societies designated in Article 26 [ Link ] shall have the right to use
the
distinctive emblem conferring the protection of the Convention only within
the framework of the present paragraph. Furthermore, National Red Cross
(Red
Crescent, Red Lion and Sun) Societies may, in time of peace, in accordance
with their national legislation, make use of the name and emblem of the
Red
Cros
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):I feel the document really is clear
enough,
when the purpose is to understand
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):question tp Greg: have you read the
44-pager?
Chuck Gomes:The language is not at all clear to me.
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):@Chuck: of course, it is legal language
Jennifer Breckenridge:continued.....for their other activities which are
in conformity with the principles laid down by the International Red Cross
Conferences. When those activities are carried out in time of war, the
conditions for the use of the emblem shall be such that it cannot be
considered as conferring the protection of the Convention; the emblem
shall
be comparatively small in size and may not be placed on armlets or on the
roofs of buildings.The international Red Cross organizations and their
duly
authorized personnel shall be permitted to make use, at all times, of the
emblem of the Red Cross on a white ground.As an exceptional measure, in
conformity with national legislation and with the express permission of
one
of the National Red Cross (Red Crescent, Red Lion and Sun) Societies, the
emblem of the Convention may be employed in time of peace to identify
vehicles used as ambulances and to mark the position of aid stations
exclusively assigned to the purpose of giving free treatment to the
wounded
or sick.
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):I feel the burden is on who is making
questions and to refer to the 44-doc
Mary Wong:All, will it help for staff to recirculate the provisions that
Jennifer and Stephane cited/quoted, as well as Jennifer's statement on
thsi
call?
Greg Shatan:The burden of proof is always on those trying to prove
something.
Chuck Gomes:Legal language can be clear and often is. This legal
language
is not. The explanations given may be valid but without them I never
would
have concluded that the national names need to be protected. All that
seems
clear is that they can use the emblems.
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):well, they have in my view... with 44
pages...
Greg Shatan:Your view is not in doubt, Jorge.
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):when you make such an effort, the minimum
is to be specific in the follow-up questions
Greg Shatan:A for Effort, perhaps, but not an A for clarity.
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):I was a bit unsure about whether all had
read it, as comments were being made to a completely unrelated provision
of
the Conventions...
Greg Shatan:Having heard what has been said here, one can now form some
more specific questions.
Greg Shatan:Jorge, blame Google for pulling up the wrong Geneva
Convention
Art. 44.
Jennifer Breckenridge:sorry its long and keeps cutting off the end of
the
clause...
Mary Wong:@Jennifer, I put the link to the specific Article in the chat
above. This entire chat will also be saved and circulatd to the list.
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):@Greg: I'll agree on that ;P
Greg Shatan:If we can avoid 1300-1400 UTC we can avoid overlap with
CCWG.
giacomo mazzone:who shall prepare the summary requested for point 2 ? it
was not clear tome ...
Julie Bisland:I'll send out an email invite shortly, for 7 September
2017
at 14 :00 UTC
Mary Wong:@Giacomo, staff will work with Thomas to follow up on the
requests made on this call.
Heather Forrest:just noting that 1400 utc is 00:00 for parts of APAC
giacomo mazzone:thank Mary, could you circulate in advance to avoid that
discussion endless will go on during the call
Mary Wong:@Giacomo, yes, we will circulate to the list.
Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):thanks Thomas, all and regards
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