[Gnso-igo-ingo] FOR INFORMATION: Notes on certain pointsraisedduring the 17 August call of the reconvened WorkingGroup onRed Cross protections

Sun Sep 3 23:18:38 UTC 2017

Dear Chuck and everyone,

In addition to the information from Christopher, we understand that the Red Cross representatives may be preparing an updated list of the protections that the Red Cross names currently under discussion may be entitled to under various national laws. In the meantime, Working Group members may find helpful the initial research that ICANN Legal performed, as part of the work of the original PDP Working Group, relating to the protection of the terms associated with the Red Cross, International Olympic Committee and IGOs: see Annex 5 of the Final Report - https://gnso.icann.org/en/issues/igo-ingo-final-10nov13-en.pdf (please note that the research was limited to answering a specific question that was posed at the time by the Working Group, as reflected in the introductory text to this Annex).

Working Group members may also find helpful the current, interim list of reserved names of the Red Cross National Societies: https://www.icann.org/sites/default/files/packages/reserved-names/ReservedNames.xml#red-cross-international. Please note that, as part of the current scope of work for this group, the GNSO Council has expressly requested that the group consider the specific names of the 190 Red Cross National Societies as well as a specific, limited set of variants of those names. As you may recall, the Red Cross representatives have kindly offered to work with ICANN and the Working Group to develop and agree on the final list of names and variants, if and when appropriate.

Thanks and cheers
Mary 

On 9/3/17, 10:19, "gnso-igo-ingo-bounces at icann.org on behalf of Chuck" <gnso-igo-ingo-bounces at icann.org on behalf of consult at cgomes.com> wrote:

    Thanks Chris.

    Chuck

    -----Original Message-----
    From: christopher.lamb17 at gmail.com [mailto:christopher.lamb17 at gmail.com] 
    Sent: Sunday, September 3, 2017 1:47 AM
    To: Chuck <consult at cgomes.com>; Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch;
    gregshatanipc at gmail.com
    Cc: gnso-igo-ingo at icann.org
    Subject: Re: [Gnso-igo-ingo] FOR INFORMATION: Notes on certain
    pointsraisedduring the 17 August call of the reconvened WorkingGroup onRed
    Cross protections

    Dear Chuck,

    On the words and national names: Yes, with a very few exceptions.

    To your other question about other jurisdictions, also Yes although some
    have also expanded the language to incorporate the Red Crystal adopted from
    the 2005 Third Protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions.  Please note
    though that some jurisdictions and legal systems don't require domestic
    legislation because the treaty language automatically becomes part of
    domestic law by virtue of becoming a party to the treaty.

    Chris

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Chuck
    Sent: Sunday, September 3, 2017 09:51
    To: Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch ; gregshatanipc at gmail.com
    Cc: gnso-igo-ingo at icann.org
    Subject: Re: [Gnso-igo-ingo] FOR INFORMATION: Notes on certain
    pointsraisedduring the 17 August call of the reconvened WorkingGroup onRed
    Cross protections

    Do all of the national names under consideration contain the words
    themselves?

    Chuck

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch [mailto:Jorge.Cancio at bakom.admin.ch]
    Sent: Friday, August 25, 2017 1:02 PM
    To: consult at cgomes.com; gregshatanipc at gmail.com
    Cc: gnso-igo-ingo at icann.org
    Subject: Re: [Gnso-igo-ingo] FOR INFORMATION: Notes on certain points
    raisedduring the 17 August call of the reconvened Working Group onRed Cross
    protections

    Sorry for coming back again, but on page 3 of the ICRC Memo, footnote 2,
    article 44 of the first Geneva Convention is quoted wherein the protection
    of the "words" themselves is warranted:

    2 The first Geneva Convention for the Amelioration of the Condition of the
    Wounded and Sick in Armed Forces in the Field of 12 August 1949 provides
    equal protection to the emblems of the red cross, red crescent and red lion
    and sun. Article 44 provides that "[...] the emblem of the red cross on a
    white ground and the words "Red Cross, or "Geneva Cross" may not be
    employed, either in time of peace or in time of war, except to indicate or
    to protect the medical units and establishments, the personnel and material
    protected by the present Convention and other Conventions dealing with
    similar matters. The same shall apply to the other emblems mentioned in
    Article 38, paragraph 2, in respect of the countries that use them [the red
    crescent, the red lion and sun]".

    Best

    Jorge

    ________________________________

    Von: Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc at gmail.com>
    Datum: 25. August 2017 um 20:47:37 MESZ
    An: Chuck <consult at cgomes.com>
    Cc: gnso-igo-ingo at icann.org <gnso-igo-ingo at icann.org>
    Betreff: Re: [Gnso-igo-ingo] FOR INFORMATION: Notes on certain points
    raisedduring the 17 August call of the reconvened Working Group onRed Cross
    protections

    I believe some have argued that the term "designation" refers to the names
    "Red Cross", etc.

    However it is significant that Art. 53 of the first Geneva Convention,
    quoted by Christopher, refers to "the emblem or the designation " Red Cross
    " or " Geneva Cross "."  After some research, it appears fairly clear that
    "Geneva Cross" is another name for the "red cross on a white ground" symbol,
    and is NOT used as a name or words referring to the Red Cross organizations.
    In other words, there is no Geneva Cross name.

    Thus, it seems to make sense that both "emblem" and "designation" refer to
    the symbols and not to the words.  This is consistent with Christopher's
    explanation as well.

    Greg

    On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 1:00 PM, Chuck
    <consult at cgomes.com<mailto:consult at cgomes.com>> wrote:
    Thanks very much Chris.  Am I correct then in concluding that 'designation'
    is just another form of the emblem (i.e., symbol)?  Is there no language in
    any of the treaties or laws that mentions the organization names?  If so, on
    what legal basis can we use for protecting the names?

    Note that I am not opposed to protecting the names but am just trying to
    find a legal basis if there is one.

    Chuck

    From: christopher.lamb17 at gmail.com<mailto:christopher.lamb17 at gmail.com>
    [mailto:christopher.lamb17 at gmail.com<mailto:christopher.lamb17 at gmail.com>]
    Sent: Friday, August 25, 2017 9:11 AM
    To: Chuck <consult at cgomes.com<mailto:consult at cgomes.com>>; 'Mary Wong'
    <mary.wong at icann.org<mailto:mary.wong at icann.org>>;
    gnso-igo-ingo at icann.org<mailto:gnso-igo-ingo at icann.org>

    Subject: Re: [Gnso-igo-ingo] FOR INFORMATION: Notes on certain points
    raisedduring the 17 August call of the reconvened Working Group onRed Cross
    protections

    Dear Chuck,

    The terms you mention are, for the purposes of the Geneva Conventions,
    explained in the first and third paragraphs of Article 53 of the First
    Geneva Convention 1949, as follows:

    "Art. 53. The use by individuals, societies, firms or companies either
    public or private, other than those entitled thereto under the present
    Convention, of the emblem or the designation " Red Cross " or " Geneva Cross
    " or any sign or designation constituting an imitation thereof, whatever the
    object of such use, and irrespective of the date of its adoption, shall be
    prohibited at all times.
    ...

    Nevertheless, such High Contracting Parties as were not party to the Geneva
    Convention of 27 July 1929, may grant to prior users of the emblems,
    designations, signs or marks designated in the first paragraph, a time limit
    not to exceed three years from the coming into force of the present
    Convention to discontinue such use provided that the said use shall not be
    such as would appear, in time of war, to confer the protection of the
    Convention."

    So, the designation is the formal name of the emblem, provided for it by the
    treaty.  I hope this helps.

    Chris

    From: Chuck
    Sent: Friday, August 25, 2017 23:21
    To: 'Mary Wong' ; gnso-igo-ingo at icann.org<mailto:gnso-igo-ingo at icann.org>
    Subject: Re: [Gnso-igo-ingo] FOR INFORMATION: Notes on certain points
    raisedduring the 17 August call of the reconvened Working Group onRed Cross
    protections

    Thanks Mary.  I have some questions for the legal experts, especially those
    familiar with terminology used in international treaties.

    The following terminology is used repeatedly in the applicable laws:
    "distinctive emblems and their designations".  I understand 'emblems' to
    mean the actual symbols but what do 'designations' mean?  In other words,
    what is a designation of one of the emblems?  One thing that is confusing to
    me is that all the laws/treaties clearly protect the emblems.  How do they
    apply to the names themselves?

    Chuck

    From:
    gnso-igo-ingo-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-igo-ingo-bounces at icann.org>
    [mailto:gnso-igo-ingo-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Mary Wong
    Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 2:52 PM
    To: gnso-igo-ingo at icann.org<mailto:gnso-igo-ingo at icann.org>
    Subject: [Gnso-igo-ingo] FOR INFORMATION: Notes on certain points raised
    during the 17 August call of the reconvened Working Group on Red Cross
    protections

    Dear all,

    Following from the call last Thursday (17 August), staff has attempted to
    put together a summary of the major questions and points (including the
    relevant text of the Geneva Conventions cited) that were raised on the call.
    The summary is attached. If you wish to provide comments or raise further
    questions, please do so directly in the identical Google Doc version here:
    https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__docs.google.com_document_d_1VftetlaXmEW1HqNVv3EYQi4x2VtKX6eja0VBizM1&d=DwICAg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=DJ69mAe-idEhpAMF1nu2x6c2w3xl7xb5cjS_7sB4h6Y&m=Ac0z_YFk26p6OyWXhsEAM1ULq9ur1HRTLd5FTx0lpkw&s=j9d4KwyVuZ2HSG9QxHaTXPJRR2OS6GuPqcqtlkYgRuY&e= 
    JAc/edit?usp=sharing.

    Please note that the summary was intentionally kept as brief as possible, so
    it does not go into detail about the international law basis. This is
    further explored in the submissions that were provided by the Red Cross
    representatives, and in Annex A of the Briefing Document prepared for the
    facilitated discussions that took place at ICANN58 in March this year
    (please refer to the wiki page for this Working Group here for the links:
    https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_x_-2Dg8hB&d=DwICAg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=DJ69mAe-idEhpAMF1nu2x6c2w3xl7xb5cjS_7sB4h6Y&m=Ac0z_YFk26p6OyWXhsEAM1ULq9ur1HRTLd5FTx0lpkw&s=VZq1XxczdahnqIlmeTAMxOQVdOGb_lnLM3dclYyUCFw&e= ).

    We hope the summary is helpful to your further deliberations.

    Thanks and cheers
    Mary

    From:
    <gnso-igo-ingo-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-igo-ingo-bounces at icann.org>> on
    behalf of Julie Bisland
    <julie.bisland at icann.org<mailto:julie.bisland at icann.org>>
    Date: Thursday, August 17, 2017 at 12:06
    To: "gnso-igo-ingo at icann.org<mailto:gnso-igo-ingo at icann.org>"
    <gnso-igo-ingo at icann.org<mailto:gnso-igo-ingo at icann.org>>
    Cc: "gnso-secs at icann.org<mailto:gnso-secs at icann.org>"
    <gnso-secs at icann.org<mailto:gnso-secs at icann.org>>
    Subject: [Gnso-igo-ingo] Recordings, Attendance & AC Chat for IGO-INGO
    Protections in all gTLDS PDP WG on Red Cross Names on 17 August 2017 at
    13:00 UTC

    Dear all,

    Please find the attendance attached, and the mp3, Adobe Connect recording
    and AC Chat below for the reconvened IGO-INGO Protections in all gTLDs PDP
    Working Group on Red Cross Names held on Thursday, 17 August 2017 at 13:00
    UTC.

    Mp3:   https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__audio.icann.org_gnso_gnso-2Digo-2Dingo-2D17aug17-2Den.mp3&d=DwICAg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=DJ69mAe-idEhpAMF1nu2x6c2w3xl7xb5cjS_7sB4h6Y&m=Ac0z_YFk26p6OyWXhsEAM1ULq9ur1HRTLd5FTx0lpkw&s=69IVW_fGwSa0dUvjgj-6h4n3NJRQC2LRq5-TSrgOEUs&e= 

    AC recording:
    https://participate.icann.org/p59acngik1a/<https://participate.icann.org/p59acngik1a/?OWASP_CSRFTOKEN=92ef84797cbc0a40edc01adc638682d4b8e9db4caddb88df1939c4dc577b4caa>

    The recordings and transcriptions of the calls are posted on the GNSO Master
    Calendar page:
    https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__gnso.icann.org_en_group-2Dactivities_calendar-5Bgnso.icann.org-5D&d=DwICAg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=DJ69mAe-idEhpAMF1nu2x6c2w3xl7xb5cjS_7sB4h6Y&m=Ac0z_YFk26p6OyWXhsEAM1ULq9ur1HRTLd5FTx0lpkw&s=l21lRZlUAC_GH20U_bQPxALU6OHkvgQBuFWMXcp-_-Y&e= <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__gnso.icann.org_en_group-2Dactivities_calendar&d=DwMFAg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=DJ69mAe-idEhpAMF1nu2x6c2w3xl7xb5cjS_7sB4h6Y&m=gYLy6cwOztaoXKyA01768242GhD7ZveWWPqNgIU4b-w&s=2r8FnPPkw7aiaErXSNUyXPL0JKwOtSPiUIvd9h6eur0&e=>

    Mailing list archive: http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo/

    Agenda Wiki page:
    https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_x_-2Dg8hB-5Bcommunity.icann.org-5D&d=DwICAg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=DJ69mAe-idEhpAMF1nu2x6c2w3xl7xb5cjS_7sB4h6Y&m=Ac0z_YFk26p6OyWXhsEAM1ULq9ur1HRTLd5FTx0lpkw&s=Pr-qm6Xnqk5KgkznMUCeMkMxoSsl0tnb2uAisJurX2w&e= <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_x_-2Dg8hB&d=DwMFAg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=DJ69mAe-idEhpAMF1nu2x6c2w3xl7xb5cjS_7sB4h6Y&m=gYLy6cwOztaoXKyA01768242GhD7ZveWWPqNgIU4b-w&s=Rrt3vuqBgVwqEt0fn8JPv4WnPwYsV3FXJTC3VCs1jyE&e=>

    ** Please let me know if your name has been left off the list **

    Thank you.

    Kind regards,

    Julie

    ---------------

    Adobe Connect chat transcript for 17 August 2017

      Julie Bisland:Welcome to the Reconvened IGO INGO PDP Working Group call on
    Red Cross Names on Thursday, 17 August 2017 at 13:00 UTC.

      Julie Bisland:Agenda wiki page:
    https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_x_-
    2Dg8hB&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=QiF-05YzARos
    RvTYd84AB_UYInlydmFcjNmBM5XgySw&m=k1wo94sSUbWaoqtfbcQCj5rK4YOaypeUgXO53UhSvC
    k&s=I_16BY_qfDXIQ9fNax5rRL2xH8tGd-iAP7ADs611zJI&e=

      Julie Bisland:looking  for the beeping

      Heather Forrest:Beeping noise?

      Julie Bisland:Welcome Ken Stubbs :)

      Julie Bisland:Welcome Giacomo Mazzone

      ken stubbs:who is speaking ?

      Heather Forrest:It's not clear to me how protection of "Red Cross", etc
    and symbols covers the national society names

      ken stubbs:i have a question after ther speakers comments are over.

      Thomas Rickert, WG Chair:Noted, Ken!

      Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):Thanks to Stephane for the explanations!

      Greg Shatan:I second Heather's question.

      Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):Apart from change in the law, there is also
    the possibility that the PDP WG was not fully aware of the legal basis - as
    Thomas is hinting, I feel

      Heather Forrest:So back to my earlier chat comment - it's not clear to me
    how the national society names fit here in the Geneva Convention

      Greg Shatan:We are still not "fully aware" of the legal basis, if any, for
    this request.

      Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):I feel that Stephane has explained it quite
    well...

      Greg Shatan:no, sorry, he talked around the specific issue, hence the
    question.

      Chuck Gomes:My understanding is that staff was going to provide the WG
    with the legal basis for the national society names.  Is that correct?  If
    not, I think that would be a good action item before our next meeting.

    Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):As Stephane apparently is not on the adobe
    maybe the question could be read aloud and/or circulated in writing

      Mary Wong:@Chuck, by circulating the Red Cross' position paper and the
    Briefing Document that was used in Copenhagen (which was prepared by staff
    and Bruce Tonkin), this group can fully discusss that question. We didn't
    feel it's our place (as staff) to draw legal conclusions specifically.

      Chuck Gomes:@ Mary: You don't need to draw legal conclusions but you could
    summarize the legal basis for protection of the national names.

      ken stubbs:your talking over each other

      Mary Wong:@Chuck, understood - but note that the Geneva Conventions and
    the Protocols do not specifically mention the National Society names, or
    what specific names associaed with the Red Cross are intended by use of the
    terms "emblem" and "designations" therein. Hence, we felt it was for the WG
    - with the assistance of the RC reps - to clarify what, exactly, is the
    scope of the law as a result (especially in the DNS).

      Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):@Mary: could you circulate the conclusions
    of the facilitated dialogue of Copenhagen as well as the relevant Board
    Resolution? thanks

      Mary Wong:@Jorge, of course - hang on just a moment.

      Thomas Rickert, WG Chair:The use by individuals, societies, firms or
    companies either public or private, other than those entitled thereto under
    the present Convention, of the emblem or the designation "Red Cross" or
    "Geneva Cross", or any sign or designation constituting an imitation
    thereof, whatever the object of such use, and irrespective of the date of
    its adoption, shall be prohibited at all times.By reason of the tribute paid
    to Switzerland by the adoption of the reversed Federal colours, and of the
    confusion which may arise between the arms of Switzerland and the
    distinctive emblem of the Convention, the use by private individuals,
    societies or firms, of the arms of the Swiss Confederation, or of marks
    constituting an imitation thereof, whether as trademarks or commercial
    marks, or as parts of such marks, or for a purpose contrary to commercial
    honesty, or in circumstances capable of wounding Swiss national sentiment,
    shall be prohibited at all times.Nevertheless, such High Contracting Parties
    as were not party to the Geneva

      Thomas Rickert, WG Chair:That is the part of the Geneva Convention that in
    my view is relevant for this.

      giacomo mazzone:Jorge you mean this: (2) Review of briefing paper from
    Copenhagen facilitated discussion
    (http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo/2017-July/000046.html)

      Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):I meant the conclusions drwan by Bruce
    Tonkin from the facilitated discussion

      Heather Forrest:+1 Greg - it seems to me that the lack of clarity on legal
    basis is exactly why we're here now (to answer Ken's question that started
    this discussion)

      Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):the Board Resolution is here:
    https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_resources
    _board-2Dmaterial_resolutions-2D2017-2D03-2D16-2Den-232.e.i&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u
    3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=QiF-05YzARosRvTYd84AB_UYInlydmFcjNm
    BM5XgySw&m=k1wo94sSUbWaoqtfbcQCj5rK4YOaypeUgXO53UhSvCk&s=rKKnEHJ1PqpyngYHDII
    thQ4ae8EPxlaAFXESSak4X7o&e=

      Thomas Rickert, WG Chair:What I pasted here is Article 53

      Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):Both the Board Resolution and the
    conclusions of the facilitated discussion highlighted both the legal basis
    and the public policy considerations

      Greg Shatan:We don't need an explicit reference to domain names to find a
    legal basis.

      Greg Shatan:I thought we were looking at "rights protections." If we are
    not talking about legal rights, what kind of rights are we talking about?

      Alan Greenberg:We (ICANN and the GNSO) have sufficuent major issues to
    look at that we need to get this done quickly and move on.

      Greg Shatan:Jorge, can you provide more specific citations, please.

      Greg Shatan:Alan, I agree with the concern regarding bandwidth. You and I
    are in many of the same groups.  But that doesn't support any particular
    conclusion.

      Greg Shatan:One could conclude that it takes many pages of verbiage,
    because there is no clear and succinct statement that can be made to show a
    basis for the claimed right for which protections are being requested.

      Mary Wong:@Jorge, the links to the Board resolution (which you also
    posted, thanks) and the GNSO Council resolution have been pasted in the
    Notes pod. Bruce's high level summary was in an email to the IGO-RC
    discussion group, dated 13 March:
    http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/discussion-igo-rc/2017-March/000108.html

      Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):@Greg: I hope Mary may find the
    conclusion/summary of the facilitated dialogue. As for the Board Resolution
    this part is relevant: "(3) In considering the Board's request, the Council
    is requested to duly take into account these factors and the public policy
    advice to reserve the finite list of names of the Red Cross and Red Crescent
    National Societies, as recognized within the International Red Cross and Red
    Crescent Movement, in all gTLDs."

      Heather Forrest:+1 Chuck - basis in law had significant impacts on the
    recommendations of the Reserved Names WG in 2007

      Greg Shatan:Jorge, what "factors" is the quoted language referring to? The
    quoted language provides no support for any particular conclusions.

      Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):@Mary: I feel you found the summary about
    IGOs - not the one on ICRC

      Mary Wong:@Chuck, @Thomas, I've pasted the factors that the discussion
    group, Board and Council considered in the Notes pod.

      Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):"factors" refers I guess to the preceding
    parts of the Resolution, where legal basis and GAC Advice etc. are mentioned

      Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):sorry no sound

      Greg Shatan:Then I guess that is what we should be looking at, to see what
    they've said about legal basis.

      Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):audio problems, sorry!

      Julie Bisland:would you like our operator to dial out to you?

      Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):I'm ready I think

      Julie Bisland:yes, I see you have your speaker on now. Excellent!

      Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):the Board Resolution mentions the following
    public policy arguments included in GAC Advice: "and the global public
    policy considerations in the protections of the identifiers of the
    respective Red Cross and Red Crescent organizations from forms of misuse in
    the domain name system, including from fraud and embezzlement in times of
    humanitarian crises."

      Greg Shatan:Public policy is not a legal basis.

      Mary Wong:@Jorge, my apologies (re the wrong message from Bruce). I cannot
    at the moment find a summary of the Red Cross discussion but will resume
    looking after this call.

      Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):@Mary: maybe the summary took the form of
    the proposed Board language?

      Greg Shatan:Where does the Geneva Convention mention the names of the
    national societies? (Not individually but as a class of "strings").

      Mary Wong:@Greg, I believe there is mention in Article 44.

      Chuck Gomes:Am I the only one that would like us to use a systematic
    approach to deliberate on the questions we are tasked with answering?  We
    seem to continue to talk about all questions together, which in my opinion
    makes it difficult to make progress.  Why not focus on one charter question
    at a time, discuss whether the three Council criteria are satisfied and if
    not discuss whether there is a reasoable basis for making an exception?

      Alan Greenberg:Red Cross fraud is a bad thing, but protecting the country
    names will d onothing to protect against such fraud. We cannot stop similar
    names from being registered and we cannot protect against words such as
    tsumani or flod. SO let's not confuse the rationale.

      Greg Shatan:Chuck, I think that would be a very helpful and appropriate
    approach.

      Mary Wong:@Chuck, @Greg, our (staff) assumption was that the group is
    already on the question of "what is the reasonable basis" (e.g. law and/or
    public policy), as the Council's (and Board's) list of factors/criteria have
    already defined the scope for the group.

      Chuck Gomes:On which charter question Mary?

      Greg Shatan:I'm not asking for perfection.  Just a reasonable and
    objective legal basis.

      Mary Wong:@Chuck, on the specific request to possibly amend the PDP
    recommendation concerning the names of the Red Cross National Societies and
    the two International Movement names., plus a limited, defined set of
    variants.

      Chuck Gomes:What charter question are we discussing now?

      Greg Shatan:Mary, where in Article 44? I'm looking at Art 44 and not
    seeing it.

      Mary Wong:@Chuck, all - the charter (scope) for this group was outlined in
    the Council resolution i.e. amend the original PDP recomemndation regarding
    the national society names, the two international movement names, and the
    agreed limited variant list.

      Greg Shatan:Art 44 is entitled "Combatants and prisoners of war."

      giacomo mazzone:I agree with what Jorge just said. it's a matter of public
    policy mainly (legal aspects are important but are a plus). aim of the group
    is to identify what's the best way to ensure this protection with the
    minimum of hurdles.

      Mary Wong:@Greg, it is Article 44 of the First Geneva Convention 1949, I
    believe.

      Mary
    Wong:https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl.nsf/Article.xsp?action=op
    enDocument&documentId=5CCB6DD2AB618FABC12563CD0051A251

      Jennifer Breckenridge:GC Convention 1- ARTICLE 44  With the exception of
    the cases mentioned in the following paragraphs of the present Article, the
    emblem of the Red Cross on a white ground and the words "Red Cross", or
    "Geneva Cross" may not be employed, either in time of peace or in time of
    war, except to indicate or to protect the medical units and establishments,
    the personnel and material protected by the present Convention and other
    Conventions dealing with similar matters. The same shall apply to the
    emblems mentioned in Article 38, second paragraph [ Link ] , in respect of
    the countries which use them. The National Red Cross Societies and other
    Societies designated in Article 26 [ Link ]  shall have the right to use the
    distinctive emblem conferring the protection of the Convention only within
    the framework of the present paragraph. Furthermore, National Red Cross (Red
    Crescent, Red Lion and Sun) Societies may, in time of peace, in accordance
    with their national legislation, make use of the name and emblem of the Red
    Cros

      Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):I feel the document really is clear enough,
    when the purpose is to understand

      Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):question tp Greg: have you read the
    44-pager?

      Chuck Gomes:The language is not at all clear to me.

      Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):@Chuck: of course, it is legal language

      Jennifer Breckenridge:continued.....for their other activities which are
    in conformity with the principles laid down by the International Red Cross
    Conferences. When those activities are carried out in time of war, the
    conditions for the use of the emblem shall be such that it cannot be
    considered as conferring the protection of the Convention; the emblem shall
    be comparatively small in size and may not be placed on armlets or on the
    roofs of buildings.The international Red Cross organizations and their duly
    authorized personnel shall be permitted to make use, at all times, of the
    emblem of the Red Cross on a white ground.As an exceptional measure, in
    conformity with national legislation and with the express permission of one
    of the National Red Cross (Red Crescent, Red Lion and Sun) Societies, the
    emblem of the Convention may be employed in time of peace to identify
    vehicles used as ambulances and to mark the position of aid stations
    exclusively assigned to the purpose of giving free treatment to the wounded
    or sick.

      Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):I feel the burden is on who is making
    questions and to refer to the 44-doc

      Mary Wong:All, will it help for staff to recirculate the provisions that
    Jennifer and Stephane cited/quoted, as well as Jennifer's statement on thsi
    call?

      Greg Shatan:The burden of proof is always on those trying to prove
    something.

      Chuck Gomes:Legal language can be clear and often is.  This legal language
    is not.  The explanations given may be valid but without them I never would
    have concluded that the national names need to be protected.  All that seems
    clear is that they can use the emblems.

      Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):well, they have in my view... with 44
    pages...

      Greg Shatan:Your view is not in doubt, Jorge.

      Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):when you make such an effort, the minimum
    is to be specific in the follow-up questions

      Greg Shatan:A for Effort, perhaps, but not an A for clarity.

      Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):I was a bit unsure about whether all had
    read it, as comments were being made to a completely unrelated provision of
    the Conventions...

      Greg Shatan:Having heard what has been said here, one can now form some
    more specific questions.

      Greg Shatan:Jorge, blame Google for pulling up the wrong Geneva Convention
    Art. 44.

      Jennifer Breckenridge:sorry its long and keeps cutting off the end of the
    clause...

      Mary Wong:@Jennifer, I put the link to the specific Article in the chat
    above. This entire chat will also be saved and circulatd to the list.

    Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):@Greg: I'll agree on that ;P

      Greg Shatan:If we can avoid 1300-1400 UTC we can avoid overlap with CCWG.

      giacomo mazzone:who shall prepare the summary requested for point 2 ? it
    was not clear tome ...

      Julie Bisland:I'll send out an email invite shortly, for 7 September 2017
    at 14 :00 UTC

      Mary Wong:@Giacomo, staff will work with Thomas to follow up on the
    requests made on this call.

      Heather Forrest:just noting that 1400 utc is 00:00 for parts of APAC

      giacomo mazzone:thank Mary, could you circulate in advance to avoid that
    discussion endless will go on during the call

      Mary Wong:@Giacomo, yes, we will circulate to the list.

      Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):thanks Thomas, all and regards

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