From mike at haven2.com Mon Dec 2 17:06:32 2013 From: mike at haven2.com (Mike O'Connor) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 11:06:32 -0600 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP Message-ID: <60AF9317-EEBB-4BE5-A4BB-2B8040A754E5@haven2.com> Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters between themselves In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed. PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 3630 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nathalie.peregrine at icann.org Mon Dec 2 17:20:12 2013 From: nathalie.peregrine at icann.org (Nathalie Peregrine) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 09:20:12 -0800 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] MP3 IRTP D WG - Monday 02 December 2013 at 1600 UTC Message-ID: Dear All, The next Inter-Registrar Transfer Policy (IRTP) Part D Working Group meeting will be held on Monday 9th December 2013 Please find the MP3 recording for the IRTP Part D Working Group call held on Monday 02 December 2013 at 16:00 UTC at: http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-irtp-d-20131202-en.mp3 On page: http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar#dec The recordings and transcriptions of the calls are posted on the GNSO Master Calendar page: http://gnso.icann.org/calendar/ Attendees: James Bladel - RrSG Avri Doria - NCSG Volker Greimann - RrSG Mikey O'Connor - ISPCP Graeme Bunton - RrSG Kristine Dorrain - NAF Bob Mountain - RrSG Barbara Knight - RySG Kevin Erdman - IPC Holly Raiche - ALAC Chris Chaplow - CBUC Bartlett Morgan - Angie Graves - CBUC Rob Golding - RrSG Apologies: Paul Diaz - RySG ICANN staff: Lars Hoffmann Nathalie Peregrine ** Please let me know if your name has been left off the list ** Mailing list archives: http://forum.icann.org/lists/gnso-irtpd/ Wiki page: https://community.icann.org/x/B4JwAg Thank you. Kind regards, Nathalie Peregrine Adobe Connect chat transcript for Monday 02 December 2013: Nathalie Peregrine:Dear all, welcome to the IRTP Part D WG call on the 2nd December 2013 Bart Morgan:Hello all Nathalie Peregrine:Hello! Nathalie Peregrine:Avri Odria has joined the call Nathalie Peregrine:Doria, apologies Mike O'Connor:the Adobe agenda is a little stale :-) Lars Hoffmann:sorry mikey - just updated... Kristine Dorrain:For drafting, it would be helpful to know if we're leaning towards keeping or eliminating the Registries role. Kristine Dorrain:I will abstain from voting as I have an interest... Barbara Knight-RySG:@Kevin, I don't agree that the Registries are a party to the dispute. Under the TDRP, the registry operator is merely acting as a dispute resolution provider Kristine Dorrain:+1 Barbara Knight-RySG:As Kristine indicated, if a dispute is appealed to the second level provider, Registries are required to provide the information provided in the dispute at the first level. Barbara Knight-RySG:The first level is not free at the REgistry Level. However, it is a lesser cost that typically at the second level. Barbara Knight-RySG:Fees are assessed to the non-prevaling party at the first level. Bladel:This is ICANN. Nothing is free. :) Barbara Knight-RySG::-) Mike O'Connor:still muted Bob... Bob Mountain:Sorry Adobe challenges.... Nathalie Peregrine:Bob, you might need to activate your AC room mike by clicking on the telephone icon at the top of the AC room toolbar Bladel:np. We'll go to you once you're live. Bob Mountain:Yeah did that was just getting a lag when trying to unmute, I think I'm live now. Nathalie Peregrine:I can see you as 'mute-able' sp you ought to be good to go :) Bob Mountain:Can you hear me? Nathalie Peregrine:no Bob Mountain:Rats, I give up Nathalie Peregrine:Bob we can dial out to you if needed Mike O'Connor:Bob, you need to quit sticking bubble gum in that mic portal Nathalie Peregrine:Bob, otherwise 1-517-345-9004 866-692-5726 and audio passcode IRTP Bob Mountain:I was just going to say directionally I think we need to simpify, from the BA meeting I think we are getting bogged and think if we can in general I support removing complexity. Bob Mountain:Stating obvious but removing registry layer I think moves us in the right direction. Graeme Bunton:his mic shows as muted Nathalie Peregrine:Bob hasn;t joined the audio bridge yet Bob Mountain:Nathalie I show my client as connected but it's acting weirdly. Holly Raiche:Agree with Mikey Nathalie Peregrine:@ Bob, if needed we can schedule a quick test call to make sure your mike is set up before the next IRTP D call Bob Mountain:Hi Nathalie ok that sounds good, first time that it didn't work so perhaps I just need to reboot machine. Nathalie Peregrine:Bob, I'll email you post call to set it up Volker Greimann:hmm, did I miss anythin? Bob Mountain:Thanks James and Mikey! Volker Greimann:My line dropped twice right now Volker Greimann:ah, just wrapped up Volker Greimann:see you all Bladel:Thanks everyone....welcome to December. :P -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nathalie.peregrine at icann.org Mon Dec 2 17:22:13 2013 From: nathalie.peregrine at icann.org (Nathalie Peregrine) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 09:22:13 -0800 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] UPDATED MP3 IRTP D WG - Monday 02 December 2013 at 1600 UTC Message-ID: Dear All, The next Inter-Registrar Transfer Policy (IRTP) Part D Working Group meeting will be held on Monday 9th December 2013 Please find the MP3 recording for the IRTP Part D Working Group call held on Monday 02 December 2013 at 16:00 UTC at: http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-irtp-d-20131202-en.mp3 On page: http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar#dec The recordings and transcriptions of the calls are posted on the GNSO Master Calendar page: http://gnso.icann.org/calendar/ Attendees: James Bladel - RrSG Avri Doria - NCSG Volker Greimann - RrSG Mikey O'Connor - ISPCP Graeme Bunton - RrSG Kristine Dorrain - NAF Bob Mountain - RrSG Barbara Knight - RySG Kevin Erdman - IPC Holly Raiche - ALAC Chris Chaplow - CBUC Bartlett Morgan - NCUC Apologies: Paul Diaz - RySG ICANN staff: Lars Hoffmann Nathalie Peregrine ** Please let me know if your name has been left off the list ** Mailing list archives: http://forum.icann.org/lists/gnso-irtpd/ Wiki page: https://community.icann.org/x/B4JwAg Thank you. Kind regards, Nathalie Peregrine Adobe Connect chat transcript for Monday 02 December 2013: Nathalie Peregrine:Dear all, welcome to the IRTP Part D WG call on the 2nd December 2013 Bart Morgan:Hello all Nathalie Peregrine:Hello! Nathalie Peregrine:Avri Odria has joined the call Nathalie Peregrine:Doria, apologies Mike O'Connor:the Adobe agenda is a little stale :-) Lars Hoffmann:sorry mikey - just updated... Kristine Dorrain:For drafting, it would be helpful to know if we're leaning towards keeping or eliminating the Registries role. Kristine Dorrain:I will abstain from voting as I have an interest... Barbara Knight-RySG:@Kevin, I don't agree that the Registries are a party to the dispute. Under the TDRP, the registry operator is merely acting as a dispute resolution provider Kristine Dorrain:+1 Barbara Knight-RySG:As Kristine indicated, if a dispute is appealed to the second level provider, Registries are required to provide the information provided in the dispute at the first level. Barbara Knight-RySG:The first level is not free at the REgistry Level. However, it is a lesser cost that typically at the second level. Barbara Knight-RySG:Fees are assessed to the non-prevaling party at the first level. Bladel:This is ICANN. Nothing is free. :) Barbara Knight-RySG::-) Mike O'Connor:still muted Bob... Bob Mountain:Sorry Adobe challenges.... Nathalie Peregrine:Bob, you might need to activate your AC room mike by clicking on the telephone icon at the top of the AC room toolbar Bladel:np. We'll go to you once you're live. Bob Mountain:Yeah did that was just getting a lag when trying to unmute, I think I'm live now. Nathalie Peregrine:I can see you as 'mute-able' sp you ought to be good to go :) Bob Mountain:Can you hear me? Nathalie Peregrine:no Bob Mountain:Rats, I give up Nathalie Peregrine:Bob we can dial out to you if needed Mike O'Connor:Bob, you need to quit sticking bubble gum in that mic portal Nathalie Peregrine:Bob, otherwise 1-517-345-9004 866-692-5726 and audio passcode IRTP Bob Mountain:I was just going to say directionally I think we need to simpify, from the BA meeting I think we are getting bogged and think if we can in general I support removing complexity. Bob Mountain:Stating obvious but removing registry layer I think moves us in the right direction. Graeme Bunton:his mic shows as muted Nathalie Peregrine:Bob hasn;t joined the audio bridge yet Bob Mountain:Nathalie I show my client as connected but it's acting weirdly. Holly Raiche:Agree with Mikey Nathalie Peregrine:@ Bob, if needed we can schedule a quick test call to make sure your mike is set up before the next IRTP D call Bob Mountain:Hi Nathalie ok that sounds good, first time that it didn't work so perhaps I just need to reboot machine. Nathalie Peregrine:Bob, I'll email you post call to set it up Volker Greimann:hmm, did I miss anythin? Bob Mountain:Thanks James and Mikey! Volker Greimann:My line dropped twice right now Volker Greimann:ah, just wrapped up Volker Greimann:see you all Bladel:Thanks everyone....welcome to December. :P -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vgreimann at key-systems.net Mon Dec 2 17:47:24 2013 From: vgreimann at key-systems.net (Volker Greimann) Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 18:47:24 +0100 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP In-Reply-To: <60AF9317-EEBB-4BE5-A4BB-2B8040A754E5@haven2.com> References: <60AF9317-EEBB-4BE5-A4BB-2B8040A754E5@haven2.com> Message-ID: <529CC7AC.8080401@key-systems.net> I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted parties. If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the current process. What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes sense. I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc... Volker > > Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in > cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue > > * > > In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve > matters between themselves > > In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to > whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to > take the issue to Compliance > > Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the > policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings > > If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, > with fees paid by registrars, as normal > > If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to > court if the registrant wants to proceed. > > > PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com > , HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, > LinkedIn, etc.) > -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. Mit freundlichen Gr??en, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mike at haven2.com Mon Dec 2 19:33:54 2013 From: mike at haven2.com (Mike O'Connor) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 13:33:54 -0600 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP In-Reply-To: <529CC7AC.8080401@key-systems.net> References: <60AF9317-EEBB-4BE5-A4BB-2B8040A754E5@haven2.com> <529CC7AC.8080401@key-systems.net> Message-ID: <45A99A3C-7282-4C55-9FE6-55CD27BB5F0E@haven2.com> i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not the intent. the intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar. the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high. On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann wrote: > I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted parties. > > If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the current process. > > What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes sense. > > I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc... > > Volker >> >> Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue >> >> In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters between themselves >> >> In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance >> >> Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings >> >> If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal >> >> If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed. >> >> >> >> PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) >> > > > -- > Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. > > Mit freundlichen Gr??en, > > Volker A. Greimann > - Rechtsabteilung - > > Key-Systems GmbH > Im Oberen Werk 1 > 66386 St. Ingbert > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 > Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net > > Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net > www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com > > Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: > www.facebook.com/KeySystems > www.twitter.com/key_systems > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin > Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken > Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP > www.keydrive.lu > > Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. > > -------------------------------------------- > > Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. > > Best regards, > > Volker A. Greimann > - legal department - > > Key-Systems GmbH > Im Oberen Werk 1 > 66386 St. Ingbert > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 > Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net > > Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net > www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com > > Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: > www.facebook.com/KeySystems > www.twitter.com/key_systems > > CEO: Alexander Siffrin > Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken > V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP > www.keydrive.lu > > This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. > > > PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 3630 bytes Desc: not available URL: From h.raiche at internode.on.net Mon Dec 2 20:19:04 2013 From: h.raiche at internode.on.net (Holly Raiche) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 07:19:04 +1100 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP In-Reply-To: <45A99A3C-7282-4C55-9FE6-55CD27BB5F0E@haven2.com> References: <60AF9317-EEBB-4BE5-A4BB-2B8040A754E5@haven2.com> <529CC7AC.8080401@key-systems.net> <45A99A3C-7282-4C55-9FE6-55CD27BB5F0E@haven2.com> Message-ID: I really agree with Mikey here. The issue we are facing is when a registrar does not take action over an improper transfer of a domain name - to the detriment of the registrant. What is being suggested here is to ensure that, when the registrant can establish an improper transfer that the relevant registrar must commence the TDRP action. And as Mikey suggests, the filter (to be sure of the bona fides of the registrant's case) is a requirement for documentation that ICANN can rule on. If there is a genuine case for the registrant, then the relevant registrar must initiate the TDRP. It doesn't stop being anything other than an inter-registrar process. It just ensures that the registrar cannot refuse to take action when a registrant's domain name has been wrongly transferred. Holly On 03/12/2013, at 6:33 AM, Mike O'Connor wrote: > i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not the intent. the intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar. the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high. > > > On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann wrote: > >> I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted parties. >> >> If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the current process. >> >> What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes sense. >> >> I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc... >> >> Volker >>> >>> Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue >>> >>> In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters between themselves >>> >>> In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance >>> >>> Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings >>> >>> If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal >>> >>> If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed. >>> >>> >>> >>> PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) >>> >> >> >> -- >> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >> >> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >> >> Volker A. Greimann >> - Rechtsabteilung - >> >> Key-Systems GmbH >> Im Oberen Werk 1 >> 66386 St. Ingbert >> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >> >> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net >> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >> >> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >> www.twitter.com/key_systems >> >> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >> >> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >> www.keydrive.lu >> >> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >> >> -------------------------------------------- >> >> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Volker A. Greimann >> - legal department - >> >> Key-Systems GmbH >> Im Oberen Werk 1 >> 66386 St. Ingbert >> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >> >> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net >> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >> >> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >> www.twitter.com/key_systems >> >> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >> >> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >> www.keydrive.lu >> >> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >> >> >> > > > PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vgreimann at key-systems.net Tue Dec 3 15:51:12 2013 From: vgreimann at key-systems.net (Volker Greimann) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 16:51:12 +0100 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP In-Reply-To: <45A99A3C-7282-4C55-9FE6-55CD27BB5F0E@haven2.com> References: <60AF9317-EEBB-4BE5-A4BB-2B8040A754E5@haven2.com> <529CC7AC.8080401@key-systems.net> <45A99A3C-7282-4C55-9FE6-55CD27BB5F0E@haven2.com> Message-ID: <529DFDF0.4030509@key-systems.net> Hi Mike, you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first place. If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle the process). Volker > i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give > registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not the intent. the intent > is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by > their registrar. the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in > those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP > is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high. > > > On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann > > wrote: > >> I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process >> dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to >> deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute >> process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into >> a civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased >> costs and work for contracted parties. >> >> If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be >> sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if >> necessary invoke the current process. >> >> What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process >> between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a >> domain name makes sense. >> >> I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music >> should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be >> invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the >> UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that >> case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent >> cannot pay/is unreachable/etc... >> >> Volker >>> >>> Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process >>> in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue >>> >>> * >>> >>> In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve >>> matters between themselves >>> >>> In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as >>> to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant >>> to take the issue to Compliance >>> >>> Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into >>> the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings >>> >>> If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, >>> with fees paid by registrars, as normal >>> >>> If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off >>> to court if the registrant wants to proceed. >>> >>> >>> >>> PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com >>> , HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, >>> Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) >>> >> >> >> -- >> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >> >> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >> >> Volker A. Greimann >> - Rechtsabteilung - >> >> Key-Systems GmbH >> Im Oberen Werk 1 >> 66386 St. Ingbert >> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >> >> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net >> www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >> >> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >> www.twitter.com/key_systems >> >> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >> >> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >> www.keydrive.lu >> >> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >> >> -------------------------------------------- >> >> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Volker A. Greimann >> - legal department - >> >> Key-Systems GmbH >> Im Oberen Werk 1 >> 66386 St. Ingbert >> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >> >> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net >> www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >> >> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >> www.twitter.com/key_systems >> >> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >> >> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >> www.keydrive.lu >> >> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >> >> >> > > > PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com > , HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, > LinkedIn, etc.) > -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. Mit freundlichen Gr??en, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rob.golding at astutium.com Tue Dec 3 16:08:15 2013 From: rob.golding at astutium.com (Rob Golding) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 16:08:15 -0000 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP In-Reply-To: <529DFDF0.4030509@key-systems.net> References: <60AF9317-EEBB-4BE5-A4BB-2B8040A754E5@haven2.com> <529CC7AC.8080401@key-systems.net> <45A99A3C-7282-4C55-9FE6-55CD27BB5F0E@haven2.com> <529DFDF0.4030509@key-systems.net> Message-ID: <021801cef041$df8048f0$9e80dad0$@golding@astutium.com> Volker Greimann wrote ... > you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. > They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not > blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an access in > the first place. Summed up very nicely :) > If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to > initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, > but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the > costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to cover > the work needed to handle the process). And it would need to be 'pay the initial fees upfront' and 'no refunds' clauses. Rob From mike at haven2.com Tue Dec 3 16:09:56 2013 From: mike at haven2.com (Mike O'Connor) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 10:09:56 -0600 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP In-Reply-To: <529DFDF0.4030509@key-systems.net> References: <60AF9317-EEBB-4BE5-A4BB-2B8040A754E5@haven2.com> <529CC7AC.8080401@key-systems.net> <45A99A3C-7282-4C55-9FE6-55CD27BB5F0E@haven2.com> <529DFDF0.4030509@key-systems.net> Message-ID: hi Volker, i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to transfer out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due process in a dispute between registrars. this was recognized as an oversight in the policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched. i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably in the best position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to leave that discussion up to them. i like James' "put pressure on Registrars to comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live with anything that fixes that problem. what i'm not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in their current situation where these decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts. On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann wrote: > Hi Mike, > > you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first place. > > If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle the process). > > Volker > > >> i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not the intent. the intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar. the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high. >> >> >> On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann wrote: >> >>> I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted parties. >>> >>> If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the current process. >>> >>> What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes sense. >>> >>> I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc... >>> >>> Volker >>>> >>>> Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue >>>> >>>> In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters between themselves >>>> >>>> In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance >>>> >>>> Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings >>>> >>>> If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal >>>> >>>> If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >>> >>> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >>> >>> Volker A. Greimann >>> - Rechtsabteilung - >>> >>> Key-Systems GmbH >>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >>> >>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net >>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >>> >>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >>> www.twitter.com/key_systems >>> >>> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >>> >>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>> www.keydrive.lu >>> >>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >>> >>> -------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Volker A. Greimann >>> - legal department - >>> >>> Key-Systems GmbH >>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >>> >>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net >>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >>> >>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >>> www.twitter.com/key_systems >>> >>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >>> >>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>> www.keydrive.lu >>> >>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) >> > > > -- > Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. > > Mit freundlichen Gr??en, > > Volker A. Greimann > - Rechtsabteilung - > > Key-Systems GmbH > Im Oberen Werk 1 > 66386 St. Ingbert > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 > Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net > > Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net > www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com > > Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: > www.facebook.com/KeySystems > www.twitter.com/key_systems > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin > Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken > Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP > www.keydrive.lu > > Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. > > -------------------------------------------- > > Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. > > Best regards, > > Volker A. Greimann > - legal department - > > Key-Systems GmbH > Im Oberen Werk 1 > 66386 St. Ingbert > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 > Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net > > Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net > www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com > > Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: > www.facebook.com/KeySystems > www.twitter.com/key_systems > > CEO: Alexander Siffrin > Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken > V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP > www.keydrive.lu > > This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. > > > PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 3630 bytes Desc: not available URL: From vgreimann at key-systems.net Tue Dec 3 16:22:10 2013 From: vgreimann at key-systems.net (Volker Greimann) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 17:22:10 +0100 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP In-Reply-To: References: <60AF9317-EEBB-4BE5-A4BB-2B8040A754E5@haven2.com> <529CC7AC.8080401@key-systems.net> <45A99A3C-7282-4C55-9FE6-55CD27BB5F0E@haven2.com> <529DFDF0.4030509@key-systems.net> Message-ID: <529E0532.4000409@key-systems.net> Hi Mike, > i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in > violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to > transfer out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due process > in a dispute between registrars. this was recognized as an oversight > in the policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was > launched. In the first case, the right venue for the registrant is ICANN compliance, where he can lodge a complaint against his registrar. In the second case, I still not see that denying a registrant access to a process not designed for him denies him due process. I do not see that this process is "due" to registrants. > i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably in the best > position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to > leave that discussion up to them. i like James' "put pressure on > Registrars to comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler > one but i can live with anything that fixes that problem. what i'm > not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in their current situation > where these decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no > recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts. A registrant can always take recourse with ICANN compliance if his registrar violates its obligations under the RAA (which includes all consensus policies): http://www.icann.org/en/resources/compliance/complaints/transfer Remember, were are purely talking process here, and registrar process violations are a compliance matter. Compliance action will force the violating registrar to fix the breach, therefore resolving the registrants issue. Best regards, Volker > > > On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann > wrote: > >> Hi Mike, >> >> you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the >> TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is >> not blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an >> access in the first place. >> >> If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to >> initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another >> story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant >> to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this >> service (to cover the work needed to handle the process). >> >> Volker >> >> >>> i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence >>> "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not the intent. the >>> intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that >>> process by their registrar. the hope here is to provide an appeal >>> mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on >>> whether a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that >>> appeal pretty high. >>> >>> >>> On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann >>> > wrote: >>> >>>> I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process >>>> dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed >>>> to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer >>>> dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and >>>> registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will >>>> result in increased costs and work for contracted parties. >>>> >>>> If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be >>>> sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and >>>> if necessary invoke the current process. >>>> >>>> What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process >>>> between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of >>>> a domain name makes sense. >>>> >>>> I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music >>>> should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to >>>> be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with >>>> the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in >>>> that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the >>>> respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc... >>>> >>>> Volker >>>>> >>>>> Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process >>>>> in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue >>>>> >>>>> * >>>>> >>>>> In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve >>>>> matters between themselves >>>>> >>>>> In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant >>>>> as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the >>>>> registrant to take the issue to Compliance >>>>> >>>>> Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into >>>>> the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings >>>>> >>>>> If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, >>>>> with fees paid by registrars, as normal >>>>> >>>>> If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off >>>>> to court if the registrant wants to proceed. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com >>>>> , HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, >>>>> Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >>>> >>>> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >>>> >>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>> - Rechtsabteilung - >>>> >>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>> >>>> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net >>>> www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >>>> >>>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems >>>> >>>> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >>>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >>>> >>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>> >>>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>> - legal department - >>>> >>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>> >>>> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net >>>> www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >>>> >>>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems >>>> >>>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >>>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >>>> >>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>> >>>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com >>> , HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, >>> Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) >>> >> >> >> -- >> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >> >> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >> >> Volker A. Greimann >> - Rechtsabteilung - >> >> Key-Systems GmbH >> Im Oberen Werk 1 >> 66386 St. Ingbert >> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >> >> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net >> www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >> >> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >> www.twitter.com/key_systems >> >> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >> >> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >> www.keydrive.lu >> >> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >> >> -------------------------------------------- >> >> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Volker A. Greimann >> - legal department - >> >> Key-Systems GmbH >> Im Oberen Werk 1 >> 66386 St. Ingbert >> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >> >> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net >> www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >> >> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >> www.twitter.com/key_systems >> >> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >> >> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >> www.keydrive.lu >> >> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >> >> >> > > > PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com > , HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, > LinkedIn, etc.) > -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. Mit freundlichen Gr??en, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbladel at godaddy.com Tue Dec 3 16:27:37 2013 From: jbladel at godaddy.com (James M. Bladel) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 16:27:37 +0000 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Good thoughts everyone. I think perhaps we should try to capture the various scenarios in the ?Reasons for Denial? area, where a registrar can legitimately deny a registrant?s request to initiate a TDRP. For example: if the Registrant believes that the identity of the registrant is in question, or that they cannot substantiate that they were ever the legitimate registrant (or Transfer Contact) for the name pre-transfer. If its a scenario in which the registrar has violated the IRTP, (or even the shiny new TDRP we?re developing), then that is a matter for Compliance and the registrar's accreditation could be at-risk. But we should avoid any process where a registrar is compelled to initiate a TDRP that they believe is without merit, -and- be forced to pay for the proceedings. Thanks? J. From: Mike O'Connor > Date: Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 10:09 To: Volker Greimann > Cc: "gnso-irtpd at icann.org" > Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP hi Volker, i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to transfer out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due process in a dispute between registrars. this was recognized as an oversight in the policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched. i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably in the best position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to leave that discussion up to them. i like James' "put pressure on Registrars to comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live with anything that fixes that problem. what i'm not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in their current situation where these decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts. On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann > wrote: Hi Mike, you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first place. If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle the process). Volker i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not the intent. the intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar. the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high. On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann > wrote: I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted parties. If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the current process. What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes sense. I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc... Volker Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue * In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters between themselves In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed. PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. Mit freundlichen Gr??en, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. Mit freundlichen Gr??en, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kdorrain at adrforum.com Tue Dec 3 16:31:05 2013 From: kdorrain at adrforum.com (Dorrain, Kristine) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 16:31:05 +0000 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP In-Reply-To: <529E0532.4000409@key-systems.net> References: <60AF9317-EEBB-4BE5-A4BB-2B8040A754E5@haven2.com> <529CC7AC.8080401@key-systems.net> <45A99A3C-7282-4C55-9FE6-55CD27BB5F0E@haven2.com> <529DFDF0.4030509@key-systems.net> <529E0532.4000409@key-systems.net> Message-ID: Is there a specific mechanism for Registrants to complain about their Registrar? Because I get complaints and I say "go to Compliance" but I don't think there is a process (or I'm unaware of it). Perhaps, if Compliance is the right home for all Registrant-initiated disputes (which seems to me like a slippery slope because I am pretty sure ICANN's compliance team is not staffed to handle that volume of complaints), then the work product of this committee is to make a recommendation that ICANN set up a position/ ticketing system/dispute process for Registrant disputes. But I think we have to answer the question. It may be that this stuff doesn't go in the TDRP at all, but we can't say Registrants who are the victim of wrongful transfers or failures to transfer have no recourse outside of the court systems because the same jurisdictional issues and timing issues and cost issues that predated the UDRP arise. We need to have some sort of answer to the question "What about when a Registrant is aggrieved (by the Registrar or where the Registrar won't initiate the TDRP process)"? Kristine From: owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org [mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 10:22 AM To: Mike O'Connor Cc: gnso-irtpd at icann.org Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP Hi Mike, i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to transfer out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due process in a dispute between registrars. this was recognized as an oversight in the policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched. In the first case, the right venue for the registrant is ICANN compliance, where he can lodge a complaint against his registrar. In the second case, I still not see that denying a registrant access to a process not designed for him denies him due process. I do not see that this process is "due" to registrants. i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably in the best position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to leave that discussion up to them. i like James' "put pressure on Registrars to comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live with anything that fixes that problem. what i'm not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in their current situation where these decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts. A registrant can always take recourse with ICANN compliance if his registrar violates its obligations under the RAA (which includes all consensus policies): http://www.icann.org/en/resources/compliance/complaints/transfer Remember, were are purely talking process here, and registrar process violations are a compliance matter. Compliance action will force the violating registrar to fix the breach, therefore resolving the registrants issue. Best regards, Volker On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann > wrote: Hi Mike, you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first place. If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle the process). Volker i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not the intent. the intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar. the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high. On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann > wrote: I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted parties. If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the current process. What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes sense. I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc... Volker Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue ? In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters between themselves In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed. PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. Mit freundlichen Gr??en, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. Mit freundlichen Gr??en, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. Mit freundlichen Gr??en, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vgreimann at key-systems.net Tue Dec 3 17:03:04 2013 From: vgreimann at key-systems.net (Volker Greimann) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 18:03:04 +0100 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP In-Reply-To: References: <60AF9317-EEBB-4BE5-A4BB-2B8040A754E5@haven2.com> <529CC7AC.8080401@key-systems.net> <45A99A3C-7282-4C55-9FE6-55CD27BB5F0E@haven2.com> <529DFDF0.4030509@key-systems.net> <529E0532.4000409@key-systems.net> Message-ID: <529E0EC8.40404@key-systems.net> Hi Kristine, yes, there is. It is present on the ICANN pages, and linked from the Internic site. Here is the transfer-related page: http://www.icann.org/en/resources/compliance/complaints/transfer This opens up a form where the registrant can initiate a compliance action against his registrar, and this is a regular process that sees much more use than the TDRP. AFAIK, there already is a ticketing system behind this at ICANN compliance that follows the 1-2-3 compliance process. Regarding the recourse issue, I have recently learned that one reason that INGOs and IGOs vehemently demanded a process to protect their rights seperate from the UDRP was that they cannot accept the clause that would force them to agree to any local jurisdiction. So I learned that having common jurisdiction may not even be desirable for some registrants. With regard of determining your "Waht if..." question, I think we first need to seperate out the possible scenarios to determin which course of action is needed. maybe we will find that there already are current processes that fit the bill perfectly. Volker > Is there a specific mechanism for Registrants to complain about their > Registrar? Because I get complaints and I say "go to Compliance" but > I don't think there is a process (or I'm unaware of it). Perhaps, > if Compliance is the right home for all Registrant-initiated disputes > (which seems to me like a slippery slope because I am pretty sure > ICANN's compliance team is not staffed to handle that volume of > complaints), then the work product of this committee is to make a > recommendation that ICANN set up a position/ ticketing system/dispute > process for Registrant disputes. > > But I think we have to answer the question. It may be that this stuff > doesn't go in the TDRP at all, but we can't say Registrants who are > the victim of wrongful transfers or failures to transfer have no > recourse outside of the court systems because the same jurisdictional > issues and timing issues and cost issues that predated the UDRP > arise. We need to have some sort of answer to the question "What > about when a Registrant is aggrieved (by the Registrar or where the > Registrar won't initiate the TDRP process)"? > > Kristine > > *From:*owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org [mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org] > *On Behalf Of *Volker Greimann > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 03, 2013 10:22 AM > *To:* Mike O'Connor > *Cc:* gnso-irtpd at icann.org > *Subject:* Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence > of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP > > Hi Mike, > > i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in > violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant > to transfer out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due > process in a dispute between registrars. this was recognized as > an oversight in the policy back in the misty past when this series > of IRTP PDPs was launched. > > In the first case, the right venue for the registrant is ICANN > compliance, where he can lodge a complaint against his registrar. > In the second case, I still not see that denying a registrant access > to a process not designed for him denies him due process. I do not see > that this process is "due" to registrants. > > i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably in the best > position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to > leave that discussion up to them. i like James' "put pressure on > Registrars to comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler > one but i can live with anything that fixes that problem. what i'm > not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in their current situation > where these decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no > recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts. > > A registrant can always take recourse with ICANN compliance if his > registrar violates its obligations under the RAA (which includes all > consensus policies): > http://www.icann.org/en/resources/compliance/complaints/transfer > > Remember, were are purely talking process here, and registrar process > violations are a compliance matter. Compliance action will force the > violating registrar to fix the breach, therefore resolving the > registrants issue. > > Best regards, > > Volker > > > On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann > wrote: > > > > Hi Mike, > > you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. > They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not > blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an access in > the first place. > > If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to > initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another > story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant > to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this service > (to cover the work needed to handle the process). > > Volker > > i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence > "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not the intent. > the intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from > that process by their registrar. the hope here is to provide an > appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant > disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the > bar for that appeal pretty high. > > On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann > > wrote: > > > > I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process > dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed > to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer > dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and > registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will > result in increased costs and work for contracted parties. > > If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be > sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and > if necessary invoke the current process. > > What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate > process between registrant and former registrant regarding the > ownership of a domain name makes sense. > > I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music > should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to > be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as > with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but > in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the > respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc... > > Volker > > Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP > process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over > an IRTP issue > > ?In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve > matters between themselves > > In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant > as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the > registrant to take the issue to Compliance > > Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into > the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings > > If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, > with fees paid by registrars, as normal > > If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off > to court if the registrant wants to proceed. > > PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com > , HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, > Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) > > > > > -- > > Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. > > > > Mit freundlichen Gr??en, > > > > Volker A. Greimann > > - Rechtsabteilung - > > > > Key-Systems GmbH > > Im Oberen Werk 1 > > 66386 St. Ingbert > > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 > > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 > > Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net > > > > Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net > > www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com > > > > Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: > > www.facebook.com/KeySystems > > www.twitter.com/key_systems > > > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin > > Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken > > Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 > > > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP > > www.keydrive.lu > > > > Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > > > Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Volker A. Greimann > > - legal department - > > > > Key-Systems GmbH > > Im Oberen Werk 1 > > 66386 St. Ingbert > > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 > > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 > > Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net > > > > Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net > > www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com > > > > Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: > > www.facebook.com/KeySystems > > www.twitter.com/key_systems > > > > CEO: Alexander Siffrin > > Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken > > V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 > > > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP > > www.keydrive.lu > > > > This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. > > > > > > > > > PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com > , HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, > Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) > > > > > -- > Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. > > Mit freundlichen Gr??en, > > Volker A. Greimann > - Rechtsabteilung - > > Key-Systems GmbH > Im Oberen Werk 1 > 66386 St. Ingbert > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 > Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net > > Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net > www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com > > Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: > www.facebook.com/KeySystems > www.twitter.com/key_systems > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin > Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken > Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP > www.keydrive.lu > > Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. > > -------------------------------------------- > > Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. > > Best regards, > > Volker A. Greimann > - legal department - > > Key-Systems GmbH > Im Oberen Werk 1 > 66386 St. Ingbert > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 > Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net > > Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net > www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com > > Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: > www.facebook.com/KeySystems > www.twitter.com/key_systems > > CEO: Alexander Siffrin > Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken > V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP > www.keydrive.lu > > This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. > > > > > > PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com > , HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, > LinkedIn, etc.) > > > > > -- > Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. > > Mit freundlichen Gr??en, > > Volker A. Greimann > - Rechtsabteilung - > > Key-Systems GmbH > Im Oberen Werk 1 > 66386 St. Ingbert > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 > Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net > > Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net > www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com > > Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: > www.facebook.com/KeySystems > www.twitter.com/key_systems > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin > Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken > Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP > www.keydrive.lu > > Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. > > -------------------------------------------- > > Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. > > Best regards, > > Volker A. Greimann > - legal department - > > Key-Systems GmbH > Im Oberen Werk 1 > 66386 St. Ingbert > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 > Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net > > Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net > www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com > > Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: > www.facebook.com/KeySystems > www.twitter.com/key_systems > > CEO: Alexander Siffrin > Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken > V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP > www.keydrive.lu > > This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. > > > -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. Mit freundlichen Gr??en, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vgreimann at key-systems.net Tue Dec 3 17:08:38 2013 From: vgreimann at key-systems.net (Volker Greimann) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 18:08:38 +0100 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <529E1016.5070403@key-systems.net> Hi James, excellent points there. I think the case with your example is that this is not actually a case where a registrar is a party to the dispute. Maybe it is a star witness required to provide the information only it can provide, but not a party. Those roles are better left to prior and current registrant. This however begs the question if ICANN should implement another process for registrants to solve their disputes, or if this may not be better relegated to a future re-design of the UDRP? We could for example make a recommendation that the UDRP be expanded to cover also domain ownership issues in any future revision of that policy. Best, Volker > Good thoughts everyone. I think perhaps we should try to capture the > various scenarios in the ?Reasons for Denial? area, where a registrar > can legitimately deny a registrant?s request to initiate a TDRP. > > For example: if the Registrant believes that the identity of the > registrant is in question, or that they cannot substantiate that they > were ever the legitimate registrant (or Transfer Contact) for the name > pre-transfer. If its a scenario in which the registrar has violated > the IRTP, (or even the shiny new TDRP we?re developing), then that is > a matter for Compliance and the registrar's accreditation could be > at-risk. But we should avoid any process where a registrar is > compelled to initiate a TDRP that they believe is without merit, -and- > be forced to pay for the proceedings. > > Thanks? > > J. > > > > From: Mike O'Connor > > Date: Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 10:09 > To: Volker Greimann > > Cc: "gnso-irtpd at icann.org " > > > Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence > of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP > > hi Volker, > > i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in > violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to > transfer out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due process > in a dispute between registrars. this was recognized as an oversight > in the policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was > launched. > > i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably in the best > position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to > leave that discussion up to them. i like James' "put pressure on > Registrars to comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler > one but i can live with anything that fixes that problem. what i'm > not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in their current situation > where these decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no > recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts. > > > On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann > wrote: > >> Hi Mike, >> >> you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the >> TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is >> not blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an >> access in the first place. >> >> If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to >> initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another >> story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant >> to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this >> service (to cover the work needed to handle the process). >> >> Volker >> >> >>> i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence >>> "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not the intent. the >>> intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that >>> process by their registrar. the hope here is to provide an appeal >>> mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on >>> whether a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that >>> appeal pretty high. >>> >>> >>> On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann >>> > wrote: >>> >>>> I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process >>>> dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed >>>> to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer >>>> dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and >>>> registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will >>>> result in increased costs and work for contracted parties. >>>> >>>> If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be >>>> sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and >>>> if necessary invoke the current process. >>>> >>>> What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process >>>> between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of >>>> a domain name makes sense. >>>> >>>> I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music >>>> should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to >>>> be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with >>>> the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in >>>> that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the >>>> respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc... >>>> >>>> Volker >>>>> >>>>> Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process >>>>> in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue >>>>> >>>>> * >>>>> >>>>> In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve >>>>> matters between themselves >>>>> >>>>> In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant >>>>> as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the >>>>> registrant to take the issue to Compliance >>>>> >>>>> Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into >>>>> the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings >>>>> >>>>> If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, >>>>> with fees paid by registrars, as normal >>>>> >>>>> If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off >>>>> to court if the registrant wants to proceed. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com >>>>> , HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, >>>>> Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >>>> >>>> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >>>> >>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>> - Rechtsabteilung - >>>> >>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>> >>>> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >>>> >>>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems >>>> >>>> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >>>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >>>> >>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>> >>>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>> - legal department - >>>> >>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>> >>>> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >>>> >>>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems >>>> >>>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >>>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >>>> >>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>> >>>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com >>> , HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, >>> Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) >>> >> >> >> -- >> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >> >> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >> >> Volker A. Greimann >> - Rechtsabteilung - >> >> Key-Systems GmbH >> Im Oberen Werk 1 >> 66386 St. Ingbert >> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >> >> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >> >> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >> www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems >> >> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >> >> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >> www.keydrive.lu >> >> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >> >> -------------------------------------------- >> >> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Volker A. Greimann >> - legal department - >> >> Key-Systems GmbH >> Im Oberen Werk 1 >> 66386 St. Ingbert >> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >> >> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >> >> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >> www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems >> >> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >> >> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >> www.keydrive.lu >> >> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >> >> >> > > > PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com > , HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, > LinkedIn, etc.) > -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. Mit freundlichen Gr??en, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kdorrain at adrforum.com Tue Dec 3 17:20:08 2013 From: kdorrain at adrforum.com (Dorrain, Kristine) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 17:20:08 +0000 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP In-Reply-To: <529E1016.5070403@key-systems.net> References: <529E1016.5070403@key-systems.net> Message-ID: Just for the record, I think adding a Registrants option to the UDRP would be just as mucked up as adding it here. In my humble opinion this warrants an entirely new policy or none at all. We don't need to reinvent the Rules....UDRPs Rules are great. Just create the Policy itself, which is entirely TM focused and would be a beast to open up to non-TM holders. :) Kristine From: owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org [mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:09 AM To: James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor Cc: gnso-irtpd at icann.org Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP Hi James, excellent points there. I think the case with your example is that this is not actually a case where a registrar is a party to the dispute. Maybe it is a star witness required to provide the information only it can provide, but not a party. Those roles are better left to prior and current registrant. This however begs the question if ICANN should implement another process for registrants to solve their disputes, or if this may not be better relegated to a future re-design of the UDRP? We could for example make a recommendation that the UDRP be expanded to cover also domain ownership issues in any future revision of that policy. Best, Volker Good thoughts everyone. I think perhaps we should try to capture the various scenarios in the "Reasons for Denial" area, where a registrar can legitimately deny a registrant's request to initiate a TDRP. For example: if the Registrant believes that the identity of the registrant is in question, or that they cannot substantiate that they were ever the legitimate registrant (or Transfer Contact) for the name pre-transfer. If its a scenario in which the registrar has violated the IRTP, (or even the shiny new TDRP we're developing), then that is a matter for Compliance and the registrar's accreditation could be at-risk. But we should avoid any process where a registrar is compelled to initiate a TDRP that they believe is without merit, -and- be forced to pay for the proceedings. Thanks- J. From: Mike O'Connor > Date: Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 10:09 To: Volker Greimann > Cc: "gnso-irtpd at icann.org" > Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP hi Volker, i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to transfer out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due process in a dispute between registrars. this was recognized as an oversight in the policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched. i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably in the best position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to leave that discussion up to them. i like James' "put pressure on Registrars to comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live with anything that fixes that problem. what i'm not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in their current situation where these decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts. On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann > wrote: Hi Mike, you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first place. If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle the process). Volker i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not the intent. the intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar. the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high. On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann > wrote: I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted parties. If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the current process. What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes sense. I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc... Volker Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue ? In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters between themselves In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed. PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. Mit freundlichen Gr??en, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. Mit freundlichen Gr??en, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. Mit freundlichen Gr??en, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kdorrain at adrforum.com Tue Dec 3 17:24:30 2013 From: kdorrain at adrforum.com (Dorrain, Kristine) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 17:24:30 +0000 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP In-Reply-To: <529E0EC8.40404@key-systems.net> References: <60AF9317-EEBB-4BE5-A4BB-2B8040A754E5@haven2.com> <529CC7AC.8080401@key-systems.net> <45A99A3C-7282-4C55-9FE6-55CD27BB5F0E@haven2.com> <529DFDF0.4030509@key-systems.net> <529E0532.4000409@key-systems.net> <529E0EC8.40404@key-systems.net> Message-ID: Thanks Volker. On the topic of jurisdiction, it's my understanding that it's the lesser of the evils. I am sure there is a queue waiting to bust that provision open. :) Kristine From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net] Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:03 AM To: Dorrain, Kristine; Mike O'Connor Cc: gnso-irtpd at icann.org Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP Hi Kristine, yes, there is. It is present on the ICANN pages, and linked from the Internic site. Here is the transfer-related page: http://www.icann.org/en/resources/compliance/complaints/transfer This opens up a form where the registrant can initiate a compliance action against his registrar, and this is a regular process that sees much more use than the TDRP. AFAIK, there already is a ticketing system behind this at ICANN compliance that follows the 1-2-3 compliance process. Regarding the recourse issue, I have recently learned that one reason that INGOs and IGOs vehemently demanded a process to protect their rights seperate from the UDRP was that they cannot accept the clause that would force them to agree to any local jurisdiction. So I learned that having common jurisdiction may not even be desirable for some registrants. With regard of determining your "Waht if..." question, I think we first need to seperate out the possible scenarios to determin which course of action is needed. maybe we will find that there already are current processes that fit the bill perfectly. Volker Is there a specific mechanism for Registrants to complain about their Registrar? Because I get complaints and I say "go to Compliance" but I don't think there is a process (or I'm unaware of it). Perhaps, if Compliance is the right home for all Registrant-initiated disputes (which seems to me like a slippery slope because I am pretty sure ICANN's compliance team is not staffed to handle that volume of complaints), then the work product of this committee is to make a recommendation that ICANN set up a position/ ticketing system/dispute process for Registrant disputes. But I think we have to answer the question. It may be that this stuff doesn't go in the TDRP at all, but we can't say Registrants who are the victim of wrongful transfers or failures to transfer have no recourse outside of the court systems because the same jurisdictional issues and timing issues and cost issues that predated the UDRP arise. We need to have some sort of answer to the question "What about when a Registrant is aggrieved (by the Registrar or where the Registrar won't initiate the TDRP process)"? Kristine From: owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org [mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 10:22 AM To: Mike O'Connor Cc: gnso-irtpd at icann.org Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP Hi Mike, i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to transfer out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due process in a dispute between registrars. this was recognized as an oversight in the policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched. In the first case, the right venue for the registrant is ICANN compliance, where he can lodge a complaint against his registrar. In the second case, I still not see that denying a registrant access to a process not designed for him denies him due process. I do not see that this process is "due" to registrants. i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably in the best position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to leave that discussion up to them. i like James' "put pressure on Registrars to comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live with anything that fixes that problem. what i'm not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in their current situation where these decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts. A registrant can always take recourse with ICANN compliance if his registrar violates its obligations under the RAA (which includes all consensus policies): http://www.icann.org/en/resources/compliance/complaints/transfer Remember, were are purely talking process here, and registrar process violations are a compliance matter. Compliance action will force the violating registrar to fix the breach, therefore resolving the registrants issue. Best regards, Volker On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann > wrote: Hi Mike, you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first place. If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle the process). Volker i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not the intent. the intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar. the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high. On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann > wrote: I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted parties. If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the current process. What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes sense. I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc... Volker Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue ? In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters between themselves In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed. PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. Mit freundlichen Gr??en, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. Mit freundlichen Gr??en, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. Mit freundlichen Gr??en, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. Mit freundlichen Gr??en, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vgreimann at key-systems.net Tue Dec 3 17:40:32 2013 From: vgreimann at key-systems.net (Volker Greimann) Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 18:40:32 +0100 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP In-Reply-To: References: <529E1016.5070403@key-systems.net> Message-ID: <529E1790.5080502@key-systems.net> The issue of Trademark aside, I see many more similarities between the UDRP and the issue of legitimate ownership of a domain than between that issue and the TDRP. After all, both are disputes between parties about who should be the legitimate owner of a domain name. So while we may not want to open the UDRP to new complaints, we may want to look at creating a UDRP2 that is designed for exactly these issues. In both cases the registrar is asked to do certain things in preparation for the dispute and as its result, in both parts the question of the ultimate ownership of a domain name is decided by an independant panel. Volker > > Just for the record, I think adding a Registrants option to the UDRP > would be just as mucked up as adding it here. In my humble opinion > this warrants an entirely new policy or none at all. We don't need to > reinvent the Rules....UDRPs Rules are great. Just create the Policy > itself, which is entirely TM focused and would be a beast to open up > to non-TM holders. J > > Kristine > > *From:*owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org [mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org] > *On Behalf Of *Volker Greimann > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:09 AM > *To:* James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor > *Cc:* gnso-irtpd at icann.org > *Subject:* Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence > of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP > > Hi James, > > excellent points there. I think the case with your example is that > this is not actually a case where a registrar is a party to the > dispute. Maybe it is a star witness required to provide the > information only it can provide, but not a party. Those roles are > better left to prior and current registrant. > > This however begs the question if ICANN should implement another > process for registrants to solve their disputes, or if this may not be > better relegated to a future re-design of the UDRP? We could for > example make a recommendation that the UDRP be expanded to cover also > domain ownership issues in any future revision of that policy. > > Best, > > Volker > > Good thoughts everyone. I think perhaps we should try to capture > the various scenarios in the "Reasons for Denial" area, where a > registrar can legitimately deny a registrant's request to initiate > a TDRP. > > For example: if the Registrant believes that the identity of the > registrant is in question, or that they cannot substantiate that > they were ever the legitimate registrant (or Transfer Contact) for > the name pre-transfer. If its a scenario in which the registrar > has violated the IRTP, (or even the shiny new TDRP we're > developing), then that is a matter for Compliance and the > registrar's accreditation could be at-risk. But we should avoid > any process where a registrar is compelled to initiate a TDRP that > they believe is without merit, -and- be forced to pay for the > proceedings. > > Thanks--- > > J. > > *From: *Mike O'Connor > > *Date: *Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 10:09 > *To: *Volker Greimann > > *Cc: *"gnso-irtpd at icann.org " > > > *Subject: *Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that > sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- > registrant role in TDRP > > hi Volker, > > i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in > violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant > to transfer out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due > process in a dispute between registrars. this was recognized as > an oversight in the policy back in the misty past when this series > of IRTP PDPs was launched. > > i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably in the > best position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm > happy to leave that discussion up to them. i like James' "put > pressure on Registrars to comply" approach since that seems like a > lighter/simpler one but i can live with anything that fixes that > problem. what i'm not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in > their current situation where these decisions get made "for them" > by registrars with no recourse for trapped registrants except > worldwide courts. > > On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann > > wrote: > > > > Hi Mike, > > you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the > TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is > not blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an > access in the first place. > > If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to > initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another > story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the > registrant to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge > for this service (to cover the work needed to handle the process). > > Volker > > i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your > sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not > the intent. the intent is to ensure that registrants are not > blocked from that process by their registrar. the hope here > is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where > registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is > warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal > pretty high. > > On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann > > > wrote: > > > > I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP > process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute > process designed to deal with process violations and will turn > it into a transfer dispute process between registrants, > dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict > between two parties. This will result in increased costs and > work for contracted parties. > > If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be > sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out > and if necessary invoke the current process. > > What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate > process between registrant and former registrant regarding the > ownership of a domain name makes sense. > > I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the > music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a > process to be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the > fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause > makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of > the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is > unreachable/etc... > > Volker > > Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP > process in cases when they disagree with their registrar > over an IRTP issue > > ?In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't > resolve matters between themselves > > In the case of disagreement between registrar and > registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a > path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance > > Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants > into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings > > If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as > normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal > > If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's > off to court if the registrant wants to proceed. > > PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: > www.haven2.com , HANDLE: > OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) > > > > > -- > > Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. > > > > Mit freundlichen Gr??en, > > > > Volker A. Greimann > > - Rechtsabteilung - > > > > Key-Systems GmbH > > Im Oberen Werk 1 > > 66386 St. Ingbert > > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 > > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 > > Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net > > > > Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com > > > > Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: > > www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems > > > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin > > Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken > > Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 > > > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP > > www.keydrive.lu > > > > Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > > > Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Volker A. Greimann > > - legal department - > > > > Key-Systems GmbH > > Im Oberen Werk 1 > > 66386 St. Ingbert > > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 > > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 > > Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net > > > > Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com > > > > Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: > > www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems > > > > CEO: Alexander Siffrin > > Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken > > V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 > > > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP > > www.keydrive.lu > > > > This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. > > > > > > > > > PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com > , HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, > Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) > > > > > -- > > Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. > > > > Mit freundlichen Gr??en, > > > > Volker A. Greimann > > - Rechtsabteilung - > > > > Key-Systems GmbH > > Im Oberen Werk 1 > > 66386 St. Ingbert > > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 > > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 > > Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net > > > > Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com > > > > Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: > > www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems > > > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin > > Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken > > Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 > > > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP > > www.keydrive.lu > > > > Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > > > Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Volker A. Greimann > > - legal department - > > > > Key-Systems GmbH > > Im Oberen Werk 1 > > 66386 St. Ingbert > > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 > > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 > > Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net > > > > Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com > > > > Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: > > www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems > > > > CEO: Alexander Siffrin > > Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken > > V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 > > > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP > > www.keydrive.lu > > > > This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. > > > > > > > > > PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com > , HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, > Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) > > > > > -- > Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. > > Mit freundlichen Gr??en, > > Volker A. Greimann > - Rechtsabteilung - > > Key-Systems GmbH > Im Oberen Werk 1 > 66386 St. Ingbert > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 > Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net > > Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net > www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com > > Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: > www.facebook.com/KeySystems > www.twitter.com/key_systems > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin > Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken > Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP > www.keydrive.lu > > Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. > > -------------------------------------------- > > Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. > > Best regards, > > Volker A. Greimann > - legal department - > > Key-Systems GmbH > Im Oberen Werk 1 > 66386 St. Ingbert > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 > Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net > > Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net > www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com > > Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: > www.facebook.com/KeySystems > www.twitter.com/key_systems > > CEO: Alexander Siffrin > Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken > V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP > www.keydrive.lu > > This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. > > > -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. Mit freundlichen Gr??en, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kdorrain at adrforum.com Tue Dec 3 17:43:29 2013 From: kdorrain at adrforum.com (Dorrain, Kristine) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 17:43:29 +0000 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP In-Reply-To: <529E1790.5080502@key-systems.net> References: <529E1016.5070403@key-systems.net> <529E1790.5080502@key-systems.net> Message-ID: I agree. From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net] Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:41 AM To: Dorrain, Kristine; James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor Cc: gnso-irtpd at icann.org Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP The issue of Trademark aside, I see many more similarities between the UDRP and the issue of legitimate ownership of a domain than between that issue and the TDRP. After all, both are disputes between parties about who should be the legitimate owner of a domain name. So while we may not want to open the UDRP to new complaints, we may want to look at creating a UDRP2 that is designed for exactly these issues. In both cases the registrar is asked to do certain things in preparation for the dispute and as its result, in both parts the question of the ultimate ownership of a domain name is decided by an independant panel. Volker Just for the record, I think adding a Registrants option to the UDRP would be just as mucked up as adding it here. In my humble opinion this warrants an entirely new policy or none at all. We don't need to reinvent the Rules....UDRPs Rules are great. Just create the Policy itself, which is entirely TM focused and would be a beast to open up to non-TM holders. :) Kristine From: owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org [mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:09 AM To: James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor Cc: gnso-irtpd at icann.org Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP Hi James, excellent points there. I think the case with your example is that this is not actually a case where a registrar is a party to the dispute. Maybe it is a star witness required to provide the information only it can provide, but not a party. Those roles are better left to prior and current registrant. This however begs the question if ICANN should implement another process for registrants to solve their disputes, or if this may not be better relegated to a future re-design of the UDRP? We could for example make a recommendation that the UDRP be expanded to cover also domain ownership issues in any future revision of that policy. Best, Volker Good thoughts everyone. I think perhaps we should try to capture the various scenarios in the "Reasons for Denial" area, where a registrar can legitimately deny a registrant's request to initiate a TDRP. For example: if the Registrant believes that the identity of the registrant is in question, or that they cannot substantiate that they were ever the legitimate registrant (or Transfer Contact) for the name pre-transfer. If its a scenario in which the registrar has violated the IRTP, (or even the shiny new TDRP we're developing), then that is a matter for Compliance and the registrar's accreditation could be at-risk. But we should avoid any process where a registrar is compelled to initiate a TDRP that they believe is without merit, -and- be forced to pay for the proceedings. Thanks- J. From: Mike O'Connor > Date: Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 10:09 To: Volker Greimann > Cc: "gnso-irtpd at icann.org" > Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP hi Volker, i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to transfer out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due process in a dispute between registrars. this was recognized as an oversight in the policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched. i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably in the best position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to leave that discussion up to them. i like James' "put pressure on Registrars to comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live with anything that fixes that problem. what i'm not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in their current situation where these decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts. On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann > wrote: Hi Mike, you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first place. If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle the process). Volker i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not the intent. the intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar. the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high. On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann > wrote: I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted parties. If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the current process. What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes sense. I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc... Volker Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue ? In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters between themselves In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed. PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. Mit freundlichen Gr??en, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. Mit freundlichen Gr??en, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. Mit freundlichen Gr??en, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. Mit freundlichen Gr??en, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krerdman at live.com Tue Dec 3 17:57:51 2013 From: krerdman at live.com (Kevin Erdman) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 12:57:51 -0500 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP In-Reply-To: References: <529E1016.5070403@key-systems.net> <529E1790.5080502@key-systems.net> Message-ID: I disagree. The UDRP is designed to correct misbehavior of a valid domain name owner relating to that owner?s use of a domain name, namely that the use of a domain infringes the rights of a trademark owner. The basis of the complaint is not that the domain name owner did not validly register the domain, but rather that the use of the domain is a trademark violation. The facts and circumstances of the ownership of trademark rights and the trademark infringement are outside of the knowledge of the registrars and registries. The UDRP procedures are designed to get the facts in front of the dispute resolution panel to provide the trademark owner with a remedy to trademark infringement that may be difficult or impossible to obtain judicially. The TDRP is about correcting a bad domain transfer, and the circumstances of the transfer are mostly known to the registrars and registries, but there might be some oversight that a registrar or a registrant would want corrected. I think we should focus on where the TDRP leaves a registrant or a registrar without a remedy, and only provide more procedures for scenarios where a remedy is not currently available. ____________________________ Kevin R Erdman Reichel IP LLP 212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280 Indianapolis, IN 46202 voice 317.677.0689 fax 317.454.1349 email kevin at reichelip.com skype kevimundo web www.reichelip.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dorrain, Kristine Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 12:43 PM To: 'Volker Greimann' ; James M. Bladel ; Mike O'Connor Cc: gnso-irtpd at icann.org Subject: RE: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP I agree. From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net] Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:41 AM To: Dorrain, Kristine; James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor Cc: gnso-irtpd at icann.org Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP The issue of Trademark aside, I see many more similarities between the UDRP and the issue of legitimate ownership of a domain than between that issue and the TDRP. After all, both are disputes between parties about who should be the legitimate owner of a domain name. So while we may not want to open the UDRP to new complaints, we may want to look at creating a UDRP2 that is designed for exactly these issues. In both cases the registrar is asked to do certain things in preparation for the dispute and as its result, in both parts the question of the ultimate ownership of a domain name is decided by an independant panel. Volker Just for the record, I think adding a Registrants option to the UDRP would be just as mucked up as adding it here. In my humble opinion this warrants an entirely new policy or none at all. We don?t need to reinvent the Rules?.UDRPs Rules are great. Just create the Policy itself, which is entirely TM focused and would be a beast to open up to non-TM holders. J Kristine From: owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org [mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:09 AM To: James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor Cc: gnso-irtpd at icann.org Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP Hi James, excellent points there. I think the case with your example is that this is not actually a case where a registrar is a party to the dispute. Maybe it is a star witness required to provide the information only it can provide, but not a party. Those roles are better left to prior and current registrant. This however begs the question if ICANN should implement another process for registrants to solve their disputes, or if this may not be better relegated to a future re-design of the UDRP? We could for example make a recommendation that the UDRP be expanded to cover also domain ownership issues in any future revision of that policy. Best, Volker Good thoughts everyone. I think perhaps we should try to capture the various scenarios in the ?Reasons for Denial? area, where a registrar can legitimately deny a registrant?s request to initiate a TDRP. For example: if the Registrant believes that the identity of the registrant is in question, or that they cannot substantiate that they were ever the legitimate registrant (or Transfer Contact) for the name pre-transfer. If its a scenario in which the registrar has violated the IRTP, (or even the shiny new TDRP we?re developing), then that is a matter for Compliance and the registrar's accreditation could be at-risk. But we should avoid any process where a registrar is compelled to initiate a TDRP that they believe is without merit, -and- be forced to pay for the proceedings. Thanks? J. From: Mike O'Connor Date: Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 10:09 To: Volker Greimann Cc: "gnso-irtpd at icann.org" Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP hi Volker, i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to transfer out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due process in a dispute between registrars. this was recognized as an oversight in the policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched. i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably in the best position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to leave that discussion up to them. i like James' "put pressure on Registrars to comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live with anything that fixes that problem. what i'm not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in their current situation where these decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts. On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann wrote: Hi Mike, you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first place. If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle the process). Volker i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not the intent. the intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar. the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high. On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann wrote: I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted parties. If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the current process. What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes sense. I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc... Volker Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue ? In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters between themselves In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed. PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. Mit freundlichen Gr??en, Volker A. Greimann- Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander SiffrinHandelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann- legal department - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander SiffrinRegistration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. Mit freundlichen Gr??en, Volker A. Greimann- Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander SiffrinHandelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann- legal department - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander SiffrinRegistration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. Mit freundlichen Gr??en, Volker A. Greimann- Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander SiffrinHandelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann- legal department - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander SiffrinRegistration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. Mit freundlichen Gr??en, Volker A. Greimann- Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander SiffrinHandelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann- legal department - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander SiffrinRegistration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From h.raiche at internode.on.net Tue Dec 3 21:08:58 2013 From: h.raiche at internode.on.net (Holly Raiche) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 08:08:58 +1100 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP In-Reply-To: <529E0EC8.40404@key-systems.net> References: <60AF9317-EEBB-4BE5-A4BB-2B8040A754E5@haven2.com> <529CC7AC.8080401@key-systems.net> <45A99A3C-7282-4C55-9FE6-55CD27BB5F0E@haven2.com> <529DFDF0.4030509@key-systems.net> <529E0532.4000409@key-systems.net> <529E0EC8.40404@key-systems.net> Message-ID: I agree with both Mikey and Kristine It seems to me that the next step is to specifically ask compliance for their advice on - any process that the registrant can use - in what circumstances - at what cost (if any) - whether they have sufficient powers to enforce the remedy - what kind of documentation they would need to ensure themselves that it is a bona fides complaint (taking up Mikey's point) Once we have all of that information, we can settle whether or not we can remove registrant's from this process - but not until then. I have talked with the Ombudsman, who told me that he can't handle 80% of the complaints he receives as out of jurisdiction. I suspect, but don't know , that some of them may relate to this issue - and they are not being resolved. So please, could we fully inform ourselves of what should be in place for a registrant to take a legitimate complaint to Compliance, what remedies are available, at what cost, and what documentation is needed by compliance. Then we can progress this issue Holly On 04/12/2013, at 4:03 AM, Volker Greimann wrote: > > Hi Kristine, > > yes, there is. It is present on the ICANN pages, and linked from the Internic site. > > Here is the transfer-related page: > > http://www.icann.org/en/resources/compliance/complaints/transfer > > This opens up a form where the registrant can initiate a compliance action against his registrar, and this is a regular process that sees much more use than the TDRP. AFAIK, there already is a ticketing system behind this at ICANN compliance that follows the 1-2-3 compliance process. > > Regarding the recourse issue, I have recently learned that one reason that INGOs and IGOs vehemently demanded a process to protect their rights seperate from the UDRP was that they cannot accept the clause that would force them to agree to any local jurisdiction. So I learned that having common jurisdiction may not even be desirable for some registrants. > > With regard of determining your "Waht if..." question, I think we first need to seperate out the possible scenarios to determin which course of action is needed. maybe we will find that there already are current processes that fit the bill perfectly. > > Volker > > >> Is there a specific mechanism for Registrants to complain about their Registrar? Because I get complaints and I say ?go to Compliance? but I don?t think there is a process (or I?m unaware of it). Perhaps, if Compliance is the right home for all Registrant-initiated disputes (which seems to me like a slippery slope because I am pretty sure ICANN?s compliance team is not staffed to handle that volume of complaints), then the work product of this committee is to make a recommendation that ICANN set up a position/ ticketing system/dispute process for Registrant disputes. >> >> But I think we have to answer the question. It may be that this stuff doesn?t go in the TDRP at all, but we can?t say Registrants who are the victim of wrongful transfers or failures to transfer have no recourse outside of the court systems because the same jurisdictional issues and timing issues and cost issues that predated the UDRP arise. We need to have some sort of answer to the question ?What about when a Registrant is aggrieved (by the Registrar or where the Registrar won?t initiate the TDRP process)?? >> >> Kristine >> >> From: owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org [mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann >> Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 10:22 AM >> To: Mike O'Connor >> Cc: gnso-irtpd at icann.org >> Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP >> >> Hi Mike, >> i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to transfer out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due process in a dispute between registrars. this was recognized as an oversight in the policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched. >> In the first case, the right venue for the registrant is ICANN compliance, where he can lodge a complaint against his registrar. >> In the second case, I still not see that denying a registrant access to a process not designed for him denies him due process. I do not see that this process is "due" to registrants. >> >> i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably in the best position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to leave that discussion up to them. i like James' "put pressure on Registrars to comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live with anything that fixes that problem. what i'm not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in their current situation where these decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts. >> A registrant can always take recourse with ICANN compliance if his registrar violates its obligations under the RAA (which includes all consensus policies): >> http://www.icann.org/en/resources/compliance/complaints/transfer >> >> Remember, were are purely talking process here, and registrar process violations are a compliance matter. Compliance action will force the violating registrar to fix the breach, therefore resolving the registrants issue. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Volker >> >> >> >> >> On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann wrote: >> >> >> Hi Mike, >> >> you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first place. >> >> If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle the process). >> >> Volker >> >> >> i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not the intent. the intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar. the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high. >> >> >> On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann wrote: >> >> >> I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted parties. >> >> If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the current process. >> >> What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes sense. >> >> I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc... >> >> Volker >> >> Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue >> >> ? In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters between themselves >> >> In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance >> >> Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings >> >> If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal >> >> If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed. >> >> >> >> >> PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >> >> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >> >> Volker A. Greimann >> - Rechtsabteilung - >> >> Key-Systems GmbH >> Im Oberen Werk 1 >> 66386 St. Ingbert >> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >> >> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net >> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >> >> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >> www.twitter.com/key_systems >> >> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >> >> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >> www.keydrive.lu >> >> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >> >> -------------------------------------------- >> >> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Volker A. Greimann >> - legal department - >> >> Key-Systems GmbH >> Im Oberen Werk 1 >> 66386 St. Ingbert >> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >> >> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net >> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >> >> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >> www.twitter.com/key_systems >> >> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >> >> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >> www.keydrive.lu >> >> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >> >> >> >> >> >> PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >> >> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >> >> Volker A. Greimann >> - Rechtsabteilung - >> >> Key-Systems GmbH >> Im Oberen Werk 1 >> 66386 St. Ingbert >> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >> >> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net >> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >> >> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >> www.twitter.com/key_systems >> >> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >> >> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >> www.keydrive.lu >> >> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >> >> -------------------------------------------- >> >> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Volker A. Greimann >> - legal department - >> >> Key-Systems GmbH >> Im Oberen Werk 1 >> 66386 St. Ingbert >> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >> >> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net >> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >> >> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >> www.twitter.com/key_systems >> >> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >> >> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >> www.keydrive.lu >> >> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >> >> >> >> >> >> PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >> >> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >> >> Volker A. Greimann >> - Rechtsabteilung - >> >> Key-Systems GmbH >> Im Oberen Werk 1 >> 66386 St. Ingbert >> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >> >> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net >> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >> >> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >> www.twitter.com/key_systems >> >> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >> >> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >> www.keydrive.lu >> >> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >> >> -------------------------------------------- >> >> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Volker A. Greimann >> - legal department - >> >> Key-Systems GmbH >> Im Oberen Werk 1 >> 66386 St. Ingbert >> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >> >> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net >> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >> >> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >> www.twitter.com/key_systems >> >> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >> >> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >> www.keydrive.lu >> >> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >> >> >> > > > -- > Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. > > Mit freundlichen Gr??en, > > Volker A. Greimann > - Rechtsabteilung - > > Key-Systems GmbH > Im Oberen Werk 1 > 66386 St. Ingbert > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 > Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net > > Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net > www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com > > Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: > www.facebook.com/KeySystems > www.twitter.com/key_systems > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin > Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken > Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP > www.keydrive.lu > > Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. > > -------------------------------------------- > > Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. > > Best regards, > > Volker A. Greimann > - legal department - > > Key-Systems GmbH > Im Oberen Werk 1 > 66386 St. Ingbert > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 > Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net > > Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net > www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com > > Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: > www.facebook.com/KeySystems > www.twitter.com/key_systems > > CEO: Alexander Siffrin > Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken > V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP > www.keydrive.lu > > This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From h.raiche at internode.on.net Tue Dec 3 21:46:49 2013 From: h.raiche at internode.on.net (Holly Raiche) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 08:46:49 +1100 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP In-Reply-To: References: <529E1016.5070403@key-systems.net> <529E1790.5080502@key-systems.net> Message-ID: <249BCFDF-7322-4596-A4F2-9B2C93CE1FCC@internode.on.net> Well said Kevin Holly On 04/12/2013, at 4:57 AM, Kevin Erdman wrote: > I disagree. The UDRP is designed to correct misbehavior of a valid domain name owner relating to that owner?s use of a domain name, namely that the use of a domain infringes the rights of a trademark owner. The basis of the complaint is not that the domain name owner did not validly register the domain, but rather that the use of the domain is a trademark violation. The facts and circumstances of the ownership of trademark rights and the trademark infringement are outside of the knowledge of the registrars and registries. The UDRP procedures are designed to get the facts in front of the dispute resolution panel to provide the trademark owner with a remedy to trademark infringement that may be difficult or impossible to obtain judicially. > > The TDRP is about correcting a bad domain transfer, and the circumstances of the transfer are mostly known to the registrars and registries, but there might be some oversight that a registrar or a registrant would want corrected. I think we should focus on where the TDRP leaves a registrant or a registrar without a remedy, and only provide more procedures for scenarios where a remedy is not currently available. > ____________________________ > Kevin R Erdman > Reichel IP LLP > 212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280 > Indianapolis, IN 46202 > voice 317.677.0689 > fax 317.454.1349 > email kevin at reichelip.com > skype kevimundo > web www.reichelip.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From: Dorrain, Kristine > Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 12:43 PM > To: 'Volker Greimann' ; James M. Bladel ; Mike O'Connor > Cc: gnso-irtpd at icann.org > Subject: RE: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP > > I agree. > > From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net] > Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:41 AM > To: Dorrain, Kristine; James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor > Cc: gnso-irtpd at icann.org > Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP > > The issue of Trademark aside, I see many more similarities between the UDRP and the issue of legitimate ownership of a domain than between that issue and the TDRP. After all, both are disputes between parties about who should be the legitimate owner of a domain name. > > So while we may not want to open the UDRP to new complaints, we may want to look at creating a UDRP2 that is designed for exactly these issues. > > In both cases the registrar is asked to do certain things in preparation for the dispute and as its result, in both parts the question of the ultimate ownership of a domain name is decided by an independant panel. > > Volker > Just for the record, I think adding a Registrants option to the UDRP would be just as mucked up as adding it here. In my humble opinion this warrants an entirely new policy or none at all. We don?t need to reinvent the Rules?.UDRPs Rules are great. Just create the Policy itself, which is entirely TM focused and would be a beast to open up to non-TM holders. J > > Kristine > > From: owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org [mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann > Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:09 AM > To: James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor > Cc: gnso-irtpd at icann.org > Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP > > Hi James, > > excellent points there. I think the case with your example is that this is not actually a case where a registrar is a party to the dispute. Maybe it is a star witness required to provide the information only it can provide, but not a party. Those roles are better left to prior and current registrant. > > This however begs the question if ICANN should implement another process for registrants to solve their disputes, or if this may not be better relegated to a future re-design of the UDRP? We could for example make a recommendation that the UDRP be expanded to cover also domain ownership issues in any future revision of that policy. > > Best, > > Volker > > > > Good thoughts everyone. I think perhaps we should try to capture the various scenarios in the ?Reasons for Denial? area, where a registrar can legitimately deny a registrant?s request to initiate a TDRP. > > For example: if the Registrant believes that the identity of the registrant is in question, or that they cannot substantiate that they were ever the legitimate registrant (or Transfer Contact) for the name pre-transfer. If its a scenario in which the registrar has violated the IRTP, (or even the shiny new TDRP we?re developing), then that is a matter for Compliance and the registrar's accreditation could be at-risk. But we should avoid any process where a registrar is compelled to initiate a TDRP that they believe is without merit, -and- be forced to pay for the proceedings. > > Thanks? > > J. > > > > From: Mike O'Connor > Date: Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 10:09 > To: Volker Greimann > Cc: "gnso-irtpd at icann.org" > Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP > > hi Volker, > > i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to transfer out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due process in a dispute between registrars. this was recognized as an oversight in the policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched. > > i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably in the best position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to leave that discussion up to them. i like James' "put pressure on Registrars to comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live with anything that fixes that problem. what i'm not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in their current situation where these decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts. > > > On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann wrote: > > > > Hi Mike, > > you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first place. > > If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle the process). > > Volker > > > > i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not the intent. the intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar. the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high. > > > On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann wrote: > > > > I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted parties. > > If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the current process. > > What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes sense. > > I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc... > > Volker > > Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue > > ? In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters between themselves > > In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance > > Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings > > If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal > > If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed. > > > > > PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) > > > > > > -- > Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. > > Mit freundlichen Gr??en, > > Volker A. Greimann > - Rechtsabteilung - > > Key-Systems GmbH > Im Oberen Werk 1 > 66386 St. Ingbert > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 > Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net > > Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com > > Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: > www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin > Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken > Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP > www.keydrive.lu > > Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. > > -------------------------------------------- > > Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. > > Best regards, > > Volker A. Greimann > - legal department - > > Key-Systems GmbH > Im Oberen Werk 1 > 66386 St. Ingbert > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 > Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net > > Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com > > Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: > www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems > > CEO: Alexander Siffrin > Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken > V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP > www.keydrive.lu > > This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. > > > > > > PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) > > > > > > -- > Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. > > Mit freundlichen Gr??en, > > Volker A. Greimann > - Rechtsabteilung - > > Key-Systems GmbH > Im Oberen Werk 1 > 66386 St. Ingbert > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 > Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net > > Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com > > Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: > www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin > Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken > Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP > www.keydrive.lu > > Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. > > -------------------------------------------- > > Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. > > Best regards, > > Volker A. Greimann > - legal department - > > Key-Systems GmbH > Im Oberen Werk 1 > 66386 St. Ingbert > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 > Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net > > Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com > > Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: > www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems > > CEO: Alexander Siffrin > Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken > V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP > www.keydrive.lu > > This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. > > > > > > PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) > > > > > > -- > Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. > > Mit freundlichen Gr??en, > > Volker A. Greimann > - Rechtsabteilung - > > Key-Systems GmbH > Im Oberen Werk 1 > 66386 St. Ingbert > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 > Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net > > Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net > www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com > > Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: > www.facebook.com/KeySystems > www.twitter.com/key_systems > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin > Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken > Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP > www.keydrive.lu > > Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. > > -------------------------------------------- > > Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. > > Best regards, > > Volker A. Greimann > - legal department - > > Key-Systems GmbH > Im Oberen Werk 1 > 66386 St. Ingbert > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 > Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net > > Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net > www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com > > Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: > www.facebook.com/KeySystems > www.twitter.com/key_systems > > CEO: Alexander Siffrin > Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken > V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP > www.keydrive.lu > > This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. > > > > > > > -- > Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. > > Mit freundlichen Gr??en, > > Volker A. Greimann > - Rechtsabteilung - > > Key-Systems GmbH > Im Oberen Werk 1 > 66386 St. Ingbert > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 > Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net > > Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net > www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com > > Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: > www.facebook.com/KeySystems > www.twitter.com/key_systems > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin > Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken > Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP > www.keydrive.lu > > Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. > > -------------------------------------------- > > Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. > > Best regards, > > Volker A. Greimann > - legal department - > > Key-Systems GmbH > Im Oberen Werk 1 > 66386 St. Ingbert > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 > Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net > > Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net > www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com > > Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: > www.facebook.com/KeySystems > www.twitter.com/key_systems > > CEO: Alexander Siffrin > Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken > V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP > www.keydrive.lu > > This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vgreimann at key-systems.net Wed Dec 4 09:32:21 2013 From: vgreimann at key-systems.net (Volker Greimann) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 10:32:21 +0100 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP In-Reply-To: <249BCFDF-7322-4596-A4F2-9B2C93CE1FCC@internode.on.net> References: <529E1016.5070403@key-systems.net> <529E1790.5080502@key-systems.net> <249BCFDF-7322-4596-A4F2-9B2C93CE1FCC@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <529EF6A5.8030606@key-systems.net> Hi Kevin and Holly, one aspect we noted previously was that the issues at hand look more like ownership issues than transfer issues, as the exact same problems for the registrant may exist when no transfer has taken place. Therefore a process that focusses on unauthorized ownership changes rather than transfers may be better to deal with the the actual problem. And the issue of who should own a domain is more commonly dealt with under the UDRP (albeit under different conditions) than the TDRP, which does not deal with such issues at all, or only as a result from process violation. Volker > Well said Kevin > > Holly > On 04/12/2013, at 4:57 AM, Kevin Erdman wrote: > >> I disagree. The UDRP is designed to correct misbehavior of a valid >> domain name owner relating to that owner?s use of a domain name, >> namely that the use of a domain infringes the rights of a trademark >> owner. The basis of the complaint is not that the domain name owner >> did not validly register the domain, but rather that the use of the >> domain is a trademark violation. The facts and circumstances of the >> ownership of trademark rights and the trademark infringement are >> outside of the knowledge of the registrars and registries. The UDRP >> procedures are designed to get the facts in front of the dispute >> resolution panel to provide the trademark owner with a remedy to >> trademark infringement that may be difficult or impossible to obtain >> judicially. >> The TDRP is about correcting a bad domain transfer, and the >> circumstances of the transfer are mostly known to the registrars and >> registries, but there might be some oversight that a registrar or a >> registrant would want corrected. I think we should focus on where >> the TDRP leaves a registrant or a registrar without a remedy, and >> only provide more procedures for scenarios where a remedy is not >> currently available. >> ____________________________ >> Kevin R Erdman >> Reichel IP LLP >> 212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280 >> Indianapolis, IN 46202 >> voice 317.677.0689 >> fax 317.454.1349 >> emailkevin at reichelip.com >> skype kevimundo >> webwww.reichelip.com >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> *From:*Dorrain, Kristine >> *Sent:*Tuesday, December 03, 2013 12:43 PM >> *To:*'Volker Greimann' ;James M. >> Bladel ;Mike O'Connor >> >> *Cc:*gnso-irtpd at icann.org >> *Subject:*RE: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence >> of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP >> I agree. >> *From:*Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net] >> *Sent:*Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:41 AM >> *To:*Dorrain, Kristine; James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor >> *Cc:*gnso-irtpd at icann.org >> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence >> of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP >> The issue of Trademark aside, I see many more similarities between >> the UDRP and the issue of legitimate ownership of a domain than >> between that issue and the TDRP. After all, both are disputes between >> parties about who should be the legitimate owner of a domain name. >> >> So while we may not want to open the UDRP to new complaints, we may >> want to look at creating a UDRP2 that is designed for exactly these >> issues. >> >> In both cases the registrar is asked to do certain things in >> preparation for the dispute and as its result, in both parts the >> question of the ultimate ownership of a domain name is decided by an >> independant panel. >> >> Volker >> >> Just for the record, I think adding a Registrants option to the >> UDRP would be just as mucked up as adding it here. In my humble >> opinion this warrants an entirely new policy or none at all. We >> don?t need to reinvent the Rules?.UDRPs Rules are great. Just >> create the Policy itself, which is entirely TM focused and would >> be a beast to open up to non-TM holders. J >> Kristine >> *From:*owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org >> [mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org]*On >> Behalf Of*Volker Greimann >> *Sent:*Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:09 AM >> *To:*James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor >> *Cc:*gnso-irtpd at icann.org >> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that >> sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- >> registrant role in TDRP >> >> Hi James, >> >> excellent points there. I think the case with your example is >> that this is not actually a case where a registrar is a party to >> the dispute. Maybe it is a star witness required to provide the >> information only it can provide, but not a party. Those roles are >> better left to prior and current registrant. >> >> This however begs the question if ICANN should implement another >> process for registrants to solve their disputes, or if this may >> not be better relegated to a future re-design of the UDRP? We >> could for example make a recommendation that the UDRP be expanded >> to cover also domain ownership issues in any future revision of >> that policy. >> >> Best, >> >> Volker >> >> >> Good thoughts everyone. I think perhaps we should try to >> capture the various scenarios in the ?Reasons for Denial? >> area, where a registrar can legitimately deny a registrant?s >> request to initiate a TDRP. >> For example: if the Registrant believes that the identity of >> the registrant is in question, or that they cannot >> substantiate that they were ever the legitimate registrant >> (or Transfer Contact) for the name pre-transfer. If its a >> scenario in which the registrar has violated the IRTP, (or >> even the shiny new TDRP we?re developing), then that is a >> matter for Compliance and the registrar's accreditation could >> be at-risk. But we should avoid any process where a >> registrar is compelled to initiate a TDRP that they believe >> is without merit, -and- be forced to pay for the proceedings. >> Thanks? >> J. >> *From:*Mike O'Connor > >> *Date:*Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 10:09 >> *To:*Volker Greimann > > >> *Cc:*"gnso-irtpd at icann.org " >> > >> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that >> sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- >> registrant role in TDRP >> hi Volker, >> i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is >> either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow >> the registrant to transfer out) or is presumptively denying >> the registrant due process in a dispute between registrars. >> this was recognized as an oversight in the policy back in the >> misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched. >> i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably in the >> best position to figure out the best way to get this done and >> i'm happy to leave that discussion up to them. i like James' >> "put pressure on Registrars to comply" approach since that >> seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live with anything >> that fixes that problem. what i'm not keen on the idea of >> leaving registrants in their current situation where these >> decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no recourse >> for trapped registrants except worldwide courts. >> On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann >> > > wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi Mike, >> >> you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of >> the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating >> a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access as they do not >> have such an access in the first place. >> >> If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar >> to initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is >> another story, but that way needs to include an obligation of >> the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to >> charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle >> the process). >> >> Volker >> >> >> i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your >> sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's >> not the intent. the intent is to ensure that registrants >> are not blocked from that process by their registrar. >> the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those >> cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether >> a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for >> that appeal pretty high. >> On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann >> > > wrote: >> >> >> >> I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP >> process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute >> process designed to deal with process violations and will >> turn it into a transfer dispute process between >> registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a >> civil conflict between two parties. This will result in >> increased costs and work for contracted parties. >> >> If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there >> will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to >> call them out and if necessary invoke the current process. >> >> What we need to look at instead is if creating an >> alternate process between registrant and former >> registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes >> sense. >> >> I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the >> music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant >> wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to >> pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser >> pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will >> remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent >> cannot pay/is unreachable/etc... >> >> Volker >> >> Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the >> TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their >> registrar over an IRTP issue >> >> ?In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't >> resolve matters between themselves >> >> In the case of disagreement between registrar and >> registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide >> a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance >> >> Build minimum documentation requirements for >> registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent >> frivolous filings >> >> If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds >> as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal >> >> If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- >> it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed. >> >> PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, >> WEB:www.haven2.com , HANDLE: >> OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >> >> >> >> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >> >> >> >> Volker A. Greimann >> >> - Rechtsabteilung - >> >> >> >> Key-Systems GmbH >> >> Im Oberen Werk 1 >> >> 66386 St. Ingbert >> >> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >> >> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >> >> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >> >> >> >> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >> >> >> >> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >> >> www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems >> >> >> >> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >> >> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >> >> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >> >> >> >> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >> >> www.keydrive.lu >> >> >> >> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >> >> >> >> Best regards, >> >> >> >> Volker A. Greimann >> >> - legal department - >> >> >> >> Key-Systems GmbH >> >> Im Oberen Werk 1 >> >> 66386 St. Ingbert >> >> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >> >> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >> >> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >> >> >> >> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >> >> >> >> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >> >> www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems >> >> >> >> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >> >> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >> >> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >> >> >> >> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >> >> www.keydrive.lu >> >> >> >> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, >> WEB:www.haven2.com , HANDLE: >> OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >> >> >> >> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >> >> >> >> Volker A. Greimann >> >> - Rechtsabteilung - >> >> >> >> Key-Systems GmbH >> >> Im Oberen Werk 1 >> >> 66386 St. Ingbert >> >> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >> >> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >> >> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >> >> >> >> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >> >> >> >> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >> >> www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems >> >> >> >> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >> >> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >> >> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >> >> >> >> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >> >> www.keydrive.lu >> >> >> >> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >> >> >> >> Best regards, >> >> >> >> Volker A. Greimann >> >> - legal department - >> >> >> >> Key-Systems GmbH >> >> Im Oberen Werk 1 >> >> 66386 St. Ingbert >> >> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >> >> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >> >> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >> >> >> >> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >> >> >> >> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >> >> www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems >> >> >> >> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >> >> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >> >> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >> >> >> >> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >> >> www.keydrive.lu >> >> >> >> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB:www.haven2.com >> , HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, >> Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >> >> >> >> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >> >> >> >> Volker A. Greimann >> >> - Rechtsabteilung - >> >> >> >> Key-Systems GmbH >> >> Im Oberen Werk 1 >> >> 66386 St. Ingbert >> >> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >> >> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >> >> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >> >> >> >> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net >> >> www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >> >> >> >> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >> >> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >> >> www.twitter.com/key_systems >> >> >> >> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >> >> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >> >> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >> >> >> >> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >> >> www.keydrive.lu >> >> >> >> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >> >> >> >> Best regards, >> >> >> >> Volker A. Greimann >> >> - legal department - >> >> >> >> Key-Systems GmbH >> >> Im Oberen Werk 1 >> >> 66386 St. Ingbert >> >> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >> >> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >> >> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >> >> >> >> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net >> >> www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >> >> >> >> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >> >> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >> >> www.twitter.com/key_systems >> >> >> >> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >> >> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >> >> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >> >> >> >> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >> >> www.keydrive.lu >> >> >> >> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >> >> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >> >> Volker A. Greimann >> - Rechtsabteilung - >> >> Key-Systems GmbH >> Im Oberen Werk 1 >> 66386 St. Ingbert >> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >> >> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net >> www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >> >> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >> www.twitter.com/key_systems >> >> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >> >> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >> www.keydrive.lu >> >> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >> >> -------------------------------------------- >> >> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Volker A. Greimann >> - legal department - >> >> Key-Systems GmbH >> Im Oberen Werk 1 >> 66386 St. Ingbert >> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >> >> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net >> www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >> >> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >> www.twitter.com/key_systems >> >> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >> >> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >> www.keydrive.lu >> >> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >> >> >> > -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. Mit freundlichen Gr??en, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krerdman at live.com Wed Dec 4 12:35:33 2013 From: krerdman at live.com (Kevin Erdman) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 07:35:33 -0500 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP In-Reply-To: <529EF6A5.8030606@key-systems.net> References: <529E1016.5070403@key-systems.net> <529E1790.5080502@key-systems.net> <249BCFDF-7322-4596-A4F2-9B2C93CE1FCC@internode.on.net> <529EF6A5.8030606@key-systems.net> Message-ID: Hi Volker, I agree that ownership issues are a key to this discussion. However, when the ownership issue only relates to a domain at a single registrar, traditional contract principles apply and make those situations a standard contractual dispute handled with regard to ICANN contracts and registrant-registrar contracts. The problem falls outside of this context when the domain is also transferred, so that multiple parties may be involved in resolving the ownership issue and that is the problem we are discussing?I believe that handling unauthorized ownership changes within a registrar is not part of our Charter. The UDRP explicitly does not deal with who should own a domain, rather one possible resolution of the UDRP procedure is the transfer of a domain name. The issues that a dispute resolution panel has to deal with is the the activities of the domain owner, the trademark rights of the complaint filer, and the question of whether the registration and/or use of the domain is in bad faith in light of the trademark rights. Ownership transfer is a possible form of relief, but not an issue that the dispute resolution panel evaluates. From the perspective of a registry, the UDRP involves some input and the output is who gets to own the domain. However, from the perspective of registrars and registrants, the UDRP is all about the nature and extent of trademark rights and the domain name in question. IMO, the only similarity between resolving ownership issues and the UDRP is the last step, that a form of relief may be a forced transfer of a domain. Otherwise, the UDRP does not deal with the ownership issues of which we are concerned. ____________________________ Kevin R Erdman Reichel IP LLP 212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280 Indianapolis, IN 46202 voice 317.677.0689 fax 317.454.1349 email kevin at reichelip.com skype kevimundo web www.reichelip.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Volker Greimann Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 4:32 AM To: Holly Raiche ; Kevin Erdman Cc: Dorrain, Kristine ; James M. Bladel ; Mike O'Connor ; gnso-irtpd at icann.org Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP Hi Kevin and Holly, one aspect we noted previously was that the issues at hand look more like ownership issues than transfer issues, as the exact same problems for the registrant may exist when no transfer has taken place. Therefore a process that focusses on unauthorized ownership changes rather than transfers may be better to deal with the the actual problem. And the issue of who should own a domain is more commonly dealt with under the UDRP (albeit under different conditions) than the TDRP, which does not deal with such issues at all, or only as a result from process violation. Volker Well said Kevin Holly On 04/12/2013, at 4:57 AM, Kevin Erdman wrote: I disagree. The UDRP is designed to correct misbehavior of a valid domain name owner relating to that owner?s use of a domain name, namely that the use of a domain infringes the rights of a trademark owner. The basis of the complaint is not that the domain name owner did not validly register the domain, but rather that the use of the domain is a trademark violation. The facts and circumstances of the ownership of trademark rights and the trademark infringement are outside of the knowledge of the registrars and registries. The UDRP procedures are designed to get the facts in front of the dispute resolution panel to provide the trademark owner with a remedy to trademark infringement that may be difficult or impossible to obtain judicially. The TDRP is about correcting a bad domain transfer, and the circumstances of the transfer are mostly known to the registrars and registries, but there might be some oversight that a registrar or a registrant would want corrected. I think we should focus on where the TDRP leaves a registrant or a registrar without a remedy, and only provide more procedures for scenarios where a remedy is not currently available. ____________________________ Kevin R Erdman Reichel IP LLP 212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280 Indianapolis, IN 46202 voice 317.677.0689 fax 317.454.1349 email kevin at reichelip.com skype kevimundo web www.reichelip.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dorrain, Kristine Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 12:43 PM To: 'Volker Greimann' ; James M. Bladel ; Mike O'Connor Cc: gnso-irtpd at icann.org Subject: RE: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP I agree. From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net] Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:41 AM To: Dorrain, Kristine; James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor Cc: gnso-irtpd at icann.org Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP The issue of Trademark aside, I see many more similarities between the UDRP and the issue of legitimate ownership of a domain than between that issue and the TDRP. After all, both are disputes between parties about who should be the legitimate owner of a domain name. So while we may not want to open the UDRP to new complaints, we may want to look at creating a UDRP2 that is designed for exactly these issues. In both cases the registrar is asked to do certain things in preparation for the dispute and as its result, in both parts the question of the ultimate ownership of a domain name is decided by an independant panel. Volker Just for the record, I think adding a Registrants option to the UDRP would be just as mucked up as adding it here. In my humble opinion this warrants an entirely new policy or none at all. We don?t need to reinvent the Rules?.UDRPs Rules are great. Just create the Policy itself, which is entirely TM focused and would be a beast to open up to non-TM holders. J Kristine From: owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org [mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:09 AM To: James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor Cc: gnso-irtpd at icann.org Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP Hi James, excellent points there. I think the case with your example is that this is not actually a case where a registrar is a party to the dispute. Maybe it is a star witness required to provide the information only it can provide, but not a party. Those roles are better left to prior and current registrant. This however begs the question if ICANN should implement another process for registrants to solve their disputes, or if this may not be better relegated to a future re-design of the UDRP? We could for example make a recommendation that the UDRP be expanded to cover also domain ownership issues in any future revision of that policy. Best, Volker Good thoughts everyone. I think perhaps we should try to capture the various scenarios in the ?Reasons for Denial? area, where a registrar can legitimately deny a registrant?s request to initiate a TDRP. For example: if the Registrant believes that the identity of the registrant is in question, or that they cannot substantiate that they were ever the legitimate registrant (or Transfer Contact) for the name pre-transfer. If its a scenario in which the registrar has violated the IRTP, (or even the shiny new TDRP we?re developing), then that is a matter for Compliance and the registrar's accreditation could be at-risk. But we should avoid any process where a registrar is compelled to initiate a TDRP that they believe is without merit, -and- be forced to pay for the proceedings. Thanks? J. From: Mike O'Connor Date: Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 10:09 To: Volker Greimann Cc: "gnso-irtpd at icann.org" Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP hi Volker, i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to transfer out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due process in a dispute between registrars. this was recognized as an oversight in the policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched. i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably in the best position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to leave that discussion up to them. i like James' "put pressure on Registrars to comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live with anything that fixes that problem. what i'm not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in their current situation where these decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts. On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann wrote: Hi Mike, you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first place. If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle the process). Volker i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not the intent. the intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar. the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high. On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann wrote: I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted parties. If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the current process. What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes sense. I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc... Volker Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue ? In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters between themselves In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed. PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. Mit freundlichen Gr??en, Volker A. Greimann- Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander SiffrinHandelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann- legal department - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander SiffrinRegistration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. Mit freundlichen Gr??en, Volker A. Greimann- Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander SiffrinHandelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann- legal department - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander SiffrinRegistration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. Mit freundlichen Gr??en, Volker A. Greimann- Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander SiffrinHandelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann- legal department - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander SiffrinRegistration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. Mit freundlichen Gr??en, Volker A. Greimann- Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander SiffrinHandelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann- legal department - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander SiffrinRegistration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. Mit freundlichen Gr??en, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vgreimann at key-systems.net Wed Dec 4 13:05:34 2013 From: vgreimann at key-systems.net (Volker Greimann) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 14:05:34 +0100 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP In-Reply-To: References: <529E1016.5070403@key-systems.net> <529E1790.5080502@key-systems.net> <249BCFDF-7322-4596-A4F2-9B2C93CE1FCC@internode.on.net> <529EF6A5.8030606@key-systems.net> Message-ID: <529F289E.5010104@key-systems.net> Hi Kevin, I think you misunderstood me. By UDRP2 I do not mean the same process, but a new process modeled on the UDRP precedures. Of course the questions that would have to be answered by the panels would be different from those asked in the current UDRP. Basically: 1) Was the complainant the previous owner? 2) Can the previous owner show that the transfer/change of ownership occurred illegally? 3) Can the respondent demonstrate evidence to the contrary? It remains a dispute between two parties: The previous owner and the current owner. No need to drag anyone else in there as a party. Volker > Hi Volker, > I agree that ownership issues are a key to this discussion. However, > when the ownership issue only relates to a domain at a single > registrar, traditional contract principles apply and make those > situations a standard contractual dispute handled with regard to ICANN > contracts and registrant-registrar contracts. The problem falls > outside of this context when the domain is also transferred, so that > multiple parties may be involved in resolving the ownership issue and > that is the problem we are discussing?I believe that handling > unauthorized ownership changes within a registrar is not part of our > Charter. > The UDRP explicitly does not deal with who should own a domain, rather > one possible resolution of the UDRP procedure is the transfer of a > domain name. The issues that a dispute resolution panel has to deal > with is the the activities of the domain owner, the trademark rights > of the complaint filer, and the question of whether the registration > and/or use of the domain is in bad faith in light of the trademark > rights. Ownership transfer is a possible form of relief, but not an > issue that the dispute resolution panel evaluates. From the > perspective of a registry, the UDRP involves some input and the output > is who gets to own the domain. However, from the perspective of > registrars and registrants, the UDRP is all about the nature and > extent of trademark rights and the domain name in question. > IMO, the only similarity between resolving ownership issues and the > UDRP is the last step, that a form of relief may be a forced transfer > of a domain. Otherwise, the UDRP does not deal with the ownership > issues of which we are concerned. > ____________________________ > Kevin R Erdman > Reichel IP LLP > 212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280 > Indianapolis, IN 46202 > voice 317.677.0689 > fax 317.454.1349 > email kevin at reichelip.com > skype kevimundo > web www.reichelip.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > *From:* Volker Greimann > *Sent:* Wednesday, December 04, 2013 4:32 AM > *To:* Holly Raiche ; Kevin Erdman > > *Cc:* Dorrain, Kristine ; James M. > Bladel ; Mike O'Connor > ; gnso-irtpd at icann.org > > *Subject:* Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence > of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP > Hi Kevin and Holly, > > one aspect we noted previously was that the issues at hand look more > like ownership issues than transfer issues, as the exact same problems > for the registrant may exist when no transfer has taken place. > Therefore a process that focusses on unauthorized ownership changes > rather than transfers may be better to deal with the the actual problem. > > And the issue of who should own a domain is more commonly dealt with > under the UDRP (albeit under different conditions) than the TDRP, > which does not deal with such issues at all, or only as a result from > process violation. > > Volker > >> Well said Kevin >> Holly >> On 04/12/2013, at 4:57 AM, Kevin Erdman wrote: >> >>> I disagree. The UDRP is designed to correct misbehavior of a valid >>> domain name owner relating to that owner?s use of a domain name, >>> namely that the use of a domain infringes the rights of a trademark >>> owner. The basis of the complaint is not that the domain name owner >>> did not validly register the domain, but rather that the use of the >>> domain is a trademark violation. The facts and circumstances of the >>> ownership of trademark rights and the trademark infringement are >>> outside of the knowledge of the registrars and registries. The UDRP >>> procedures are designed to get the facts in front of the dispute >>> resolution panel to provide the trademark owner with a remedy to >>> trademark infringement that may be difficult or impossible to obtain >>> judicially. >>> The TDRP is about correcting a bad domain transfer, and the >>> circumstances of the transfer are mostly known to the registrars and >>> registries, but there might be some oversight that a registrar or a >>> registrant would want corrected. I think we should focus on where >>> the TDRP leaves a registrant or a registrar without a remedy, and >>> only provide more procedures for scenarios where a remedy is not >>> currently available. >>> ____________________________ >>> Kevin R Erdman >>> Reichel IP LLP >>> 212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280 >>> Indianapolis, IN 46202 >>> voice 317.677.0689 >>> fax 317.454.1349 >>> emailkevin at reichelip.com >>> skype kevimundo >>> webwww.reichelip.com >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> *From:*Dorrain, Kristine >>> *Sent:*Tuesday, December 03, 2013 12:43 PM >>> *To:*'Volker Greimann' ;James M. >>> Bladel ;Mike O'Connor >>> >>> *Cc:*gnso-irtpd at icann.org >>> *Subject:*RE: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that >>> sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant >>> role in TDRP >>> I agree. >>> *From:*Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net] >>> *Sent:*Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:41 AM >>> *To:*Dorrain, Kristine; James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor >>> *Cc:*gnso-irtpd at icann.org >>> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that >>> sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant >>> role in TDRP >>> The issue of Trademark aside, I see many more similarities between >>> the UDRP and the issue of legitimate ownership of a domain than >>> between that issue and the TDRP. After all, both are disputes >>> between parties about who should be the legitimate owner of a domain >>> name. >>> >>> So while we may not want to open the UDRP to new complaints, we may >>> want to look at creating a UDRP2 that is designed for exactly these >>> issues. >>> >>> In both cases the registrar is asked to do certain things in >>> preparation for the dispute and as its result, in both parts the >>> question of the ultimate ownership of a domain name is decided by an >>> independant panel. >>> >>> Volker >>> >>> Just for the record, I think adding a Registrants option to the >>> UDRP would be just as mucked up as adding it here. In my humble >>> opinion this warrants an entirely new policy or none at all. We >>> don?t need to reinvent the Rules?.UDRPs Rules are great. Just >>> create the Policy itself, which is entirely TM focused and would >>> be a beast to open up to non-TM holders. J >>> Kristine >>> *From:*owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org >>> [mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org]*On >>> Behalf Of*Volker Greimann >>> *Sent:*Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:09 AM >>> *To:*James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor >>> *Cc:*gnso-irtpd at icann.org >>> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that >>> sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- >>> registrant role in TDRP >>> >>> Hi James, >>> >>> excellent points there. I think the case with your example is >>> that this is not actually a case where a registrar is a party to >>> the dispute. Maybe it is a star witness required to provide the >>> information only it can provide, but not a party. Those roles >>> are better left to prior and current registrant. >>> >>> This however begs the question if ICANN should implement another >>> process for registrants to solve their disputes, or if this may >>> not be better relegated to a future re-design of the UDRP? We >>> could for example make a recommendation that the UDRP be >>> expanded to cover also domain ownership issues in any future >>> revision of that policy. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Volker >>> >>> >>> Good thoughts everyone. I think perhaps we should try to >>> capture the various scenarios in the ?Reasons for Denial? >>> area, where a registrar can legitimately deny a registrant?s >>> request to initiate a TDRP. >>> For example: if the Registrant believes that the identity of >>> the registrant is in question, or that they cannot >>> substantiate that they were ever the legitimate registrant >>> (or Transfer Contact) for the name pre-transfer. If its a >>> scenario in which the registrar has violated the IRTP, (or >>> even the shiny new TDRP we?re developing), then that is a >>> matter for Compliance and the registrar's accreditation >>> could be at-risk. But we should avoid any process where a >>> registrar is compelled to initiate a TDRP that they believe >>> is without merit, -and- be forced to pay for the proceedings. >>> Thanks? >>> J. >>> *From:*Mike O'Connor > >>> *Date:*Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 10:09 >>> *To:*Volker Greimann >> > >>> *Cc:*"gnso-irtpd at icann.org " >>> > >>> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that >>> sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- >>> registrant role in TDRP >>> hi Volker, >>> i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is >>> either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to >>> allow the registrant to transfer out) or is presumptively >>> denying the registrant due process in a dispute between >>> registrars. this was recognized as an oversight in the >>> policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs >>> was launched. >>> i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably in >>> the best position to figure out the best way to get this >>> done and i'm happy to leave that discussion up to them. i >>> like James' "put pressure on Registrars to comply" approach >>> since that seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live >>> with anything that fixes that problem. what i'm not keen on >>> the idea of leaving registrants in their current situation >>> where these decisions get made "for them" by registrars with >>> no recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts. >>> On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Mike, >>> >>> you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of >>> the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating >>> a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access as they do not >>> have such an access in the first place. >>> >>> If you want to give the registrant a way to force a >>> registrar to initiate a proceeding against another >>> registrar, that is another story, but that way needs to >>> include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and >>> a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to cover >>> the work needed to handle the process). >>> >>> Volker >>> >>> >>> i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your >>> sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's >>> not the intent. the intent is to ensure that >>> registrants are not blocked from that process by their >>> registrar. the hope here is to provide an appeal >>> mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant >>> disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine >>> setting the bar for that appeal pretty high. >>> On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP >>> process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar >>> dispute process designed to deal with process violations >>> and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between >>> registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a >>> civil conflict between two parties. This will result in >>> increased costs and work for contracted parties. >>> >>> If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there >>> will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to >>> call them out and if necessary invoke the current process. >>> >>> What we need to look at instead is if creating an >>> alternate process between registrant and former >>> registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name >>> makes sense. >>> >>> I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear >>> the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a >>> registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be >>> prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. >>> Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in >>> that case it will remain the risk of the complainant >>> that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc... >>> >>> Volker >>> >>> Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger >>> the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with >>> their registrar over an IRTP issue >>> >>> ?In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they >>> can't resolve matters between themselves >>> >>> In the case of disagreement between registrar and >>> registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide >>> a path for the registrant to take the issue to >>> Compliance >>> >>> Build minimum documentation requirements for >>> registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent >>> frivolous filings >>> >>> If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds >>> as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal >>> >>> If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it >>> -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed. >>> >>> PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, >>> WEB:www.haven2.com , HANDLE: >>> OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >>> >>> >>> >>> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >>> >>> >>> >>> Volker A. Greimann >>> >>> - Rechtsabteilung - >>> >>> >>> >>> Key-Systems GmbH >>> >>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>> >>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>> >>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>> >>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>> >>> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >>> >>> >>> >>> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >>> >>> >>> >>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >>> >>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems >>> >>> >>> >>> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >>> >>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>> >>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >>> >>> >>> >>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>> >>> www.keydrive.lu >>> >>> >>> >>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >>> >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> >>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> >>> >>> Volker A. Greimann >>> >>> - legal department - >>> >>> >>> >>> Key-Systems GmbH >>> >>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>> >>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>> >>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>> >>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>> >>> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >>> >>> >>> >>> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >>> >>> >>> >>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >>> >>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems >>> >>> >>> >>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >>> >>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>> >>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >>> >>> >>> >>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>> >>> www.keydrive.lu >>> >>> >>> >>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, >>> WEB:www.haven2.com , HANDLE: >>> OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >>> >>> >>> >>> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >>> >>> >>> >>> Volker A. Greimann >>> >>> - Rechtsabteilung - >>> >>> >>> >>> Key-Systems GmbH >>> >>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>> >>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>> >>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>> >>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>> >>> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >>> >>> >>> >>> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >>> >>> >>> >>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >>> >>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems >>> >>> >>> >>> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >>> >>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>> >>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >>> >>> >>> >>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>> >>> www.keydrive.lu >>> >>> >>> >>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >>> >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> >>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> >>> >>> Volker A. Greimann >>> >>> - legal department - >>> >>> >>> >>> Key-Systems GmbH >>> >>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>> >>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>> >>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>> >>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>> >>> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >>> >>> >>> >>> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >>> >>> >>> >>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >>> >>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems >>> >>> >>> >>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >>> >>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>> >>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >>> >>> >>> >>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>> >>> www.keydrive.lu >>> >>> >>> >>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB:www.haven2.com >>> , HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, >>> Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >>> >>> >>> >>> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >>> >>> >>> >>> Volker A. Greimann >>> >>> - Rechtsabteilung - >>> >>> >>> >>> Key-Systems GmbH >>> >>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>> >>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>> >>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>> >>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>> >>> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >>> >>> >>> >>> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net >>> >>> www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >>> >>> >>> >>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >>> >>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >>> >>> www.twitter.com/key_systems >>> >>> >>> >>> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >>> >>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>> >>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >>> >>> >>> >>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>> >>> www.keydrive.lu >>> >>> >>> >>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >>> >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> >>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> >>> >>> Volker A. Greimann >>> >>> - legal department - >>> >>> >>> >>> Key-Systems GmbH >>> >>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>> >>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>> >>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>> >>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>> >>> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >>> >>> >>> >>> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net >>> >>> www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >>> >>> >>> >>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >>> >>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >>> >>> www.twitter.com/key_systems >>> >>> >>> >>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >>> >>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>> >>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >>> >>> >>> >>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>> >>> www.keydrive.lu >>> >>> >>> >>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >>> >>> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >>> >>> Volker A. Greimann >>> - Rechtsabteilung - >>> >>> Key-Systems GmbH >>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >>> >>> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net >>> www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >>> >>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >>> www.twitter.com/key_systems >>> >>> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >>> >>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>> www.keydrive.lu >>> >>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >>> >>> -------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Volker A. Greimann >>> - legal department - >>> >>> Key-Systems GmbH >>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >>> >>> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net >>> www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >>> >>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >>> www.twitter.com/key_systems >>> >>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >>> >>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>> www.keydrive.lu >>> >>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >>> >>> >>> > > > -- > Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. > > Mit freundlichen Gr??en, > > Volker A. Greimann > - Rechtsabteilung - > > Key-Systems GmbH > Im Oberen Werk 1 > 66386 St. Ingbert > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 > Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net > > Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net > www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com > > Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: > www.facebook.com/KeySystems > www.twitter.com/key_systems > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin > Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken > Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP > www.keydrive.lu > > Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. > > -------------------------------------------- > > Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. > > Best regards, > > Volker A. Greimann > - legal department - > > Key-Systems GmbH > Im Oberen Werk 1 > 66386 St. Ingbert > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 > Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net > > Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net > www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com > > Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: > www.facebook.com/KeySystems > www.twitter.com/key_systems > > CEO: Alexander Siffrin > Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken > V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP > www.keydrive.lu > > This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. > > > -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. Mit freundlichen Gr??en, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From krerdman at live.com Wed Dec 4 13:38:58 2013 From: krerdman at live.com (Kevin Erdman) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 08:38:58 -0500 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP In-Reply-To: <529F289E.5010104@key-systems.net> References: <529E1016.5070403@key-systems.net> <529E1790.5080502@key-systems.net> <249BCFDF-7322-4596-A4F2-9B2C93CE1FCC@internode.on.net> <529EF6A5.8030606@key-systems.net> <529F289E.5010104@key-systems.net> Message-ID: Hi Volker, Thanks for your clarification, and I understand your position and I disagree with it, for two reasons. First reason is the initial impetus to go down this line was domain hijacking, registrar #1 gets a fraudulent authorization that ends up with a new party in control of a domain at a new registrar. In this case, both real parties and both registrars need to be involved because all have potential liability. Second reason is that UDRP2 for domain ownership disputes might be a good idea in general, but that idea is beyond the scope of our Working Group's charter. We might include this idea as a potential new area to develop, but just not here. _________________________________ Kevin R Erdman cell 317.289.3934 Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 4, 2013, at 8:09, "Volker Greimann" wrote: > > Hi Kevin, > > I think you misunderstood me. By UDRP2 I do not mean the same process, but a new process modeled on the UDRP precedures. Of course the questions that would have to be answered by the panels would be different from those asked in the current UDRP. > > Basically: > 1) Was the complainant the previous owner? > 2) Can the previous owner show that the transfer/change of ownership occurred illegally? > 3) Can the respondent demonstrate evidence to the contrary? > > It remains a dispute between two parties: The previous owner and the current owner. > No need to drag anyone else in there as a party. > > Volker >> Hi Volker, >> >> I agree that ownership issues are a key to this discussion. However, when the ownership issue only relates to a domain at a single registrar, traditional contract principles apply and make those situations a standard contractual dispute handled with regard to ICANN contracts and registrant-registrar contracts. The problem falls outside of this context when the domain is also transferred, so that multiple parties may be involved in resolving the ownership issue and that is the problem we are discussing?I believe that handling unauthorized ownership changes within a registrar is not part of our Charter. >> >> The UDRP explicitly does not deal with who should own a domain, rather one possible resolution of the UDRP procedure is the transfer of a domain name. The issues that a dispute resolution panel has to deal with is the the activities of the domain owner, the trademark rights of the complaint filer, and the question of whether the registration and/or use of the domain is in bad faith in light of the trademark rights. Ownership transfer is a possible form of relief, but not an issue that the dispute resolution panel evaluates. From the perspective of a registry, the UDRP involves some input and the output is who gets to own the domain. However, from the perspective of registrars and registrants, the UDRP is all about the nature and extent of trademark rights and the domain name in question. >> >> IMO, the only similarity between resolving ownership issues and the UDRP is the last step, that a form of relief may be a forced transfer of a domain. Otherwise, the UDRP does not deal with the ownership issues of which we are concerned. >> ____________________________ >> Kevin R Erdman >> Reichel IP LLP >> 212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280 >> Indianapolis, IN 46202 >> voice 317.677.0689 >> fax 317.454.1349 >> email kevin at reichelip.com >> skype kevimundo >> web www.reichelip.com >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> From: Volker Greimann >> Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 4:32 AM >> To: Holly Raiche ; Kevin Erdman >> Cc: Dorrain, Kristine ; James M. Bladel ; Mike O'Connor ; gnso-irtpd at icann.org >> Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP >> >> Hi Kevin and Holly, >> >> one aspect we noted previously was that the issues at hand look more like ownership issues than transfer issues, as the exact same problems for the registrant may exist when no transfer has taken place. Therefore a process that focusses on unauthorized ownership changes rather than transfers may be better to deal with the the actual problem. >> >> And the issue of who should own a domain is more commonly dealt with under the UDRP (albeit under different conditions) than the TDRP, which does not deal with such issues at all, or only as a result from process violation. >> >> Volker >> >>> Well said Kevin >>> >>> Holly >>>> On 04/12/2013, at 4:57 AM, Kevin Erdman wrote: >>>> >>>> I disagree. The UDRP is designed to correct misbehavior of a valid domain name owner relating to that owner?s use of a domain name, namely that the use of a domain infringes the rights of a trademark owner. The basis of the complaint is not that the domain name owner did not validly register the domain, but rather that the use of the domain is a trademark violation. The facts and circumstances of the ownership of trademark rights and the trademark infringement are outside of the knowledge of the registrars and registries. The UDRP procedures are designed to get the facts in front of the dispute resolution panel to provide the trademark owner with a remedy to trademark infringement that may be difficult or impossible to obtain judicially. >>>> >>>> The TDRP is about correcting a bad domain transfer, and the circumstances of the transfer are mostly known to the registrars and registries, but there might be some oversight that a registrar or a registrant would want corrected. I think we should focus on where the TDRP leaves a registrant or a registrar without a remedy, and only provide more procedures for scenarios where a remedy is not currently available. >>>> ____________________________ >>>> Kevin R Erdman >>>> Reichel IP LLP >>>> 212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280 >>>> Indianapolis, IN 46202 >>>> voice 317.677.0689 >>>> fax 317.454.1349 >>>> email kevin at reichelip.com >>>> skype kevimundo >>>> web www.reichelip.com >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> From: Dorrain, Kristine >>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 12:43 PM >>>> To: 'Volker Greimann' ; James M. Bladel ; Mike O'Connor >>>> Cc: gnso-irtpd at icann.org >>>> Subject: RE: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP >>>> >>>> I agree. >>>> >>>> From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net] >>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:41 AM >>>> To: Dorrain, Kristine; James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor >>>> Cc: gnso-irtpd at icann.org >>>> Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP >>>> >>>> The issue of Trademark aside, I see many more similarities between the UDRP and the issue of legitimate ownership of a domain than between that issue and the TDRP. After all, both are disputes between parties about who should be the legitimate owner of a domain name. >>>> >>>> So while we may not want to open the UDRP to new complaints, we may want to look at creating a UDRP2 that is designed for exactly these issues. >>>> >>>> In both cases the registrar is asked to do certain things in preparation for the dispute and as its result, in both parts the question of the ultimate ownership of a domain name is decided by an independant panel. >>>> >>>> Volker >>>> Just for the record, I think adding a Registrants option to the UDRP would be just as mucked up as adding it here. In my humble opinion this warrants an entirely new policy or none at all. We don?t need to reinvent the Rules?.UDRPs Rules are great. Just create the Policy itself, which is entirely TM focused and would be a beast to open up to non-TM holders. J >>>> >>>> Kristine >>>> >>>> From: owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org [mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann >>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:09 AM >>>> To: James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor >>>> Cc: gnso-irtpd at icann.org >>>> Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP >>>> >>>> Hi James, >>>> >>>> excellent points there. I think the case with your example is that this is not actually a case where a registrar is a party to the dispute. Maybe it is a star witness required to provide the information only it can provide, but not a party. Those roles are better left to prior and current registrant. >>>> >>>> This however begs the question if ICANN should implement another process for registrants to solve their disputes, or if this may not be better relegated to a future re-design of the UDRP? We could for example make a recommendation that the UDRP be expanded to cover also domain ownership issues in any future revision of that policy. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Volker >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Good thoughts everyone. I think perhaps we should try to capture the various scenarios in the ?Reasons for Denial? area, where a registrar can legitimately deny a registrant?s request to initiate a TDRP. >>>> >>>> For example: if the Registrant believes that the identity of the registrant is in question, or that they cannot substantiate that they were ever the legitimate registrant (or Transfer Contact) for the name pre-transfer. If its a scenario in which the registrar has violated the IRTP, (or even the shiny new TDRP we?re developing), then that is a matter for Compliance and the registrar's accreditation could be at-risk. But we should avoid any process where a registrar is compelled to initiate a TDRP that they believe is without merit, -and- be forced to pay for the proceedings. >>>> >>>> Thanks? >>>> >>>> J. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Mike O'Connor >>>> Date: Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 10:09 >>>> To: Volker Greimann >>>> Cc: "gnso-irtpd at icann.org" >>>> Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP >>>> >>>> hi Volker, >>>> >>>> i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to transfer out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due process in a dispute between registrars. this was recognized as an oversight in the policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched. >>>> >>>> i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably in the best position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to leave that discussion up to them. i like James' "put pressure on Registrars to comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live with anything that fixes that problem. what i'm not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in their current situation where these decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Mike, >>>> >>>> you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first place. >>>> >>>> If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle the process). >>>> >>>> Volker >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not the intent. the intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar. the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted parties. >>>> >>>> If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the current process. >>>> >>>> What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes sense. >>>> >>>> I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc... >>>> >>>> Volker >>>> >>>> Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue >>>> >>>> ? In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters between themselves >>>> >>>> In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance >>>> >>>> Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings >>>> >>>> If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal >>>> >>>> If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >>>> >>>> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >>>> >>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>> - Rechtsabteilung - >>>> >>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>> >>>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >>>> >>>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems >>>> >>>> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >>>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >>>> >>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>> >>>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>> - legal department - >>>> >>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>> >>>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >>>> >>>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems >>>> >>>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >>>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >>>> >>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>> >>>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >>>> >>>> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >>>> >>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>> - Rechtsabteilung - >>>> >>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>> >>>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >>>> >>>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems >>>> >>>> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >>>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >>>> >>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>> >>>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>> - legal department - >>>> >>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>> >>>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >>>> >>>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems >>>> >>>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >>>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >>>> >>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>> >>>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >>>> >>>> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >>>> >>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>> - Rechtsabteilung - >>>> >>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>> >>>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net >>>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >>>> >>>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems >>>> >>>> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >>>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >>>> >>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>> >>>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>> - legal department - >>>> >>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>> >>>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net >>>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >>>> >>>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems >>>> >>>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >>>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >>>> >>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>> >>>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >>>> >>>> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >>>> >>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>> - Rechtsabteilung - >>>> >>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>> >>>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net >>>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >>>> >>>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems >>>> >>>> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >>>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >>>> >>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>> >>>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>> - legal department - >>>> >>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>> >>>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net >>>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >>>> >>>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems >>>> >>>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >>>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >>>> >>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>> >>>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >> >> >> -- >> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >> >> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >> >> Volker A. Greimann >> - Rechtsabteilung - >> >> Key-Systems GmbH >> Im Oberen Werk 1 >> 66386 St. Ingbert >> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >> >> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net >> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >> >> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >> www.twitter.com/key_systems >> >> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >> >> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >> www.keydrive.lu >> >> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >> >> -------------------------------------------- >> >> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Volker A. Greimann >> - legal department - >> >> Key-Systems GmbH >> Im Oberen Werk 1 >> 66386 St. Ingbert >> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >> >> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net >> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >> >> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >> www.twitter.com/key_systems >> >> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >> >> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >> www.keydrive.lu >> >> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >> >> >> > > > -- > Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. > > Mit freundlichen Gr??en, > > Volker A. Greimann > - Rechtsabteilung - > > Key-Systems GmbH > Im Oberen Werk 1 > 66386 St. Ingbert > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 > Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net > > Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net > www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com > > Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: > www.facebook.com/KeySystems > www.twitter.com/key_systems > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin > Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken > Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP > www.keydrive.lu > > Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. > > -------------------------------------------- > > Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. > > Best regards, > > Volker A. Greimann > - legal department - > > Key-Systems GmbH > Im Oberen Werk 1 > 66386 St. Ingbert > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 > Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net > > Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net > www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com > > Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: > www.facebook.com/KeySystems > www.twitter.com/key_systems > > CEO: Alexander Siffrin > Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken > V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP > www.keydrive.lu > > This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vgreimann at key-systems.net Wed Dec 4 14:03:11 2013 From: vgreimann at key-systems.net (Volker Greimann) Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 15:03:11 +0100 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP In-Reply-To: References: <529E1016.5070403@key-systems.net> <529E1790.5080502@key-systems.net> <249BCFDF-7322-4596-A4F2-9B2C93CE1FCC@internode.on.net> <529EF6A5.8030606@key-systems.net> <529F289E.5010104@key-systems.net> Message-ID: <529F361F.3020701@key-systems.net> Am 04.12.2013 14:38, schrieb Kevin Erdman: > Hi Volker, > > Thanks for your clarification, and I understand your position and I > disagree with it, for two reasons. > > First reason is the initial impetus to go down this line was domain > hijacking, registrar #1 gets a fraudulent authorization that ends up > with a new party in control of a domain at a new registrar. In this > case, both real parties and both registrars need to be involved > because all have potential liability. The current registrar is involved in the UDRP as well, and required to provide certain information, assist with the transfer and lock and unlock the domain name. Further, the fact of whether a transfer authorization in case of a hijacking is fraudulent or not does not even matter IIRC as the transfer process usually is not violated in such cases, but the TDRP exclusively deals with policy violations. > > Second reason is that UDRP2 for domain ownership disputes might be a > good idea in general, but that idea is beyond the scope of our Working > Group's charter. We might include this idea as a potential new area > to develop, but just not here. If it is outside our scope, we can still recommend this be looked at in a future UDRP reform or new PDP if we agree that such a process would be the better way to deal with the issue. I disagree with the notion that we should force a registrar to charge into a dispute, at its own risk, for cases it sees as having no merit. There is a reason why the current TDRP is an elective method and I see no reason to change that. From the TDRP: (http://www.icann.org/en/help/dndr/tdrp) "In cases where this is unsuccessful and where a /registrar elects to file /a dispute, the following procedures apply. " and "/Transfer dispute resolution fees can be substantial/" > _________________________________ > Kevin R Erdman > > cell 317.289.3934 > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Dec 4, 2013, at 8:09, "Volker Greimann" > wrote: > >> Hi Kevin, >> >> I think you misunderstood me. By UDRP2 I do not mean the same >> process, but a new process modeled on the UDRP precedures. Of course >> the questions that would have to be answered by the panels would be >> different from those asked in the current UDRP. >> >> Basically: >> 1) Was the complainant the previous owner? >> 2) Can the previous owner show that the transfer/change of ownership >> occurred illegally? >> 3) Can the respondent demonstrate evidence to the contrary? >> >> It remains a dispute between two parties: The previous owner and the >> current owner. >> No need to drag anyone else in there as a party. >> >> Volker >>> Hi Volker, >>> I agree that ownership issues are a key to this discussion. >>> However, when the ownership issue only relates to a domain at a >>> single registrar, traditional contract principles apply and make >>> those situations a standard contractual dispute handled with regard >>> to ICANN contracts and registrant-registrar contracts. The problem >>> falls outside of this context when the domain is also transferred, >>> so that multiple parties may be involved in resolving the ownership >>> issue and that is the problem we are discussing?I believe that >>> handling unauthorized ownership changes within a registrar is not >>> part of our Charter. >>> The UDRP explicitly does not deal with who should own a domain, >>> rather one possible resolution of the UDRP procedure is the transfer >>> of a domain name. The issues that a dispute resolution panel has to >>> deal with is the the activities of the domain owner, the trademark >>> rights of the complaint filer, and the question of whether the >>> registration and/or use of the domain is in bad faith in light of >>> the trademark rights. Ownership transfer is a possible form of >>> relief, but not an issue that the dispute resolution panel >>> evaluates. From the perspective of a registry, the UDRP involves >>> some input and the output is who gets to own the domain. However, >>> from the perspective of registrars and registrants, the UDRP is all >>> about the nature and extent of trademark rights and the domain name >>> in question. >>> IMO, the only similarity between resolving ownership issues and the >>> UDRP is the last step, that a form of relief may be a forced >>> transfer of a domain. Otherwise, the UDRP does not deal with the >>> ownership issues of which we are concerned. >>> ____________________________ >>> Kevin R Erdman >>> Reichel IP LLP >>> 212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280 >>> Indianapolis, IN 46202 >>> voice 317.677.0689 >>> fax 317.454.1349 >>> email kevin at reichelip.com >>> skype kevimundo >>> web www.reichelip.com >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> *From:* Volker Greimann >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 04, 2013 4:32 AM >>> *To:* Holly Raiche ; Kevin Erdman >>> >>> *Cc:* Dorrain, Kristine ; James M. >>> Bladel ; Mike O'Connor >>> ; gnso-irtpd at icann.org >>> >>> *Subject:* Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that >>> sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant >>> role in TDRP >>> Hi Kevin and Holly, >>> >>> one aspect we noted previously was that the issues at hand look more >>> like ownership issues than transfer issues, as the exact same >>> problems for the registrant may exist when no transfer has taken >>> place. Therefore a process that focusses on unauthorized ownership >>> changes rather than transfers may be better to deal with the the >>> actual problem. >>> >>> And the issue of who should own a domain is more commonly dealt with >>> under the UDRP (albeit under different conditions) than the TDRP, >>> which does not deal with such issues at all, or only as a result >>> from process violation. >>> >>> Volker >>> >>>> Well said Kevin >>>> Holly >>>> On 04/12/2013, at 4:57 AM, Kevin Erdman wrote: >>>> >>>>> I disagree. The UDRP is designed to correct misbehavior of a >>>>> valid domain name owner relating to that owner?s use of a domain >>>>> name, namely that the use of a domain infringes the rights of a >>>>> trademark owner. The basis of the complaint is not that the domain >>>>> name owner did not validly register the domain, but rather that >>>>> the use of the domain is a trademark violation. The facts and >>>>> circumstances of the ownership of trademark rights and the >>>>> trademark infringement are outside of the knowledge of the >>>>> registrars and registries. The UDRP procedures are designed to >>>>> get the facts in front of the dispute resolution panel to provide >>>>> the trademark owner with a remedy to trademark infringement that >>>>> may be difficult or impossible to obtain judicially. >>>>> The TDRP is about correcting a bad domain transfer, and the >>>>> circumstances of the transfer are mostly known to the registrars >>>>> and registries, but there might be some oversight that a registrar >>>>> or a registrant would want corrected. I think we should focus on >>>>> where the TDRP leaves a registrant or a registrar without a >>>>> remedy, and only provide more procedures for scenarios where a >>>>> remedy is not currently available. >>>>> ____________________________ >>>>> Kevin R Erdman >>>>> Reichel IP LLP >>>>> 212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280 >>>>> Indianapolis, IN 46202 >>>>> voice 317.677.0689 >>>>> fax 317.454.1349 >>>>> emailkevin at reichelip.com >>>>> skype kevimundo >>>>> webwww.reichelip.com >>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> *From:*Dorrain, Kristine >>>>> *Sent:*Tuesday, December 03, 2013 12:43 PM >>>>> *To:*'Volker Greimann' ;James M. >>>>> Bladel ;Mike O'Connor >>>>> >>>>> *Cc:*gnso-irtpd at icann.org >>>>> *Subject:*RE: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that >>>>> sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- >>>>> registrant role in TDRP >>>>> I agree. >>>>> *From:*Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net] >>>>> *Sent:*Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:41 AM >>>>> *To:*Dorrain, Kristine; James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor >>>>> *Cc:*gnso-irtpd at icann.org >>>>> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that >>>>> sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- >>>>> registrant role in TDRP >>>>> The issue of Trademark aside, I see many more similarities between >>>>> the UDRP and the issue of legitimate ownership of a domain than >>>>> between that issue and the TDRP. After all, both are disputes >>>>> between parties about who should be the legitimate owner of a >>>>> domain name. >>>>> >>>>> So while we may not want to open the UDRP to new complaints, we >>>>> may want to look at creating a UDRP2 that is designed for exactly >>>>> these issues. >>>>> >>>>> In both cases the registrar is asked to do certain things in >>>>> preparation for the dispute and as its result, in both parts the >>>>> question of the ultimate ownership of a domain name is decided by >>>>> an independant panel. >>>>> >>>>> Volker >>>>> >>>>> Just for the record, I think adding a Registrants option to >>>>> the UDRP would be just as mucked up as adding it here. In my >>>>> humble opinion this warrants an entirely new policy or none at >>>>> all. We don?t need to reinvent the Rules?.UDRPs Rules are >>>>> great. Just create the Policy itself, which is entirely TM >>>>> focused and would be a beast to open up to non-TM holders. J >>>>> Kristine >>>>> *From:*owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org >>>>> [mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org]*On >>>>> Behalf Of*Volker Greimann >>>>> *Sent:*Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:09 AM >>>>> *To:*James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor >>>>> *Cc:*gnso-irtpd at icann.org >>>>> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that >>>>> sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- >>>>> registrant role in TDRP >>>>> >>>>> Hi James, >>>>> >>>>> excellent points there. I think the case with your example is >>>>> that this is not actually a case where a registrar is a party >>>>> to the dispute. Maybe it is a star witness required to provide >>>>> the information only it can provide, but not a party. Those >>>>> roles are better left to prior and current registrant. >>>>> >>>>> This however begs the question if ICANN should implement >>>>> another process for registrants to solve their disputes, or if >>>>> this may not be better relegated to a future re-design of the >>>>> UDRP? We could for example make a recommendation that the UDRP >>>>> be expanded to cover also domain ownership issues in any >>>>> future revision of that policy. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Volker >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Good thoughts everyone. I think perhaps we should try to >>>>> capture the various scenarios in the ?Reasons for Denial? >>>>> area, where a registrar can legitimately deny a >>>>> registrant?s request to initiate a TDRP. >>>>> For example: if the Registrant believes that the identity >>>>> of the registrant is in question, or that they cannot >>>>> substantiate that they were ever the legitimate registrant >>>>> (or Transfer Contact) for the name pre-transfer. If its a >>>>> scenario in which the registrar has violated the IRTP, (or >>>>> even the shiny new TDRP we?re developing), then that is a >>>>> matter for Compliance and the registrar's accreditation >>>>> could be at-risk. But we should avoid any process where a >>>>> registrar is compelled to initiate a TDRP that they >>>>> believe is without merit, -and- be forced to pay for the >>>>> proceedings. >>>>> Thanks? >>>>> J. >>>>> *From:*Mike O'Connor >>>> > >>>>> *Date:*Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 10:09 >>>>> *To:*Volker Greimann >>>> > >>>>> *Cc:*"gnso-irtpd at icann.org " >>>>> > >>>>> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of >>>>> that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now >>>>> -- registrant role in TDRP >>>>> hi Volker, >>>>> i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is >>>>> either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to >>>>> allow the registrant to transfer out) or is presumptively >>>>> denying the registrant due process in a dispute between >>>>> registrars. this was recognized as an oversight in the >>>>> policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP >>>>> PDPs was launched. >>>>> i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably in >>>>> the best position to figure out the best way to get this >>>>> done and i'm happy to leave that discussion up to them. i >>>>> like James' "put pressure on Registrars to comply" >>>>> approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler one but i >>>>> can live with anything that fixes that problem. what i'm >>>>> not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in their >>>>> current situation where these decisions get made "for >>>>> them" by registrars with no recourse for trapped >>>>> registrants except worldwide courts. >>>>> On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann >>>>> >>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi Mike, >>>>> >>>>> you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries >>>>> of the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not >>>>> initiating a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access >>>>> as they do not have such an access in the first place. >>>>> >>>>> If you want to give the registrant a way to force a >>>>> registrar to initiate a proceeding against another >>>>> registrar, that is another story, but that way needs to >>>>> include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs >>>>> and a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to >>>>> cover the work needed to handle the process). >>>>> >>>>> Volker >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> i think the key distinction i want to draw is with >>>>> your sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. >>>>> that's not the intent. the intent is to ensure that >>>>> registrants are not blocked from that process by their >>>>> registrar. the hope here is to provide an appeal >>>>> mechanism in those cases where registrar and >>>>> registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted. >>>>> but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high. >>>>> On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann >>>>> >>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I still feel that giving registrants access to the >>>>> TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar >>>>> dispute process designed to deal with process >>>>> violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute >>>>> process between registrants, dragging registrars and >>>>> registries into a civil conflict between two parties. >>>>> This will result in increased costs and work for >>>>> contracted parties. >>>>> >>>>> If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there >>>>> will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars >>>>> to call them out and if necessary invoke the current >>>>> process. >>>>> >>>>> What we need to look at instead is if creating an >>>>> alternate process between registrant and former >>>>> registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name >>>>> makes sense. >>>>> >>>>> I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear >>>>> the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a >>>>> registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be >>>>> prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. >>>>> Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in >>>>> that case it will remain the risk of the complainant >>>>> that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc... >>>>> >>>>> Volker >>>>> >>>>> Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger >>>>> the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with >>>>> their registrar over an IRTP issue >>>>> >>>>> ?In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they >>>>> can't resolve matters between themselves >>>>> >>>>> In the case of disagreement between registrar and >>>>> registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, >>>>> provide a path for the registrant to take the >>>>> issue to Compliance >>>>> >>>>> Build minimum documentation requirements for >>>>> registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent >>>>> frivolous filings >>>>> >>>>> If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP >>>>> proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, >>>>> as normal >>>>> >>>>> If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it >>>>> -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to >>>>> proceed. >>>>> >>>>> PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, >>>>> WEB:www.haven2.com , >>>>> HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, >>>>> LinkedIn, etc.) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>>> >>>>> - Rechtsabteilung - >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>>> >>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>>> >>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>>> >>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>>> >>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>>> >>>>> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >>>>> >>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >>>>> >>>>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>>> >>>>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>>> >>>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best regards, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>>> >>>>> - legal department - >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>>> >>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>>> >>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>>> >>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>>> >>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>>> >>>>> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >>>>> >>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >>>>> >>>>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>>> >>>>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>>> >>>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, >>>>> WEB:www.haven2.com , HANDLE: >>>>> OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>>> >>>>> - Rechtsabteilung - >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>>> >>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>>> >>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>>> >>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>>> >>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>>> >>>>> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >>>>> >>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >>>>> >>>>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>>> >>>>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>>> >>>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best regards, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>>> >>>>> - legal department - >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>>> >>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>>> >>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>>> >>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>>> >>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>>> >>>>> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >>>>> >>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >>>>> >>>>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>>> >>>>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>>> >>>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB:www.haven2.com >>>>> , HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for >>>>> Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Volker A. 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You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >>>>> >>>>> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >>>>> >>>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>>> - Rechtsabteilung - >>>>> >>>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>>> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>>> >>>>> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net >>>>> www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >>>>> >>>>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >>>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems >>>>> >>>>> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >>>>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >>>>> >>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>>> >>>>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >>>>> >>>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >>>>> >>>>> Best regards, >>>>> >>>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>>> - legal department - >>>>> >>>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>>> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>>> >>>>> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net >>>>> www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >>>>> >>>>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >>>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems >>>>> >>>>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >>>>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >>>>> >>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>>> >>>>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >>> >>> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >>> >>> Volker A. Greimann >>> - Rechtsabteilung - >>> >>> Key-Systems GmbH >>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >>> >>> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net >>> www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >>> >>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >>> www.twitter.com/key_systems >>> >>> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >>> >>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>> www.keydrive.lu >>> >>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >>> >>> -------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Volker A. Greimann >>> - legal department - >>> >>> Key-Systems GmbH >>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >>> >>> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net >>> www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >>> >>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >>> www.twitter.com/key_systems >>> >>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >>> >>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>> www.keydrive.lu >>> >>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >> >> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >> >> Volker A. Greimann >> - Rechtsabteilung - >> >> Key-Systems GmbH >> Im Oberen Werk 1 >> 66386 St. Ingbert >> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >> >> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net >> www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >> >> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >> www.twitter.com/key_systems >> >> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >> >> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >> www.keydrive.lu >> >> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >> >> -------------------------------------------- >> >> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Volker A. Greimann >> - legal department - >> >> Key-Systems GmbH >> Im Oberen Werk 1 >> 66386 St. Ingbert >> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >> >> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net >> www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >> >> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >> www.twitter.com/key_systems >> >> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >> >> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >> www.keydrive.lu >> >> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >> >> >> -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. Mit freundlichen Gr??en, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mike at haven2.com Thu Dec 5 00:24:28 2013 From: mike at haven2.com (Mike O'Connor) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 18:24:28 -0600 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP In-Reply-To: <529F361F.3020701@key-systems.net> References: <529E1016.5070403@key-systems.net> <529E1790.5080502@key-systems.net> <249BCFDF-7322-4596-A4F2-9B2C93CE1FCC@internode.on.net> <529EF6A5.8030606@key-systems.net> <529F289E.5010104@key-systems.net> <529F361F.3020701@key-systems.net> Message-ID: <6C977942-9725-461C-821C-CA1FBEAC7728@haven2.com> whew? good, but bewildering, discussion. so Volker, what do we do about the case where the registrar and the registrant disagree about the merits? where does the registrant go to get that disagreement resolved? m On Dec 4, 2013, at 8:03 AM, Volker Greimann wrote: > Am 04.12.2013 14:38, schrieb Kevin Erdman: >> Hi Volker, >> >> Thanks for your clarification, and I understand your position and I disagree with it, for two reasons. >> >> First reason is the initial impetus to go down this line was domain hijacking, registrar #1 gets a fraudulent authorization that ends up with a new party in control of a domain at a new registrar. In this case, both real parties and both registrars need to be involved because all have potential liability. > The current registrar is involved in the UDRP as well, and required to provide certain information, assist with the transfer and lock and unlock the domain name. > Further, the fact of whether a transfer authorization in case of a hijacking is fraudulent or not does not even matter IIRC as the transfer process usually is not violated in such cases, but the TDRP exclusively deals with policy violations. >> >> Second reason is that UDRP2 for domain ownership disputes might be a good idea in general, but that idea is beyond the scope of our Working Group's charter. We might include this idea as a potential new area to develop, but just not here. > If it is outside our scope, we can still recommend this be looked at in a future UDRP reform or new PDP if we agree that such a process would be the better way to deal with the issue. > > I disagree with the notion that we should force a registrar to charge into a dispute, at its own risk, for cases it sees as having no merit. There is a reason why the current TDRP is an elective method and I see no reason to change that. > > From the TDRP: > (http://www.icann.org/en/help/dndr/tdrp) > "In cases where this is unsuccessful and where a registrar elects to file a dispute, the following procedures apply. " > and > "Transfer dispute resolution fees can be substantial" > > > >> _________________________________ >> Kevin R Erdman >> >> cell 317.289.3934 >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Dec 4, 2013, at 8:09, "Volker Greimann" wrote: >> >>> Hi Kevin, >>> >>> I think you misunderstood me. By UDRP2 I do not mean the same process, but a new process modeled on the UDRP precedures. Of course the questions that would have to be answered by the panels would be different from those asked in the current UDRP. >>> >>> Basically: >>> 1) Was the complainant the previous owner? >>> 2) Can the previous owner show that the transfer/change of ownership occurred illegally? >>> 3) Can the respondent demonstrate evidence to the contrary? >>> >>> It remains a dispute between two parties: The previous owner and the current owner. >>> No need to drag anyone else in there as a party. >>> >>> Volker >>>> Hi Volker, >>>> >>>> I agree that ownership issues are a key to this discussion. However, when the ownership issue only relates to a domain at a single registrar, traditional contract principles apply and make those situations a standard contractual dispute handled with regard to ICANN contracts and registrant-registrar contracts. The problem falls outside of this context when the domain is also transferred, so that multiple parties may be involved in resolving the ownership issue and that is the problem we are discussing?I believe that handling unauthorized ownership changes within a registrar is not part of our Charter. >>>> >>>> The UDRP explicitly does not deal with who should own a domain, rather one possible resolution of the UDRP procedure is the transfer of a domain name. The issues that a dispute resolution panel has to deal with is the the activities of the domain owner, the trademark rights of the complaint filer, and the question of whether the registration and/or use of the domain is in bad faith in light of the trademark rights. Ownership transfer is a possible form of relief, but not an issue that the dispute resolution panel evaluates. From the perspective of a registry, the UDRP involves some input and the output is who gets to own the domain. However, from the perspective of registrars and registrants, the UDRP is all about the nature and extent of trademark rights and the domain name in question. >>>> >>>> IMO, the only similarity between resolving ownership issues and the UDRP is the last step, that a form of relief may be a forced transfer of a domain. Otherwise, the UDRP does not deal with the ownership issues of which we are concerned. >>>> ____________________________ >>>> Kevin R Erdman >>>> Reichel IP LLP >>>> 212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280 >>>> Indianapolis, IN 46202 >>>> voice 317.677.0689 >>>> fax 317.454.1349 >>>> email kevin at reichelip.com >>>> skype kevimundo >>>> web www.reichelip.com >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> From: Volker Greimann >>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 4:32 AM >>>> To: Holly Raiche ; Kevin Erdman >>>> Cc: Dorrain, Kristine ; James M. Bladel ; Mike O'Connor ; gnso-irtpd at icann.org >>>> Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP >>>> >>>> Hi Kevin and Holly, >>>> >>>> one aspect we noted previously was that the issues at hand look more like ownership issues than transfer issues, as the exact same problems for the registrant may exist when no transfer has taken place. Therefore a process that focusses on unauthorized ownership changes rather than transfers may be better to deal with the the actual problem. >>>> >>>> And the issue of who should own a domain is more commonly dealt with under the UDRP (albeit under different conditions) than the TDRP, which does not deal with such issues at all, or only as a result from process violation. >>>> >>>> Volker >>>> >>>>> Well said Kevin >>>>> >>>>> Holly >>>>> On 04/12/2013, at 4:57 AM, Kevin Erdman wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I disagree. The UDRP is designed to correct misbehavior of a valid domain name owner relating to that owner?s use of a domain name, namely that the use of a domain infringes the rights of a trademark owner. The basis of the complaint is not that the domain name owner did not validly register the domain, but rather that the use of the domain is a trademark violation. The facts and circumstances of the ownership of trademark rights and the trademark infringement are outside of the knowledge of the registrars and registries. The UDRP procedures are designed to get the facts in front of the dispute resolution panel to provide the trademark owner with a remedy to trademark infringement that may be difficult or impossible to obtain judicially. >>>>>> >>>>>> The TDRP is about correcting a bad domain transfer, and the circumstances of the transfer are mostly known to the registrars and registries, but there might be some oversight that a registrar or a registrant would want corrected. I think we should focus on where the TDRP leaves a registrant or a registrar without a remedy, and only provide more procedures for scenarios where a remedy is not currently available. >>>>>> ____________________________ >>>>>> Kevin R Erdman >>>>>> Reichel IP LLP >>>>>> 212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280 >>>>>> Indianapolis, IN 46202 >>>>>> voice 317.677.0689 >>>>>> fax 317.454.1349 >>>>>> email kevin at reichelip.com >>>>>> skype kevimundo >>>>>> web www.reichelip.com >>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> From: Dorrain, Kristine >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 12:43 PM >>>>>> To: 'Volker Greimann' ; James M. Bladel ; Mike O'Connor >>>>>> Cc: gnso-irtpd at icann.org >>>>>> Subject: RE: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP >>>>>> >>>>>> I agree. >>>>>> >>>>>> From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net] >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:41 AM >>>>>> To: Dorrain, Kristine; James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor >>>>>> Cc: gnso-irtpd at icann.org >>>>>> Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP >>>>>> >>>>>> The issue of Trademark aside, I see many more similarities between the UDRP and the issue of legitimate ownership of a domain than between that issue and the TDRP. After all, both are disputes between parties about who should be the legitimate owner of a domain name. >>>>>> >>>>>> So while we may not want to open the UDRP to new complaints, we may want to look at creating a UDRP2 that is designed for exactly these issues. >>>>>> >>>>>> In both cases the registrar is asked to do certain things in preparation for the dispute and as its result, in both parts the question of the ultimate ownership of a domain name is decided by an independant panel. >>>>>> >>>>>> Volker >>>>>> Just for the record, I think adding a Registrants option to the UDRP would be just as mucked up as adding it here. In my humble opinion this warrants an entirely new policy or none at all. We don?t need to reinvent the Rules?.UDRPs Rules are great. Just create the Policy itself, which is entirely TM focused and would be a beast to open up to non-TM holders. J >>>>>> >>>>>> Kristine >>>>>> >>>>>> From: owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org [mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:09 AM >>>>>> To: James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor >>>>>> Cc: gnso-irtpd at icann.org >>>>>> Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi James, >>>>>> >>>>>> excellent points there. I think the case with your example is that this is not actually a case where a registrar is a party to the dispute. Maybe it is a star witness required to provide the information only it can provide, but not a party. Those roles are better left to prior and current registrant. >>>>>> >>>>>> This however begs the question if ICANN should implement another process for registrants to solve their disputes, or if this may not be better relegated to a future re-design of the UDRP? We could for example make a recommendation that the UDRP be expanded to cover also domain ownership issues in any future revision of that policy. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> >>>>>> Volker >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Good thoughts everyone. I think perhaps we should try to capture the various scenarios in the ?Reasons for Denial? area, where a registrar can legitimately deny a registrant?s request to initiate a TDRP. >>>>>> >>>>>> For example: if the Registrant believes that the identity of the registrant is in question, or that they cannot substantiate that they were ever the legitimate registrant (or Transfer Contact) for the name pre-transfer. If its a scenario in which the registrar has violated the IRTP, (or even the shiny new TDRP we?re developing), then that is a matter for Compliance and the registrar's accreditation could be at-risk. But we should avoid any process where a registrar is compelled to initiate a TDRP that they believe is without merit, -and- be forced to pay for the proceedings. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks? >>>>>> >>>>>> J. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> From: Mike O'Connor >>>>>> Date: Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 10:09 >>>>>> To: Volker Greimann >>>>>> Cc: "gnso-irtpd at icann.org" >>>>>> Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP >>>>>> >>>>>> hi Volker, >>>>>> >>>>>> i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to transfer out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due process in a dispute between registrars. this was recognized as an oversight in the policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched. >>>>>> >>>>>> i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably in the best position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to leave that discussion up to them. i like James' "put pressure on Registrars to comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live with anything that fixes that problem. what i'm not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in their current situation where these decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Mike, >>>>>> >>>>>> you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first place. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle the process). >>>>>> >>>>>> Volker >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not the intent. the intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar. the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted parties. >>>>>> >>>>>> If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the current process. >>>>>> >>>>>> What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes sense. >>>>>> >>>>>> I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc... >>>>>> >>>>>> Volker >>>>>> >>>>>> Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue >>>>>> >>>>>> ? In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters between themselves >>>>>> >>>>>> In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance >>>>>> >>>>>> Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings >>>>>> >>>>>> If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal >>>>>> >>>>>> If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >>>>>> >>>>>> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >>>>>> >>>>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>>>> - Rechtsabteilung - >>>>>> >>>>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>>>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>>>> >>>>>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >>>>>> >>>>>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >>>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems >>>>>> >>>>>> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >>>>>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>>>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >>>>>> >>>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>>>> >>>>>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >>>>>> >>>>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>>>> - legal department - >>>>>> >>>>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>>>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>>>> >>>>>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >>>>>> >>>>>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >>>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems >>>>>> >>>>>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >>>>>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>>>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >>>>>> >>>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>>>> >>>>>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >>>>>> >>>>>> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >>>>>> >>>>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>>>> - Rechtsabteilung - >>>>>> >>>>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>>>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>>>> >>>>>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >>>>>> >>>>>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >>>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems >>>>>> >>>>>> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >>>>>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>>>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >>>>>> >>>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>>>> >>>>>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >>>>>> >>>>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>>>> - legal department - >>>>>> >>>>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>>>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>>>> >>>>>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >>>>>> >>>>>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >>>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems >>>>>> >>>>>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >>>>>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>>>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >>>>>> >>>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>>>> >>>>>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >>>>>> >>>>>> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >>>>>> >>>>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>>>> - Rechtsabteilung - >>>>>> >>>>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>>>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>>>> >>>>>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net >>>>>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >>>>>> >>>>>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >>>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >>>>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems >>>>>> >>>>>> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >>>>>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>>>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >>>>>> >>>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>>>> >>>>>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >>>>>> >>>>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>>>> - legal department - >>>>>> >>>>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>>>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>>>> >>>>>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net >>>>>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >>>>>> >>>>>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >>>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >>>>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems >>>>>> >>>>>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >>>>>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>>>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >>>>>> >>>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>>>> >>>>>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >>>>>> >>>>>> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >>>>>> >>>>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>>>> - Rechtsabteilung - >>>>>> >>>>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>>>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>>>> >>>>>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net >>>>>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >>>>>> >>>>>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >>>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >>>>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems >>>>>> >>>>>> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >>>>>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>>>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >>>>>> >>>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>>>> >>>>>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >>>>>> >>>>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>>>> - legal department - >>>>>> >>>>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>>>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>>>> >>>>>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net >>>>>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >>>>>> >>>>>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >>>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >>>>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems >>>>>> >>>>>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >>>>>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>>>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >>>>>> >>>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>>>> >>>>>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >>>> >>>> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >>>> >>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>> - Rechtsabteilung - >>>> >>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>> >>>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net >>>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >>>> >>>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems >>>> >>>> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >>>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >>>> >>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>> >>>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>> - legal department - >>>> >>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>> >>>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net >>>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >>>> >>>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems >>>> >>>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >>>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >>>> >>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>> >>>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >>> >>> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >>> >>> Volker A. Greimann >>> - Rechtsabteilung - >>> >>> Key-Systems GmbH >>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >>> >>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net >>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >>> >>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >>> www.twitter.com/key_systems >>> >>> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >>> >>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>> www.keydrive.lu >>> >>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >>> >>> -------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Volker A. Greimann >>> - legal department - >>> >>> Key-Systems GmbH >>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >>> >>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net >>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >>> >>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >>> www.twitter.com/key_systems >>> >>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >>> >>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>> www.keydrive.lu >>> >>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >>> >>> >>> > > > -- > Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. > > Mit freundlichen Gr??en, > > Volker A. Greimann > - Rechtsabteilung - > > Key-Systems GmbH > Im Oberen Werk 1 > 66386 St. Ingbert > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 > Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net > > Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net > www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com > > Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: > www.facebook.com/KeySystems > www.twitter.com/key_systems > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin > Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken > Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP > www.keydrive.lu > > Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. > > -------------------------------------------- > > Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. > > Best regards, > > Volker A. Greimann > - legal department - > > Key-Systems GmbH > Im Oberen Werk 1 > 66386 St. Ingbert > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 > Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net > > Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net > www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com > > Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: > www.facebook.com/KeySystems > www.twitter.com/key_systems > > CEO: Alexander Siffrin > Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken > V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP > www.keydrive.lu > > This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. > > > PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vgreimann at key-systems.net Thu Dec 5 10:45:06 2013 From: vgreimann at key-systems.net (Volker Greimann) Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2013 11:45:06 +0100 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP In-Reply-To: <6C977942-9725-461C-821C-CA1FBEAC7728@haven2.com> References: <529E1016.5070403@key-systems.net> <529E1790.5080502@key-systems.net> <249BCFDF-7322-4596-A4F2-9B2C93CE1FCC@internode.on.net> <529EF6A5.8030606@key-systems.net> <529F289E.5010104@key-systems.net> <529F361F.3020701@key-systems.net> <6C977942-9725-461C-821C-CA1FBEAC7728@haven2.com> Message-ID: <52A05932.5010909@key-systems.net> Hi Mikey, if the registrant believes either the gaining or losing registrar have violated transfer poliy, compliance is the way to go. If the registrar is found to have been in breach of the RAA, he will be required to mend the breach, one option of which may be initiating the TDRP. Best, Volker > whew? > > good, but bewildering, discussion. > > so Volker, what do we do about the case where the registrar and the > registrant disagree about the merits? where does the registrant go to > get that disagreement resolved? > > m > > On Dec 4, 2013, at 8:03 AM, Volker Greimann > wrote: > >> Am 04.12.2013 14:38, schrieb Kevin Erdman: >>> Hi Volker, >>> >>> Thanks for your clarification, and I understand your position and I >>> disagree with it, for two reasons. >>> >>> First reason is the initial impetus to go down this line was domain >>> hijacking, registrar #1 gets a fraudulent authorization that ends up >>> with a new party in control of a domain at a new registrar. In this >>> case, both real parties and both registrars need to be involved >>> because all have potential liability. >> The current registrar is involved in the UDRP as well, and required >> to provide certain information, assist with the transfer and lock and >> unlock the domain name. >> Further, the fact of whether a transfer authorization in case of a >> hijacking is fraudulent or not does not even matter IIRC as the >> transfer process usually is not violated in such cases, but the TDRP >> exclusively deals with policy violations. >>> >>> Second reason is that UDRP2 for domain ownership disputes might be a >>> good idea in general, but that idea is beyond the scope of our >>> Working Group's charter. We might include this idea as a potential >>> new area to develop, but just not here. >> If it is outside our scope, we can still recommend this be looked at >> in a future UDRP reform or new PDP if we agree that such a process >> would be the better way to deal with the issue. >> >> I disagree with the notion that we should force a registrar to charge >> into a dispute, at its own risk, for cases it sees as having no >> merit. There is a reason why the current TDRP is an elective method >> and I see no reason to change that. >> >> From the TDRP: >> (http://www.icann.org/en/help/dndr/tdrp) >> "In cases where this is unsuccessful and where a /registrar elects to >> file /a dispute, the following procedures apply. " >> and >> "/Transfer dispute resolution fees can be substantial/" >> >> >> >>> _________________________________ >>> Kevin R Erdman >>> >>> cell 317.289.3934 >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Dec 4, 2013, at 8:09, "Volker Greimann" >>> > wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Kevin, >>>> >>>> I think you misunderstood me. By UDRP2 I do not mean the same >>>> process, but a new process modeled on the UDRP precedures. Of >>>> course the questions that would have to be answered by the panels >>>> would be different from those asked in the current UDRP. >>>> >>>> Basically: >>>> 1) Was the complainant the previous owner? >>>> 2) Can the previous owner show that the transfer/change of >>>> ownership occurred illegally? >>>> 3) Can the respondent demonstrate evidence to the contrary? >>>> >>>> It remains a dispute between two parties: The previous owner and >>>> the current owner. >>>> No need to drag anyone else in there as a party. >>>> >>>> Volker >>>>> Hi Volker, >>>>> I agree that ownership issues are a key to this discussion. >>>>> However, when the ownership issue only relates to a domain at a >>>>> single registrar, traditional contract principles apply and make >>>>> those situations a standard contractual dispute handled with >>>>> regard to ICANN contracts and registrant-registrar contracts. The >>>>> problem falls outside of this context when the domain is also >>>>> transferred, so that multiple parties may be involved in resolving >>>>> the ownership issue and that is the problem we are discussing?I >>>>> believe that handling unauthorized ownership changes within a >>>>> registrar is not part of our Charter. >>>>> The UDRP explicitly does not deal with who should own a domain, >>>>> rather one possible resolution of the UDRP procedure is the >>>>> transfer of a domain name. The issues that a dispute resolution >>>>> panel has to deal with is the the activities of the domain owner, >>>>> the trademark rights of the complaint filer, and the question of >>>>> whether the registration and/or use of the domain is in bad faith >>>>> in light of the trademark rights. Ownership transfer is a >>>>> possible form of relief, but not an issue that the dispute >>>>> resolution panel evaluates. From the perspective of a registry, >>>>> the UDRP involves some input and the output is who gets to own the >>>>> domain. However, from the perspective of registrars and >>>>> registrants, the UDRP is all about the nature and extent of >>>>> trademark rights and the domain name in question. >>>>> IMO, the only similarity between resolving ownership issues and >>>>> the UDRP is the last step, that a form of relief may be a forced >>>>> transfer of a domain. Otherwise, the UDRP does not deal with the >>>>> ownership issues of which we are concerned. >>>>> ____________________________ >>>>> Kevin R Erdman >>>>> Reichel IP LLP >>>>> 212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280 >>>>> Indianapolis, IN 46202 >>>>> voice 317.677.0689 >>>>> fax 317.454.1349 >>>>> email kevin at reichelip.com >>>>> skype kevimundo >>>>> web www.reichelip.com >>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> *From:* Volker Greimann >>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 04, 2013 4:32 AM >>>>> *To:* Holly Raiche ; Kevin >>>>> Erdman >>>>> *Cc:* Dorrain, Kristine ; James M. >>>>> Bladel ; Mike O'Connor >>>>> ; gnso-irtpd at icann.org >>>>> >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that >>>>> sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- >>>>> registrant role in TDRP >>>>> Hi Kevin and Holly, >>>>> >>>>> one aspect we noted previously was that the issues at hand look >>>>> more like ownership issues than transfer issues, as the exact same >>>>> problems for the registrant may exist when no transfer has taken >>>>> place. Therefore a process that focusses on unauthorized ownership >>>>> changes rather than transfers may be better to deal with the the >>>>> actual problem. >>>>> >>>>> And the issue of who should own a domain is more commonly dealt >>>>> with under the UDRP (albeit under different conditions) than the >>>>> TDRP, which does not deal with such issues at all, or only as a >>>>> result from process violation. >>>>> >>>>> Volker >>>>> >>>>>> Well said Kevin >>>>>> Holly >>>>>> On 04/12/2013, at 4:57 AM, Kevin Erdman wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I disagree. The UDRP is designed to correct misbehavior of a >>>>>>> valid domain name owner relating to that owner?s use of a domain >>>>>>> name, namely that the use of a domain infringes the rights of a >>>>>>> trademark owner. The basis of the complaint is not that the >>>>>>> domain name owner did not validly register the domain, but >>>>>>> rather that the use of the domain is a trademark violation. The >>>>>>> facts and circumstances of the ownership of trademark rights and >>>>>>> the trademark infringement are outside of the knowledge of the >>>>>>> registrars and registries. The UDRP procedures are designed to >>>>>>> get the facts in front of the dispute resolution panel to >>>>>>> provide the trademark owner with a remedy to trademark >>>>>>> infringement that may be difficult or impossible to obtain >>>>>>> judicially. >>>>>>> The TDRP is about correcting a bad domain transfer, and the >>>>>>> circumstances of the transfer are mostly known to the registrars >>>>>>> and registries, but there might be some oversight that a >>>>>>> registrar or a registrant would want corrected. I think we >>>>>>> should focus on where the TDRP leaves a registrant or a >>>>>>> registrar without a remedy, and only provide more procedures for >>>>>>> scenarios where a remedy is not currently available. >>>>>>> ____________________________ >>>>>>> Kevin R Erdman >>>>>>> Reichel IP LLP >>>>>>> 212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280 >>>>>>> Indianapolis, IN 46202 >>>>>>> voice 317.677.0689 >>>>>>> fax 317.454.1349 >>>>>>> emailkevin at reichelip.com >>>>>>> skype kevimundo >>>>>>> webwww.reichelip.com >>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> *From:*Dorrain, Kristine >>>>>>> *Sent:*Tuesday, December 03, 2013 12:43 PM >>>>>>> *To:*'Volker Greimann' ;James >>>>>>> M. Bladel ;Mike O'Connor >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Cc:*gnso-irtpd at icann.org >>>>>>> *Subject:*RE: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that >>>>>>> sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- >>>>>>> registrant role in TDRP >>>>>>> I agree. >>>>>>> *From:*Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net] >>>>>>> *Sent:*Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:41 AM >>>>>>> *To:*Dorrain, Kristine; James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor >>>>>>> *Cc:*gnso-irtpd at icann.org >>>>>>> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that >>>>>>> sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- >>>>>>> registrant role in TDRP >>>>>>> The issue of Trademark aside, I see many more similarities >>>>>>> between the UDRP and the issue of legitimate ownership of a >>>>>>> domain than between that issue and the TDRP. After all, both are >>>>>>> disputes between parties about who should be the legitimate >>>>>>> owner of a domain name. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So while we may not want to open the UDRP to new complaints, we >>>>>>> may want to look at creating a UDRP2 that is designed for >>>>>>> exactly these issues. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In both cases the registrar is asked to do certain things in >>>>>>> preparation for the dispute and as its result, in both parts the >>>>>>> question of the ultimate ownership of a domain name is decided >>>>>>> by an independant panel. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Volker >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Just for the record, I think adding a Registrants option to >>>>>>> the UDRP would be just as mucked up as adding it here. In >>>>>>> my humble opinion this warrants an entirely new policy or >>>>>>> none at all. We don?t need to reinvent the Rules?.UDRPs >>>>>>> Rules are great. Just create the Policy itself, which is >>>>>>> entirely TM focused and would be a beast to open up to >>>>>>> non-TM holders. J >>>>>>> Kristine >>>>>>> *From:*owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org >>>>>>> [mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org]*On >>>>>>> Behalf Of*Volker Greimann >>>>>>> *Sent:*Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:09 AM >>>>>>> *To:*James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor >>>>>>> *Cc:*gnso-irtpd at icann.org >>>>>>> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that >>>>>>> sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- >>>>>>> registrant role in TDRP >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi James, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> excellent points there. I think the case with your example >>>>>>> is that this is not actually a case where a registrar is a >>>>>>> party to the dispute. Maybe it is a star witness required to >>>>>>> provide the information only it can provide, but not a >>>>>>> party. Those roles are better left to prior and current >>>>>>> registrant. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This however begs the question if ICANN should implement >>>>>>> another process for registrants to solve their disputes, or >>>>>>> if this may not be better relegated to a future re-design of >>>>>>> the UDRP? We could for example make a recommendation that >>>>>>> the UDRP be expanded to cover also domain ownership issues >>>>>>> in any future revision of that policy. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Volker >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Good thoughts everyone. I think perhaps we should try >>>>>>> to capture the various scenarios in the ?Reasons for >>>>>>> Denial? area, where a registrar can legitimately deny a >>>>>>> registrant?s request to initiate a TDRP. >>>>>>> For example: if the Registrant believes that the >>>>>>> identity of the registrant is in question, or that they >>>>>>> cannot substantiate that they were ever the legitimate >>>>>>> registrant (or Transfer Contact) for the name >>>>>>> pre-transfer. If its a scenario in which the registrar >>>>>>> has violated the IRTP, (or even the shiny new TDRP we?re >>>>>>> developing), then that is a matter for Compliance and >>>>>>> the registrar's accreditation could be at-risk. But we >>>>>>> should avoid any process where a registrar is compelled >>>>>>> to initiate a TDRP that they believe is without merit, >>>>>>> -and- be forced to pay for the proceedings. >>>>>>> Thanks? >>>>>>> J. >>>>>>> *From:*Mike O'Connor >>>>>> > >>>>>>> *Date:*Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 10:09 >>>>>>> *To:*Volker Greimann >>>>>> > >>>>>>> *Cc:*"gnso-irtpd at icann.org >>>>>>> " >>>>>> > >>>>>>> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of >>>>>>> that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just >>>>>>> now -- registrant role in TDRP >>>>>>> hi Volker, >>>>>>> i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is >>>>>>> either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to >>>>>>> allow the registrant to transfer out) or is >>>>>>> presumptively denying the registrant due process in a >>>>>>> dispute between registrars. this was recognized as an >>>>>>> oversight in the policy back in the misty past when this >>>>>>> series of IRTP PDPs was launched. >>>>>>> i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably >>>>>>> in the best position to figure out the best way to get >>>>>>> this done and i'm happy to leave that discussion up to >>>>>>> them. i like James' "put pressure on Registrars to >>>>>>> comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler >>>>>>> one but i can live with anything that fixes that >>>>>>> problem. what i'm not keen on the idea of leaving >>>>>>> registrants in their current situation where these >>>>>>> decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no >>>>>>> recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts. >>>>>>> On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann >>>>>>> >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Mike, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> you are assuming that registrants should be >>>>>>> beneficiaries of the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a >>>>>>> registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the >>>>>>> registrants access as they do not have such an access in >>>>>>> the first place. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you want to give the registrant a way to force a >>>>>>> registrar to initiate a proceeding against another >>>>>>> registrar, that is another story, but that way needs to >>>>>>> include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs >>>>>>> and a right of a registrar to charge for this service >>>>>>> (to cover the work needed to handle the process). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Volker >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> i think the key distinction i want to draw is with >>>>>>> your sentence "give registrants access to" the >>>>>>> TDRP. that's not the intent. the intent is to >>>>>>> ensure that registrants are not blocked from that >>>>>>> process by their registrar. the hope here is to >>>>>>> provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where >>>>>>> registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP >>>>>>> is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that >>>>>>> appeal pretty high. >>>>>>> On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann >>>>>>> >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I still feel that giving registrants access to the >>>>>>> TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an >>>>>>> inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal >>>>>>> with process violations and will turn it into a >>>>>>> transfer dispute process between registrants, >>>>>>> dragging registrars and registries into a civil >>>>>>> conflict between two parties. This will result in >>>>>>> increased costs and work for contracted parties. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If a registrar is violating transfer processes, >>>>>>> there will be sufficient incentive for affected >>>>>>> registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke >>>>>>> the current process. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What we need to look at instead is if creating an >>>>>>> alternate process between registrant and former >>>>>>> registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name >>>>>>> makes sense. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to >>>>>>> hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a >>>>>>> registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should >>>>>>> be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the >>>>>>> UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to >>>>>>> me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the >>>>>>> complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is >>>>>>> unreachable/etc... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Volker >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Provide the ability for the registrant to >>>>>>> trigger the TDRP process in cases when they >>>>>>> disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ?In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they >>>>>>> can't resolve matters between themselves >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In the case of disagreement between registrar >>>>>>> and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, >>>>>>> provide a path for the registrant to take the >>>>>>> issue to Compliance >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Build minimum documentation requirements for >>>>>>> registrants into the policy as a filter to >>>>>>> prevent frivolous filings >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP >>>>>>> proceeds as normal, with fees paid by >>>>>>> registrars, as normal >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's >>>>>>> it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants >>>>>>> to proceed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, >>>>>>> WEB:www.haven2.com , >>>>>>> HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, >>>>>>> LinkedIn, etc.) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - Rechtsabteilung - >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>>>>> >>>>>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - legal department - >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>>>>> >>>>>>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>>>>> >>>>>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, >>>>>>> WEB:www.haven2.com , HANDLE: >>>>>>> OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - Rechtsabteilung - >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>>>>> >>>>>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - legal department - >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>>>>> >>>>>>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>>>>> >>>>>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, >>>>>>> WEB:www.haven2.com , HANDLE: >>>>>>> OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - Rechtsabteilung - >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >>>>>>> >>>>>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>>>>> >>>>>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - legal department - >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >>>>>>> >>>>>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>>>>> >>>>>>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>>>>> >>>>>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>>>>> - Rechtsabteilung - >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>>>>> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net >>>>>>> www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >>>>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >>>>>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >>>>>>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>>>>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>>>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>>>>> - legal department - >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>>>>> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net >>>>>>> www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >>>>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >>>>>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems >>>>>>> >>>>>>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >>>>>>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>>>>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>>>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >>>>> >>>>> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >>>>> >>>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>>> - Rechtsabteilung - >>>>> >>>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>>> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>>> >>>>> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net >>>>> www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >>>>> >>>>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >>>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems >>>>> >>>>> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >>>>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >>>>> >>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>>> >>>>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >>>>> >>>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >>>>> >>>>> Best regards, >>>>> >>>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>>> - legal department - >>>>> >>>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>>> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>>> >>>>> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net >>>>> www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >>>>> >>>>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >>>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems >>>>> >>>>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >>>>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >>>>> >>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>>> >>>>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >>>> >>>> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >>>> >>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>> - Rechtsabteilung - >>>> >>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>> >>>> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net >>>> www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >>>> >>>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems >>>> >>>> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >>>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >>>> >>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>> >>>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>> - legal department - >>>> >>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>> >>>> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net >>>> www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >>>> >>>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems >>>> >>>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >>>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >>>> >>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>> >>>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> >> -- >> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >> >> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >> >> Volker A. Greimann >> - Rechtsabteilung - >> >> Key-Systems GmbH >> Im Oberen Werk 1 >> 66386 St. Ingbert >> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >> >> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net >> www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >> >> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >> www.twitter.com/key_systems >> >> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >> >> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >> www.keydrive.lu >> >> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >> >> -------------------------------------------- >> >> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Volker A. Greimann >> - legal department - >> >> Key-Systems GmbH >> Im Oberen Werk 1 >> 66386 St. Ingbert >> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net >> >> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net >> www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com >> >> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >> www.twitter.com/key_systems >> >> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >> >> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >> www.keydrive.lu >> >> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >> >> >> > > > PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com > , HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, > LinkedIn, etc.) > -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. Mit freundlichen Gr??en, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rob.golding at astutium.com Thu Dec 5 12:18:42 2013 From: rob.golding at astutium.com (Rob Golding) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 12:18:42 -0000 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP In-Reply-To: <6C977942-9725-461C-821C-CA1FBEAC7728@haven2.com> References: <529E1016.5070403@key-systems.net> <529E1790.5080502@key-systems.net> <249BCFDF-7322-4596-A4F2-9B2C93CE1FCC@internode.on.net> <529EF6A5.8030606@key-systems.net> <529F289E.5010104@key-systems.net> <529F361F.3020701@key-systems.net> <6C977942-9725-461C-821C-CA1FBEAC7728@haven2.com> Message-ID: <03e301cef1b4$23639860$6a2ac920$@golding@astutium.com> > what do we do about the case where the registrar and the > registrant disagree about the merits? where does the registrant go to > get that disagreement resolved? Same place the registrant goes for a dozen reasons they shouldn't already - ICANN compliance. Rob From mike at haven2.com Thu Dec 5 12:19:59 2013 From: mike at haven2.com (Mike O'Connor) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 06:19:59 -0600 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP In-Reply-To: <52A05932.5010909@key-systems.net> References: <529E1016.5070403@key-systems.net> <529E1790.5080502@key-systems.net> <249BCFDF-7322-4596-A4F2-9B2C93CE1FCC@internode.on.net> <529EF6A5.8030606@key-systems.net> <529F289E.5010104@key-systems.net> <529F361F.3020701@key-systems.net> <6C977942-9725-461C-821C-CA1FBEAC7728@haven2.com> <52A05932.5010909@key-systems.net> Message-ID: <41EF7B4B-0BA7-4009-8BE0-24CF24CE6425@haven2.com> so can we say that in cases where the registrant and their registrar disagree about the merits of the case, they should go to Compliance for a determination? m On Dec 5, 2013, at 4:45 AM, Volker Greimann wrote: > Hi Mikey, > > if the registrant believes either the gaining or losing registrar have violated transfer poliy, compliance is the way to go. If the registrar is found to have been in breach of the RAA, he will be required to mend the breach, one option of which may be initiating the TDRP. > > Best, > > Volker > >> whew? >> >> good, but bewildering, discussion. >> >> so Volker, what do we do about the case where the registrar and the registrant disagree about the merits? where does the registrant go to get that disagreement resolved? >> >> m >> >> On Dec 4, 2013, at 8:03 AM, Volker Greimann wrote: >> >>> Am 04.12.2013 14:38, schrieb Kevin Erdman: >>>> Hi Volker, >>>> >>>> Thanks for your clarification, and I understand your position and I disagree with it, for two reasons. >>>> >>>> First reason is the initial impetus to go down this line was domain hijacking, registrar #1 gets a fraudulent authorization that ends up with a new party in control of a domain at a new registrar. In this case, both real parties and both registrars need to be involved because all have potential liability. >>> The current registrar is involved in the UDRP as well, and required to provide certain information, assist with the transfer and lock and unlock the domain name. >>> Further, the fact of whether a transfer authorization in case of a hijacking is fraudulent or not does not even matter IIRC as the transfer process usually is not violated in such cases, but the TDRP exclusively deals with policy violations. >>>> >>>> Second reason is that UDRP2 for domain ownership disputes might be a good idea in general, but that idea is beyond the scope of our Working Group's charter. We might include this idea as a potential new area to develop, but just not here. >>> If it is outside our scope, we can still recommend this be looked at in a future UDRP reform or new PDP if we agree that such a process would be the better way to deal with the issue. >>> >>> I disagree with the notion that we should force a registrar to charge into a dispute, at its own risk, for cases it sees as having no merit. There is a reason why the current TDRP is an elective method and I see no reason to change that. >>> >>> From the TDRP: >>> (http://www.icann.org/en/help/dndr/tdrp) >>> "In cases where this is unsuccessful and where a registrar elects to file a dispute, the following procedures apply. " >>> and >>> "Transfer dispute resolution fees can be substantial" >>> >>> >>> >>>> _________________________________ >>>> Kevin R Erdman >>>> >>>> cell 317.289.3934 >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Dec 4, 2013, at 8:09, "Volker Greimann" wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Kevin, >>>>> >>>>> I think you misunderstood me. By UDRP2 I do not mean the same process, but a new process modeled on the UDRP precedures. Of course the questions that would have to be answered by the panels would be different from those asked in the current UDRP. >>>>> >>>>> Basically: >>>>> 1) Was the complainant the previous owner? >>>>> 2) Can the previous owner show that the transfer/change of ownership occurred illegally? >>>>> 3) Can the respondent demonstrate evidence to the contrary? >>>>> >>>>> It remains a dispute between two parties: The previous owner and the current owner. >>>>> No need to drag anyone else in there as a party. >>>>> >>>>> Volker >>>>>> Hi Volker, >>>>>> >>>>>> I agree that ownership issues are a key to this discussion. However, when the ownership issue only relates to a domain at a single registrar, traditional contract principles apply and make those situations a standard contractual dispute handled with regard to ICANN contracts and registrant-registrar contracts. The problem falls outside of this context when the domain is also transferred, so that multiple parties may be involved in resolving the ownership issue and that is the problem we are discussing?I believe that handling unauthorized ownership changes within a registrar is not part of our Charter. >>>>>> >>>>>> The UDRP explicitly does not deal with who should own a domain, rather one possible resolution of the UDRP procedure is the transfer of a domain name. The issues that a dispute resolution panel has to deal with is the the activities of the domain owner, the trademark rights of the complaint filer, and the question of whether the registration and/or use of the domain is in bad faith in light of the trademark rights. Ownership transfer is a possible form of relief, but not an issue that the dispute resolution panel evaluates. From the perspective of a registry, the UDRP involves some input and the output is who gets to own the domain. However, from the perspective of registrars and registrants, the UDRP is all about the nature and extent of trademark rights and the domain name in question. >>>>>> >>>>>> IMO, the only similarity between resolving ownership issues and the UDRP is the last step, that a form of relief may be a forced transfer of a domain. Otherwise, the UDRP does not deal with the ownership issues of which we are concerned. >>>>>> ____________________________ >>>>>> Kevin R Erdman >>>>>> Reichel IP LLP >>>>>> 212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280 >>>>>> Indianapolis, IN 46202 >>>>>> voice 317.677.0689 >>>>>> fax 317.454.1349 >>>>>> email kevin at reichelip.com >>>>>> skype kevimundo >>>>>> web www.reichelip.com >>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> From: Volker Greimann >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 4:32 AM >>>>>> To: Holly Raiche ; Kevin Erdman >>>>>> Cc: Dorrain, Kristine ; James M. Bladel ; Mike O'Connor ; gnso-irtpd at icann.org >>>>>> Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Kevin and Holly, >>>>>> >>>>>> one aspect we noted previously was that the issues at hand look more like ownership issues than transfer issues, as the exact same problems for the registrant may exist when no transfer has taken place. Therefore a process that focusses on unauthorized ownership changes rather than transfers may be better to deal with the the actual problem. >>>>>> >>>>>> And the issue of who should own a domain is more commonly dealt with under the UDRP (albeit under different conditions) than the TDRP, which does not deal with such issues at all, or only as a result from process violation. >>>>>> >>>>>> Volker >>>>>> >>>>>>> Well said Kevin >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Holly >>>>>>> On 04/12/2013, at 4:57 AM, Kevin Erdman wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I disagree. The UDRP is designed to correct misbehavior of a valid domain name owner relating to that owner?s use of a domain name, namely that the use of a domain infringes the rights of a trademark owner. The basis of the complaint is not that the domain name owner did not validly register the domain, but rather that the use of the domain is a trademark violation. The facts and circumstances of the ownership of trademark rights and the trademark infringement are outside of the knowledge of the registrars and registries. The UDRP procedures are designed to get the facts in front of the dispute resolution panel to provide the trademark owner with a remedy to trademark infringement that may be difficult or impossible to obtain judicially. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The TDRP is about correcting a bad domain transfer, and the circumstances of the transfer are mostly known to the registrars and registries, but there might be some oversight that a registrar or a registrant would want corrected. I think we should focus on where the TDRP leaves a registrant or a registrar without a remedy, and only provide more procedures for scenarios where a remedy is not currently available. >>>>>>>> ____________________________ >>>>>>>> Kevin R Erdman >>>>>>>> Reichel IP LLP >>>>>>>> 212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280 >>>>>>>> Indianapolis, IN 46202 >>>>>>>> voice 317.677.0689 >>>>>>>> fax 317.454.1349 >>>>>>>> email kevin at reichelip.com >>>>>>>> skype kevimundo >>>>>>>> web www.reichelip.com >>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> From: Dorrain, Kristine >>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 12:43 PM >>>>>>>> To: 'Volker Greimann' ; James M. Bladel ; Mike O'Connor >>>>>>>> Cc: gnso-irtpd at icann.org >>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I agree. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net] >>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:41 AM >>>>>>>> To: Dorrain, Kristine; James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor >>>>>>>> Cc: gnso-irtpd at icann.org >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The issue of Trademark aside, I see many more similarities between the UDRP and the issue of legitimate ownership of a domain than between that issue and the TDRP. After all, both are disputes between parties about who should be the legitimate owner of a domain name. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So while we may not want to open the UDRP to new complaints, we may want to look at creating a UDRP2 that is designed for exactly these issues. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In both cases the registrar is asked to do certain things in preparation for the dispute and as its result, in both parts the question of the ultimate ownership of a domain name is decided by an independant panel. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Volker >>>>>>>> Just for the record, I think adding a Registrants option to the UDRP would be just as mucked up as adding it here. In my humble opinion this warrants an entirely new policy or none at all. We don?t need to reinvent the Rules?.UDRPs Rules are great. Just create the Policy itself, which is entirely TM focused and would be a beast to open up to non-TM holders. J >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Kristine >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> From: owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org [mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann >>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:09 AM >>>>>>>> To: James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor >>>>>>>> Cc: gnso-irtpd at icann.org >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi James, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> excellent points there. I think the case with your example is that this is not actually a case where a registrar is a party to the dispute. Maybe it is a star witness required to provide the information only it can provide, but not a party. Those roles are better left to prior and current registrant. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This however begs the question if ICANN should implement another process for registrants to solve their disputes, or if this may not be better relegated to a future re-design of the UDRP? We could for example make a recommendation that the UDRP be expanded to cover also domain ownership issues in any future revision of that policy. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Volker >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Good thoughts everyone. I think perhaps we should try to capture the various scenarios in the ?Reasons for Denial? area, where a registrar can legitimately deny a registrant?s request to initiate a TDRP. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> For example: if the Registrant believes that the identity of the registrant is in question, or that they cannot substantiate that they were ever the legitimate registrant (or Transfer Contact) for the name pre-transfer. If its a scenario in which the registrar has violated the IRTP, (or even the shiny new TDRP we?re developing), then that is a matter for Compliance and the registrar's accreditation could be at-risk. But we should avoid any process where a registrar is compelled to initiate a TDRP that they believe is without merit, -and- be forced to pay for the proceedings. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> J. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> From: Mike O'Connor >>>>>>>> Date: Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 10:09 >>>>>>>> To: Volker Greimann >>>>>>>> Cc: "gnso-irtpd at icann.org" >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hi Volker, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to transfer out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due process in a dispute between registrars. this was recognized as an oversight in the policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably in the best position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to leave that discussion up to them. i like James' "put pressure on Registrars to comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live with anything that fixes that problem. what i'm not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in their current situation where these decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Mike, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first place. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle the process). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Volker >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not the intent. the intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar. the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted parties. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the current process. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes sense. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Volker >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ? In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters between themselves >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>>>>>> - Rechtsabteilung - >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>>>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>>>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>>>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>>>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>>>>>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >>>>>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >>>>>>>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>>>>>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>>>>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>>>>>> - legal department - >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>>>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>>>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>>>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>>>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>>>>>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >>>>>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >>>>>>>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>>>>>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>>>>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>>>>>> - Rechtsabteilung - >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>>>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>>>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>>>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>>>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>>>>>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >>>>>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >>>>>>>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>>>>>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>>>>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>>>>>> - legal department - >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>>>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>>>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>>>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>>>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>>>>>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >>>>>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >>>>>>>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>>>>>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>>>>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>>>>>> - Rechtsabteilung - >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>>>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>>>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>>>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>>>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>>>>>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net >>>>>>>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >>>>>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >>>>>>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >>>>>>>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>>>>>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>>>>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>>>>>> - legal department - >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>>>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>>>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>>>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>>>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>>>>>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net >>>>>>>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >>>>>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >>>>>>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >>>>>>>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>>>>>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>>>>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>>>>>> - Rechtsabteilung - >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>>>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>>>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>>>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>>>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>>>>>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net >>>>>>>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >>>>>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >>>>>>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >>>>>>>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>>>>>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>>>>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>>>>>> - legal department - >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>>>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>>>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>>>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>>>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>>>>>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net >>>>>>>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >>>>>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >>>>>>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >>>>>>>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>>>>>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>>>>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >>>>>> >>>>>> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >>>>>> >>>>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>>>> - Rechtsabteilung - >>>>>> >>>>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>>>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>>>> >>>>>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net >>>>>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >>>>>> >>>>>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >>>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >>>>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems >>>>>> >>>>>> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >>>>>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>>>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >>>>>> >>>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>>>> >>>>>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >>>>>> >>>>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>>>> - legal department - >>>>>> >>>>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>>>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>>>> >>>>>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net >>>>>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >>>>>> >>>>>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >>>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >>>>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems >>>>>> >>>>>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >>>>>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>>>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >>>>>> >>>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>>>> >>>>>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >>>>> >>>>> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >>>>> >>>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>>> - Rechtsabteilung - >>>>> >>>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>>> >>>>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net >>>>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >>>>> >>>>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >>>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems >>>>> >>>>> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >>>>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >>>>> >>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>>> >>>>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >>>>> >>>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >>>>> >>>>> Best regards, >>>>> >>>>> Volker A. Greimann >>>>> - legal department - >>>>> >>>>> Key-Systems GmbH >>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>>>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >>>>> >>>>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net >>>>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >>>>> >>>>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >>>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >>>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems >>>>> >>>>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >>>>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>>>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >>>>> >>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>>>> www.keydrive.lu >>>>> >>>>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. >>> >>> Mit freundlichen Gr??en, >>> >>> Volker A. Greimann >>> - Rechtsabteilung - >>> >>> Key-Systems GmbH >>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >>> >>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net >>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >>> >>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >>> www.twitter.com/key_systems >>> >>> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin >>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >>> >>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>> www.keydrive.lu >>> >>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >>> >>> -------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Volker A. Greimann >>> - legal department - >>> >>> Key-Systems GmbH >>> Im Oberen Werk 1 >>> 66386 St. Ingbert >>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net >>> >>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net >>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >>> >>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >>> www.twitter.com/key_systems >>> >>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >>> >>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >>> www.keydrive.lu >>> >>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) >> > > > -- > Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. > > Mit freundlichen Gr??en, > > Volker A. Greimann > - Rechtsabteilung - > > Key-Systems GmbH > Im Oberen Werk 1 > 66386 St. Ingbert > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 > Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net > > Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net > www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com > > Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: > www.facebook.com/KeySystems > www.twitter.com/key_systems > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin > Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken > Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP > www.keydrive.lu > > Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. > > -------------------------------------------- > > Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. > > Best regards, > > Volker A. Greimann > - legal department - > > Key-Systems GmbH > Im Oberen Werk 1 > 66386 St. Ingbert > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 > Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net > > Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net > www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com > > Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: > www.facebook.com/KeySystems > www.twitter.com/key_systems > > CEO: Alexander Siffrin > Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken > V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP > www.keydrive.lu > > This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. > > > PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rob.golding at astutium.com Thu Dec 5 12:24:18 2013 From: rob.golding at astutium.com (Rob Golding) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 12:24:18 -0000 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP In-Reply-To: <41EF7B4B-0BA7-4009-8BE0-24CF24CE6425@haven2.com> References: <529E1016.5070403@key-systems.net> <529E1790.5080502@key-systems.net> <249BCFDF-7322-4596-A4F2-9B2C93CE1FCC@internode.on.net> <529EF6A5.8030606@key-systems.net> <529F289E.5010104@key-systems.net> <529F361F.3020701@key-systems.net> <6C977942-9725-461C-821C-CA1FBEAC7728@haven2.com> <52A05932.5010909@key-systems.net> <41EF7B4B-0BA7-4009-8BE0-24CF24CE6425@haven2.com> Message-ID: <03ed01cef1b4$ebb77840$c32668c0$@golding@astutium.com> > so can we say that in cases where the registrant and their registrar > disagree about the merits of the case, they should go to Compliance for > a determination? For compliance to get involved, yes. Rob From mike at haven2.com Thu Dec 5 12:35:59 2013 From: mike at haven2.com (Mike O'Connor) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 06:35:59 -0600 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP In-Reply-To: <03ed01cef1b4$ebb77840$c32668c0$@golding@astutium.com> References: <529E1016.5070403@key-systems.net> <529E1790.5080502@key-systems.net> <249BCFDF-7322-4596-A4F2-9B2C93CE1FCC@internode.on.net> <529EF6A5.8030606@key-systems.net> <529F289E.5010104@key-systems.net> <529F361F.3020701@key-systems.net> <6C977942-9725-461C-821C-CA1FBEAC7728@haven2.com> <52A05932.5010909@key-systems.net> <41EF7B4B-0BA7-4009-8BE0-24CF24CE6425@haven2.com> <03ed01cef1b4$ebb77840$c32668c0$@golding@astutium.com> Message-ID: hi Rob, can you expand on why you prefer the idea that Compliance get's involved over making a determination? i think we're on to something here, so i'm just looking for ideas on what the appropriate role would be for Compliance, not trying to mousetrap you. thanks, mikey On Dec 5, 2013, at 6:24 AM, "Rob Golding" wrote: > >> so can we say that in cases where the registrant and their registrar >> disagree about the merits of the case, they should go to Compliance for >> a determination? > > For compliance to get involved, yes. > > Rob > PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) From rob.golding at astutium.com Thu Dec 5 13:06:28 2013 From: rob.golding at astutium.com (Rob Golding) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 13:06:28 -0000 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP In-Reply-To: References: <529E1016.5070403@key-systems.net> <529E1790.5080502@key-systems.net> <249BCFDF-7322-4596-A4F2-9B2C93CE1FCC@internode.on.net> <529EF6A5.8030606@key-systems.net> <529F289E.5010104@key-systems.net> <529F361F.3020701@key-systems.net> <6C977942-9725-461C-821C-CA1FBEAC7728@haven2.com> <52A05932.5010909@key-systems.net> <41EF7B4B-0BA7-4009-8BE0-24CF24CE6425@haven2.com> <03ed01cef1b4$ebb77840$c32668c0$@golding@astutium.com> Message-ID: <041d01cef1ba$cf491f50$6ddb5df0$@golding@astutium.com> > can you expand on why you prefer the idea that Compliance get's involved > over making a determination? Depends on your definition of 'determination' - I more expect them to review things and prompt the registrar(s) as necessary (subject to previous posts about fees) if policy has not been followed. Afterall isn't compliance role/remit to ensure that all registrars follow policy/process? If a registrant thinks that is not what has been done, they already have the option(s) to talk to compliance (and we all know registrants regularly talk to them about complete nonsense/trivia anyway) . > just looking for ideas on what the appropriate role would be for > Compliance, not trying to mousetrap you. The appropriate role would be for them to do their job, just their job and only their job - and to apply/enforce those items of policy fairly and consistently across all registrars... Rob From h.raiche at internode.on.net Thu Dec 5 21:24:13 2013 From: h.raiche at internode.on.net (Holly Raiche) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 08:24:13 +1100 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP In-Reply-To: <041d01cef1ba$cf491f50$6ddb5df0$@golding@astutium.com> References: <529E1016.5070403@key-systems.net> <529E1790.5080502@key-systems.net> <249BCFDF-7322-4596-A4F2-9B2C93CE1FCC@internode.on.net> <529EF6A5.8030606@key-systems.net> <529F289E.5010104@key-systems.net> <529F361F.3020701@key-systems.net> <6C977942-9725-461C-821C-CA1FBEAC7728@haven2.com> <52A05932.5010909@key-systems.net> <41EF7B4B-0BA7-4009-8BE0-24CF24CE6425@haven2.com> <03ed01cef1b4$ebb77840$c32668c0$@golding@astutium.com> <041d01cef1ba$cf491f50$6ddb5df0$@golding@astutium.com> Message-ID: <6D0551B2-EDE5-48F6-AA9F-1D09648A9888@internode.on.net> Thanks Rob and Mikey the one piece of the puzzle Mikey added was to work through what documentation would be required for the registrant to establish improper transfer of the domain name. One of the issues that has been raised is the possibility of a 'flood' of potentially vexatious complaints. So we need to have a check list of some sort to say that, if you the registrant are going to compliance, they will ask the following. Hopefully, it will both weed out potentially vexatious complaints and assist registrants with a genuine complaint in addressing their problem. Holly On 06/12/2013, at 12:06 AM, Rob Golding wrote: > >> can you expand on why you prefer the idea that Compliance get's involved >> over making a determination? > > Depends on your definition of 'determination' - I more expect them to review > things and prompt the registrar(s) as necessary (subject to previous posts > about fees) if policy has not been followed. > > Afterall isn't compliance role/remit to ensure that all registrars follow > policy/process? > > If a registrant thinks that is not what has been done, they already have the > option(s) to talk to compliance (and we all know registrants regularly talk > to them about complete nonsense/trivia anyway) . > >> just looking for ideas on what the appropriate role would be for >> Compliance, not trying to mousetrap you. > > The appropriate role would be for them to do their job, just their job and > only their job - and to apply/enforce those items of policy fairly and > consistently across all registrars... > > Rob > From mike at haven2.com Thu Dec 5 21:52:28 2013 From: mike at haven2.com (Mike O'Connor) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 15:52:28 -0600 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP In-Reply-To: <6D0551B2-EDE5-48F6-AA9F-1D09648A9888@internode.on.net> References: <529E1016.5070403@key-systems.net> <529E1790.5080502@key-systems.net> <249BCFDF-7322-4596-A4F2-9B2C93CE1FCC@internode.on.net> <529EF6A5.8030606@key-systems.net> <529F289E.5010104@key-systems.net> <529F361F.3020701@key-systems.net> <6C977942-9725-461C-821C-CA1FBEAC7728@haven2.com> <52A05932.5010909@key-systems.net> <41EF7B4B-0BA7-4009-8BE0-24CF24CE6425@haven2.com> <03ed01cef1b4$ebb77840$c32668c0$@golding@astutium.com> <041d01cef1ba$cf491f50$6ddb5df0$@golding@astutium.com> <6D0551B2-EDE5-48F6-AA9F-1D09648A9888@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <7274562F-C92D-4F31-B783-072E0951170E@haven2.com> hi all, Marika and i came up with some ideas on moving this conversation forward. these ideas were battle tested and refined on the drafting subgroup call that happened this morning. see what you think. first, thanks all for the lively conversation this week. it helped me understand a few things better and shaped this scheme. here's the short version of the idea. let's: 1) develop a series of scenarios and use them to explore the boundaries of policy and roles. 2) acknowledge that there's a gap right now -- the implementation of registrant-transfer in IRTP-C. once this is further along we may find that there are other options that registrants can use pursue certain complaints, that the policy is insufficient, that additional mechanisms need to be developed, etc. in a sense, we're ahead of that process -- but we're also coming across issues that need to be fed into it. since we're ahead, we might as well document those things as we come across them. 3) also acknowledge that the TDRP is currently not very visible to registrants, nor do they understand either the policy or the role of registrars in implementing it. perhaps we can beef up the notification that registrars provide about the policy, and registrants options as to how they can proceed, especially at the time when a registrant comes to the registrar with a problem. here's some more detailed material about the "scenarios" idea. when building our scenarios, let's use these dimensions for starters. you're encouraged to invent more dimensions, by the way. - policy - existing IRTP/TDRP clearly applies - "inter registrant transfer" version of IRTP clearly applies - ICANN policy clearly does NOT apply - murky puzzler - parties - disputes entirely between registrants - disputes entirely between registrars - disputes between registrants where registrars may be a party to the dispute - disputes between registrars where registrants may be a party to the dispute - murky puzzler - role of ICANN Compliance - Compliance clearly has a role under existing IRTP/TDRP policy - Compliance could have a role under the "inter registrant transfer" version of IRTP - Compliance clearly does NOT have a role under any circumstance - murky puzzler let's run a few scenarios through that sifter and see whether this is getting us anywhere. i'm hopeful. thanks all, mikey PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vgreimann at key-systems.net Fri Dec 6 09:27:26 2013 From: vgreimann at key-systems.net (Volker Greimann) Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 10:27:26 +0100 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP In-Reply-To: References: <529E1016.5070403@key-systems.net> <529E1790.5080502@key-systems.net> <249BCFDF-7322-4596-A4F2-9B2C93CE1FCC@internode.on.net> <529EF6A5.8030606@key-systems.net> <529F289E.5010104@key-systems.net> <529F361F.3020701@key-systems.net> <6C977942-9725-461C-821C-CA1FBEAC7728@haven2.com> <52A05932.5010909@key-systems.net> <41EF7B4B-0BA7-4009-8BE0-24CF24CE6425@haven2.com> <03ed01cef1b4$ebb77840$c32668c0$@golding@astutium.com> Message-ID: <52A1987E.3010406@key-systems.net> Maybe I can answer this one: The role of compliance is to investigate compliance issues with regard to registrar obligations under the RAA and compliance policies. If either the gaining or losing registrar is found by compliance to have violated its obligations, enforcement action by compliance would include giving that registrar time to fix the breach, i.e. solve the registrants issue. Volker > hi Rob, > > can you expand on why you prefer the idea that Compliance get's involved over making a determination? i think we're on to something here, so i'm just looking for ideas on what the appropriate role would be for Compliance, not trying to mousetrap you. > > thanks, > > mikey > > > > On Dec 5, 2013, at 6:24 AM, "Rob Golding" wrote: > >>> so can we say that in cases where the registrant and their registrar >>> disagree about the merits of the case, they should go to Compliance for >>> a determination? >> For compliance to get involved, yes. >> >> Rob >> > > PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) > > -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. Mit freundlichen Gr??en, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. From kdorrain at adrforum.com Fri Dec 6 15:40:17 2013 From: kdorrain at adrforum.com (Dorrain, Kristine) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 15:40:17 +0000 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP In-Reply-To: <52A1987E.3010406@key-systems.net> References: <529E1016.5070403@key-systems.net> <529E1790.5080502@key-systems.net> <249BCFDF-7322-4596-A4F2-9B2C93CE1FCC@internode.on.net> <529EF6A5.8030606@key-systems.net> <529F289E.5010104@key-systems.net> <529F361F.3020701@key-systems.net> <6C977942-9725-461C-821C-CA1FBEAC7728@haven2.com> <52A05932.5010909@key-systems.net> <41EF7B4B-0BA7-4009-8BE0-24CF24CE6425@haven2.com> <03ed01cef1b4$ebb77840$c32668c0$@golding@astutium.com> <52A1987E.3010406@key-systems.net> Message-ID: I'm not disagreeing. I'm thinking about this from a capacity concern. In order to find the registrant disputes that qualify as a registrar violation, ICANN will have to sift through a lot of claims. Some meritorious, some marginally so, many a complete waste of time. This is particularly true because ICANN compliance doesn't charge to investigate claims, so there is no harm to a registrant for whining to ICANN about frivolous matters. While, from an academic standpoint, ICANN compliance maybe "should" weed out registrant concerns with their registrars, one by one, if they do not have the capacity, tossing this to compliance will have the same effect as doing nothing. Perhaps the conversation is heading towards how to recommend ICANN deal with this or we recommend a staff person be hired, whatever. I just think that whatever we propose, we need to be mindful of the practicalities of it as well. Kristine -----Original Message----- From: owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org [mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 3:27 AM To: Mike O'Connor; gnso-irtpd at icann.org Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP Maybe I can answer this one: The role of compliance is to investigate compliance issues with regard to registrar obligations under the RAA and compliance policies. If either the gaining or losing registrar is found by compliance to have violated its obligations, enforcement action by compliance would include giving that registrar time to fix the breach, i.e. solve the registrants issue. Volker > hi Rob, > > can you expand on why you prefer the idea that Compliance get's involved over making a determination? i think we're on to something here, so i'm just looking for ideas on what the appropriate role would be for Compliance, not trying to mousetrap you. > > thanks, > > mikey > > > > On Dec 5, 2013, at 6:24 AM, "Rob Golding" wrote: > >>> so can we say that in cases where the registrant and their registrar >>> disagree about the merits of the case, they should go to Compliance >>> for a determination? >> For compliance to get involved, yes. >> >> Rob >> > > PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: > OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) > > -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. Mit freundlichen Gr??en, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. From vgreimann at key-systems.net Fri Dec 6 15:46:21 2013 From: vgreimann at key-systems.net (Volker Greimann) Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 16:46:21 +0100 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP In-Reply-To: References: <529E1016.5070403@key-systems.net> <529E1790.5080502@key-systems.net> <249BCFDF-7322-4596-A4F2-9B2C93CE1FCC@internode.on.net> <529EF6A5.8030606@key-systems.net> <529F289E.5010104@key-systems.net> <529F361F.3020701@key-systems.net> <6C977942-9725-461C-821C-CA1FBEAC7728@haven2.com> <52A05932.5010909@key-systems.net> <41EF7B4B-0BA7-4009-8BE0-24CF24CE6425@haven2.com> <03ed01cef1b4$ebb77840$c32668c0$@golding@astutium.com> <52A1987E.3010406@key-systems.net> Message-ID: <52A1F14D.9090606@key-systems.net> As an aside n this, ICANN already weeds out frivolous complaints. Whois complaints have tremendously improved over the past 2 years due to ICANN staff at least lookijng at them before forwarding. And we also see a few transfer complaints coming trough ICANN. These are usually easily resolved as it was about a reseller that went under oder incommunicado and the registrant needed their auth-codes. So what I am getting at is that there already is such a function in place within ICANN compliance that deals with registrant complaints over registrars. Volker > I'm not disagreeing. I'm thinking about this from a capacity concern. > > In order to find the registrant disputes that qualify as a registrar violation, ICANN will have to sift through a lot of claims. Some meritorious, some marginally so, many a complete waste of time. This is particularly true because ICANN compliance doesn't charge to investigate claims, so there is no harm to a registrant for whining to ICANN about frivolous matters. > > While, from an academic standpoint, ICANN compliance maybe "should" weed out registrant concerns with their registrars, one by one, if they do not have the capacity, tossing this to compliance will have the same effect as doing nothing. > > Perhaps the conversation is heading towards how to recommend ICANN deal with this or we recommend a staff person be hired, whatever. I just think that whatever we propose, we need to be mindful of the practicalities of it as well. > > Kristine > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org [mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann > Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 3:27 AM > To: Mike O'Connor; gnso-irtpd at icann.org > Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP > > > Maybe I can answer this one: > > The role of compliance is to investigate compliance issues with regard to registrar obligations under the RAA and compliance policies. If either the gaining or losing registrar is found by compliance to have violated its obligations, enforcement action by compliance would include giving that registrar time to fix the breach, i.e. solve the registrants issue. > > Volker >> hi Rob, >> >> can you expand on why you prefer the idea that Compliance get's involved over making a determination? i think we're on to something here, so i'm just looking for ideas on what the appropriate role would be for Compliance, not trying to mousetrap you. >> >> thanks, >> >> mikey >> >> >> >> On Dec 5, 2013, at 6:24 AM, "Rob Golding" wrote: >> >>>> so can we say that in cases where the registrant and their registrar >>>> disagree about the merits of the case, they should go to Compliance >>>> for a determination? >>> For compliance to get involved, yes. >>> >>> Rob >>> >> PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: >> OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) >> >> > > -- > Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. > > Mit freundlichen Gr??en, > > Volker A. Greimann > - Rechtsabteilung - > > Key-Systems GmbH > Im Oberen Werk 1 > 66386 St. Ingbert > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 > Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net > > Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com > > Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: > www.facebook.com/KeySystems > www.twitter.com/key_systems > > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin > Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP > www.keydrive.lu > > Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. > > -------------------------------------------- > > Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. > > Best regards, > > Volker A. Greimann > - legal department - > > Key-Systems GmbH > Im Oberen Werk 1 > 66386 St. Ingbert > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 > Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net > > Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com > > Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: > www.facebook.com/KeySystems > www.twitter.com/key_systems > > CEO: Alexander Siffrin > Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP > www.keydrive.lu > > This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. > > > -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verf?gung. Mit freundlichen Gr??en, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur f?r den angegebenen Empf?nger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Ver?ffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empf?nger ist unzul?ssig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht f?r Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. From nathalie.peregrine at icann.org Mon Dec 9 18:11:53 2013 From: nathalie.peregrine at icann.org (Nathalie Peregrine) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 10:11:53 -0800 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] MP3 IRTP D WG - Monday 09 December 2013 at 1600 UTC Message-ID: Dear All, The next Inter-Registrar Transfer Policy (IRTP) Part D Working Group meeting will be held on Monday 16th December 2013 Please find the MP3 recording for the IRTP Part D Working Group call held on Monday 09 December 2013 at 16:00 UTC at: http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-irtp-d-20131209-en.mp3 On page: http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar#dec The recordings and transcriptions of the calls are posted on the GNSO Master Calendar page: http://gnso.icann.org/calendar/ Attendees: James Bladel - RrSG Avri Doria - NCSG Volker Greimann - RrSG Mikey O'Connor - ISPCP Graeme Bunton - RrSG Barbara Knight - RySG Kevin Erdman - IPC Holly Raiche - ALAC Chris Chaplow - CBUC Bob Mountain - RrSG Rob Golding - RrSG Kristine Dorrain - NAF Bartlett Morgan - NCUC Apologies: Paul Diaz - RySG Angie Graves - CBUC ICANN staff: Caitlin Tubergen Lars Hoffmann Nathalie Peregrine ** Please let me know if your name has been left off the list ** Mailing list archives: http://forum.icann.org/lists/gnso-irtpd/ Wiki page: https://community.icann.org/x/B4JwAg Thank you. Kind regards, Nathalie Peregrine Adobe Connect chat transcript for Monday 09 December 2013: Nathalie Peregrine:Dear all, Welcome to the IRTP Part D WG call on Monday 9th December 2013 Avri Doria:Hard to read on tablet Avri Doria:Thanks good now Nathalie Peregrine:Kevin Erdman has joined the call Nathalie Peregrine:Chris Chaplow has joined the audio bridge Nathalie Peregrine:Rob Golding has joinded the AC room Chris Chaplow:Thanks Natalie, apologies for late join, client was on the phone Rob Golding (Astutium-1471):@james - totally agree - we get those all the time - and advise they talk to a solicitor Rob Golding (Astutium-1471):As registrar we only deal with the people listed as registrant Bladel:But Rob - both Registrant and Admin Contacts have the authority to transfer. Kristine Dorrain:Sorry I'm late...got sidetracked in another meeting. Rob Golding (Astutium-1471):I was referring to the 'ownership' argument we often see Rob Golding (Astutium-1471):Can you even transfe a domain with provacy on - we always advise clients turn it off at the existing registrar before transferring them to us Rob Golding (Astutium-1471):yes, you captured it great :) Nathalie Peregrine:Kristine Dorrain has joined the AC room Barbara Knight - RySG:The one that we hear the most is when the admin contact authorizes that transfer and the registrant doesn't agree with it Bladel:Rob - our privacy service will always NACK transfer requests, utnil it is canceled or removed. Rob Golding (Astutium-1471):James - so will ours Barbara Knight - RySG:Thanks James and Rob. That is encouraging Chris Chaplow:Thanks Volker Rob Golding (Astutium-1471):No, the registrant is the registrant :p Rob Golding (Astutium-1471):The registrar still has teh real data and escrows the real data Rob Golding (Astutium-1471):just what is shown on teh whois is not 'public' Rob Golding (Astutium-1471):if a 3rd party os providding that sevice, then yes, they are actually the registrant (i.e. their details are the ones held by the registrar) Bladel:My shuttle is here, so need to run. Thanks Mikey & Team! Barbara Knight - RySG:By James. Safe travels Rob Golding (Astutium-1471):take care james Rob Golding (Astutium-1471):Yes, in that circumstance it _should_ have been dealt with at due-diligence at the company sale, and if they failed to do so need to be sent to legals Kristine Dorrain:Rob, I'm always amazed at the lack of due diligence... Rob Golding (Astutium-1471):@kristine - I'm not :) Kristine Dorrain:oooooh, that's unfortunate. "( Chris Chaplow:yes good plan Holly Raiche:Thanks MIkey Rob Golding (Astutium-1471):thanks mikey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mike at haven2.com Mon Dec 9 20:39:04 2013 From: mike at haven2.com (Mike O'Connor) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 14:39:04 -0600 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] here's a lightly reworded version of the scenarios we described on the call today Message-ID: hi all, the subject says it all. here are the scenarios we came up with. i have two requests. see if i captured them right, if you were proposing them. try to think up other cases that we need to include in our list. thanks, mikey Scenarios The Administrative Contact authorises a transfer but the Registrant is challenging that A Registrar is not participating in resolving an issue with a transfer. Several attempts to engage have been made by the other Registrar, including a message the Emergency Action Contact, to no avail. Two registrants are disputing the right to a domain name after an inter-reigistrar transfer -- registrars went through the right process and have no further information to add. Both registrants were acknowledged at some point in time as being registrants. Both of their names have appeared in Whois, but they now disagree as to who the true registrant is. +- Administrative and Registrant contacts are spread across two parts of an organization and there's a disagreement between them as to the validity of a transfer Different contacts or departments within an organization have conflicts +- A registrant-claimant approaches a Registrar claiming that they are the registrant rather than the Proxy Service Provider to whom the domain name is registered Maybe refer this edge case to the PPS WG? Proxy is acting as an agent Maybe a subset of the "confusion of roles within an organization" case +- One registrant is completely unknown to the registrars A website designer registers a domain under their name on behalf of a customer for whom they build a website. They are challenged by their customer who claims to be the registrant but has never appeared in any Whois record at any time. A website designer registers a domain under their name on behalf of a customer, and then goes out of business - causing domain to expire, leaving registrants to resolve the issue with a registrar who has never heard of them. +- Registrant says "I'm the owner, but I'm not in control of the name, here's why, help me get it back" Two business partners split and claim rights on the domain name Contract disputes sometimes enter into this Company goes through an ownership/structure change -- the original owner tries to retain the name +- Privacy services -- losing registrar doesn't remove privacy service, the gaining registrar can't validate the identity of the person registering the name This is also the case for any other entity that's providing the privacy service -- resellers or other 3rd parties for example Somebody registers a domain name as part of their job, does it under their own personal account, they and company part ways, which trumps? Person works at the company -- maybe in the corporate account -- their contact info is listed -- they have left the company and access to the account and controlling email address is no longer possible PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From h.raiche at internode.on.net Mon Dec 9 21:50:18 2013 From: h.raiche at internode.on.net (Holly Raiche) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 08:50:18 +1100 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] here's a lightly reworded version of the scenarios we described on the call today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mikey The one I would add is the proxy situation where the admin contact is the proxy - most likely a lawyer, but acting on behalf of the client. Either the law firm goes bust or the lawyer/law firm tries to keep the name - or possibly does not identify that they are acting on behalf of the client who - in legalese - should be the beneficial owner. Holly On 10/12/2013, at 7:39 AM, Mike O'Connor wrote: > > hi all, > > the subject says it all. here are the scenarios we came up with. i have two requests. see if i captured them right, if you were proposing them. try to think up other cases that we need to include in our list. > > thanks, > > mikey > > Scenarios > > The Administrative Contact authorises a transfer but the Registrant is challenging that > > A Registrar is not participating in resolving an issue with a transfer. Several attempts to engage have been made by the other Registrar, including a message the Emergency Action Contact, to no avail. > > Two registrants are disputing the right to a domain name after an inter-reigistrar transfer -- registrars went through the right process and have no further information to add. > > Both registrants were acknowledged at some point in time as being registrants. Both of their names have appeared in Whois, but they now disagree as to who the true registrant is. > > +- Administrative and Registrant contacts are spread across two parts of an organization and there's a disagreement between them as to the validity of a transfer > > Different contacts or departments within an organization have conflicts > +- A registrant-claimant approaches a Registrar claiming that they are the registrant rather than the Proxy Service Provider to whom the domain name is registered > > Maybe refer this edge case to the PPS WG? > Proxy is acting as an agent > Maybe a subset of the "confusion of roles within an organization" case > +- One registrant is completely unknown to the registrars > > A website designer registers a domain under their name on behalf of a customer for whom they build a website. They are challenged by their customer who claims to be the registrant but has never appeared in any Whois record at any time. > > A website designer registers a domain under their name on behalf of a customer, and then goes out of business - causing domain to expire, leaving registrants to resolve the issue with a registrar who has never heard of them. > > +- Registrant says "I'm the owner, but I'm not in control of the name, here's why, help me get it back" > > Two business partners split and claim rights on the domain name > Contract disputes sometimes enter into this > Company goes through an ownership/structure change -- the original owner tries to retain the name > +- Privacy services -- losing registrar doesn't remove privacy service, the gaining registrar can't validate the identity of the person registering the name > > This is also the case for any other entity that's providing the privacy service -- resellers or other 3rd parties for example > > Somebody registers a domain name as part of their job, does it under their own personal account, they and company part ways, which trumps? > > Person works at the company -- maybe in the corporate account -- their contact info is listed -- they have left the company and access to the account and controlling email address is no longer possible > > PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lars.hoffmann at icann.org Fri Dec 13 15:19:50 2013 From: lars.hoffmann at icann.org (Lars Hoffmann) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 07:19:50 -0800 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] Monday's agenda Message-ID: Dear all, Please find below the draft agenda for Monday's call. Best wishes, Lars Proposed Draft Agenda for IRTP Part D PDP Working Group, Monday 16 December 2013, 16.00 UTC (For other places: http://tinyurl.com/o44avnk) 1. Roll Call / SOI Updates 2. Feedback from ICANN Compliance on some of the Scenarios discussed last week 3. Continued debate on Charter Question c) 4. Next steps / confirm next meeting ---- Adobe Connect WITH AUDIO enabled: http://icann.adobeconnect.com/irtppartd/ The link to the IRTP Part D Working Group Wiki pages: https://community.icann.org/x/B4JwAg Mailing list archives: http://forum.icann.org/lists/gnso-irtpd/ The recordings and transcriptions of the calls are posted on the GNSO Master Calendar page: http://gnso.icann.org/calendar/ The dial-in details are below ? please let me know if you require a dial-out. _________________________________________________________________________ Participant passcode: IRTP For security reasons, the passcode will be required to join the call. ____________________________________________________________________________ Dial in numbers: Country Toll Numbers Freephone/Toll Free Number ARGENTINA 0800-777-0519 AUSTRALIA ADELAIDE: 61-8-8121-4842 1-800-657-260 AUSTRALIA BRISBANE: 61-7-3102-0944 1-800-657-260 AUSTRALIA CANBERRA: 61-2-6100-1944 1-800-657-260 AUSTRALIA MELBOURNE: 61-3-9010-7713 1-800-657-260 AUSTRALIA PERTH: 61-8-9467-5223 1-800-657-260 AUSTRALIA SYDNEY: 61-2-8205-8129 1-800-657-260 AUSTRIA 43-1-92-81-113 0800-005-259 BELGIUM 32-2-400-9861 0800-3-8795 BRAZIL 0800-7610651 CHILE 1230-020-2863 CHINA CHINA A: 86-400-810-4789 10800-712-1670 CHINA CHINA B: 86-400-810-4789 10800-120-1670 COLOMBIA 01800-9-156474 CZECH REPUBLIC 420-2-25-98-56-64 800-700-177 DENMARK 45-7014-0284 8088-8324 ESTONIA 800-011-1093 FINLAND Land Line: 106-33-203 0-800-9-14610 FINLAND Mobile: 09-106-33-203 0-800-9-14610 FRANCE LYON: 33-4-26-69-12-85 080-511-1496 FRANCE MARSEILLE: 33-4-86-06-00-85 080-511-1496 FRANCE PARIS: 33-1-70-70-60-72 080-511-1496 GERMANY 49-69-2222-20362 0800-664-4247 GREECE 30-80-1-100-0687 00800-12-7312 HONG KONG 852-3001-3863 800-962-856 HUNGARY 06-800-12755 INDIA 000-800-852-1268 INDONESIA 001-803-011-3982 IRELAND 353-1-246-7646 1800-992-368 ISRAEL 1-80-9216162 ITALY 39-02-3600-6007 800-986-383 JAPAN OSAKA: 81-6-7739-4799 0066-33-132439 JAPAN TOKYO: 81-3-5539-5191 0066-33-132439 LATVIA 8000-3185 LUXEMBOURG 352-27-000-1364 MALAYSIA 1-800-81-3065 MEXICO 001-866-376-9696 NETHERLANDS 31-20-718-8588 0800-023-4378 NEW ZEALAND 64-9-970-4771 0800-447-722 NORWAY 47-21-590-062 800-15157 PANAMA 011-001-800-5072065 PERU 0800-53713 PHILIPPINES 63-2-858-3716 POLAND 00-800-1212572 PORTUGAL 8008-14052 RUSSIA 8-10-8002-0144011 SINGAPORE 65-6883-9230 800-120-4663 SLOVAK REPUBLIC 421-2-322-422-25 SOUTH AFRICA 080-09-80414 SOUTH KOREA 82-2-6744-1083 00798-14800-7352 SPAIN 34-91-414-25-33 800-300-053 SWEDEN 46-8-566-19-348 0200-884-622 SWITZERLAND 41-44-580-6398 0800-120-032 TAIWAN 886-2-2795-7379 00801-137-797 THAILAND 001-800-1206-66056 UNITED KINGDOM BIRMINGHAM: 44-121-210-9025 0808-238-6029 UNITED KINGDOM GLASGOW: 44-141-202-3225 0808-238-6029 UNITED KINGDOM LEEDS: 44-113-301-2125 0808-238-6029 UNITED KINGDOM LONDON: 44-20-7108-6370 0808-238-6029 UNITED KINGDOM MANCHESTER: 44-161-601-1425 0808-238-6029 URUGUAY 000-413-598-3421 USA 1-517-345-9004 866-692-5726 VENEZUELA 0800-1-00-3702 Restrictions may exist when accessing freephone/toll free numbers using a mobile telephone. ---------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mike at haven2.com Sun Dec 15 13:29:45 2013 From: mike at haven2.com (Mike O'Connor) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 07:29:45 -0600 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] a good example of the "employee takes the domain name with them" use-case -- and how UDRP was the wrong tool to use Message-ID: hi all, i thought of our use-case conversation when i saw this piece by Mike Berkins (www.thedomains.com). this is a UDRP case that failed mostly because UDRP wasn't the right way to solve this problem. this emphasizes for me the need for a clear description, somewhere, of what course people should pursue under different use-cases. here's the link; http://www.thedomains.com/2013/12/09/udrp-panel-fails-to-order-transfer-of-domain-back-from-ex-employee/ and here's the write-up; UDRP Panel Fails To Order Transfer Of Domain Back From Ex-Employee 2013 December 9 by Michael Berkens Follow @TheDomains The Law Firm Dr. Khalid Alnowaiser of Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, just lost its bid to get the domain name lfkan.com in a UDRP The Complainant is a law firm established in 1996, with offices in Riyadh and Jeddah, Saudi Arabia. The Complainant offers a range of legal services to local and international clients, in both Arabic and English. Although the one member UDRP panel found that ?The record suggests bad faith on the part of a disaffected former employee of the Complainant, who seems to have hijacked the Domain Name and thereby caused injury to the Complainant?s business. ? ?The Complainant may be able to pursue other legal remedies for this conduct, but the UDRP offers no remedy without establishing rights in a relevant mark, which the Complainant has failed to do.? ?The Complainant does not claim a registered trademark right. According to the Complaint, the Complainant has been ?known in the market? since 1996 by the initials ?LFKAN?: ?LF? for ?Law Firm?, ?K? for ?Khalid?, and ?N? for ?Nowaiser?, eliding the prefix ?AL? (the definite article ?the? in Arabic) because it so commonly appears at the beginning of surnames in Saudi Arabia. (The Complaint does not explain why the letter ?A? is used nonetheless in the abbreviation.) The Complainant asserts, with support from DomainTools screen shots of historical WhoIs records, that the Complainant registered and used the Domain Name from November 2000 until July 2013 for its firm website and email addresses. In July 2013, however, the registration of the Domain Name was updated, apparently by Mr. S. Faraz, who was the Complainant?s employee responsible for information technology and whose firm email address was formerly listed in the administrative and technical contact details for the Domain Name. According to the Complaint, the firm had recently terminated Mr. Faraz for unrelated reasons. Mr. Faraz refused to furnish the password used to administer the Domain Name registration, and he changed the name servers so that the firm?s website was no longer displayed and its email addresses were deactivated. At the time of this Decision, the Domain Name resolves to a version of the Complainant?s website that appears not to display information dated more recently than 2012. The current registration details for the Domain Name show the registering organization as ?andrewsmith?, which does not appear to be a registered legal entity in the United Kingdom or in Saudi Arabia. The administrative and technical contact person is listed as ?andrew smith?, with a Google Gmail address. (The Complaint attaches a message from Gmail regarding the creation of this particular Gmail account, which was found on the firm laptop used by Mr. Faraz). The updated postal address in the WhoIs database shows London as the registrant?s city and lists a London postal code. However, Guam is shown as the state or province, and Guam, of course, is a territory of the United States of America. The telephone number given for the administrative and technical contact is actually the Complainant?s telephone number in Saudi Arabia. On the face of it, then, the registration data are inaccurate and misleading. The Policy does not require a registered mark right, but a complainant relying on a common law or unregistered mark right must demonstrate that the mark has acquired secondary meaning: ?Consensus view: The complainant must show that the name has become a distinctive identifier associated with the complainant or its goods or services. Relevant evidence of such ?secondary meaning? includes length and amount of sales under the trademark, the nature and extent of advertising, consumer surveys and media recognition. [...] a conclusory allegation of common law or unregistered rights (even if undisputed) would not normally suffice; specific assertions of relevant use of the claimed mark supported by evidence as appropriate would be required.? WIPO Overview of WIPO Panel Views on Selected UDRP Questions, Second Edition (?WIPO Overview 2.0?), paragraph 1.7.) ?The Complainant has simply not furnished such evidence in this proceeding. The Complainant only asserts that it has been ?known in the market? by the initials ?LFKAN? since 1996. However, the evidence in the record concerns only the use of those initials in the Domain Name itself.? The Complainant relies on the fact that many of the published articles and interviews displayed Dr. Alnowaiser?s email address, which used the Domain Name. An email address is not sufficient to establish a trademark, or the basis for the filing of a UDRP action. There is no evidence in the record, for example, showing that the initials ?LFKAN? are used on the firm?s stationery, advertising, or business cards. It is telling that even the Complainant?s website does not prominently display the initials ?LFKAN?. Instead, it is headed ?The Law Firm of Dr. Khalid Alnowaiser & Partners?. ?The Complainant must establish that the Domain Name is identical or confusingly similar to ?a trademark or service mark in which the complainant has rights?. The Complainant does not establish that unregistered trademarks are recognized under common law or otherwise in Saudi Arabia, or that the Complainant?s initials are otherwise legally protected in any jurisdiction. Even if such protection were theoretically available, the Complainant has not demonstrated on this record that the initials ?LFKAN? have acquired secondary meaning as a distinctive identifier of the Complainant or its goods or services in any geographic market.? ?The Panel concludes that the first element of the Complaint has not been established.? PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From h.raiche at internode.on.net Sun Dec 15 21:52:17 2013 From: h.raiche at internode.on.net (Holly Raiche) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 08:52:17 +1100 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] a good example of the "employee takes the domain name with them" use-case -- and how UDRP was the wrong tool to use In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mikey Fascinating reading. And it fleshes out one of our scenarios - and inter-company dispute that has little to do with trade mark law and everything to do about a disaffected employee who absconds - in this case with the domain name. The next question relates to a response James gave, really in passing, where it is the company that should be seen as the owner (maybe this is something that needs further work?). Holly On 16/12/2013, at 12:29 AM, Mike O'Connor wrote: > hi all, > > i thought of our use-case conversation when i saw this piece by Mike Berkins (www.thedomains.com). this is a UDRP case that failed mostly because UDRP wasn't the right way to solve this problem. this emphasizes for me the need for a clear description, somewhere, of what course people should pursue under different use-cases. > > here's the link; > > http://www.thedomains.com/2013/12/09/udrp-panel-fails-to-order-transfer-of-domain-back-from-ex-employee/ > > and here's the write-up; > > UDRP Panel Fails To Order Transfer Of Domain Back From Ex-Employee > > 2013 December 9 > by Michael Berkens > Follow @TheDomains > > The Law Firm Dr. Khalid Alnowaiser of Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, just lost its bid to get the domain name lfkan.com in a UDRP > > The Complainant is a law firm established in 1996, with offices in Riyadh and Jeddah, Saudi Arabia. The Complainant offers a range of legal services to local and international clients, in both Arabic and English. > > Although the one member UDRP panel found that ?The record suggests bad faith on the part of a disaffected former employee of the Complainant, who seems to have hijacked the Domain Name and thereby caused injury to the Complainant?s business. ? > > ?The Complainant may be able to pursue other legal remedies for this conduct, but the UDRP offers no remedy without establishing rights in a relevant mark, which the Complainant has failed to do.? > > ?The Complainant does not claim a registered trademark right. > > According to the Complaint, the Complainant has been ?known in the market? since 1996 by the initials ?LFKAN?: ?LF? for ?Law Firm?, ?K? for ?Khalid?, and ?N? for ?Nowaiser?, eliding the prefix ?AL? (the definite article ?the? in Arabic) because it so commonly appears at the beginning of surnames in Saudi Arabia. (The Complaint does not explain why the letter ?A? is used nonetheless in the abbreviation.) > > The Complainant asserts, with support from DomainTools screen shots of historical WhoIs records, that the Complainant registered and used the Domain Name from November 2000 until July 2013 for its firm website and email addresses. > > In July 2013, however, the registration of the Domain Name was updated, apparently by Mr. S. Faraz, who was the Complainant?s employee responsible for information technology and whose firm email address was formerly listed in the administrative and technical contact details for the Domain Name. > > According to the Complaint, the firm had recently terminated Mr. Faraz for unrelated reasons. > > Mr. Faraz refused to furnish the password used to administer the Domain Name registration, and he changed the name servers so that the firm?s website was no longer displayed and its email addresses were deactivated. At the time of this Decision, the Domain Name resolves to a version of the Complainant?s website that appears not to display information dated more recently than 2012. > > The current registration details for the Domain Name show the registering organization as ?andrewsmith?, which does not appear to be a registered legal entity in the United Kingdom or in Saudi Arabia. > > The administrative and technical contact person is listed as ?andrew smith?, with a Google Gmail address. (The Complaint attaches a message from Gmail regarding the creation of this particular Gmail account, which was found on the firm laptop used by Mr. Faraz). > > The updated postal address in the WhoIs database shows London as the registrant?s city and lists a London postal code. > > However, Guam is shown as the state or province, and Guam, of course, is a territory of the United States of America. The telephone number given for the administrative and technical contact is actually the Complainant?s telephone number in Saudi Arabia. On the face of it, then, the registration data are inaccurate and misleading. > > The Policy does not require a registered mark right, but a complainant relying on a common law or unregistered mark right must demonstrate that the mark has acquired secondary meaning: > > ?Consensus view: The complainant must show that the name has become a distinctive identifier associated with the complainant or its goods or services. Relevant evidence of such ?secondary meaning? includes length and amount of sales under the trademark, the nature and extent of advertising, consumer surveys and media recognition. [...] a conclusory allegation of common law or unregistered rights (even if undisputed) would not normally suffice; specific assertions of relevant use of the claimed mark supported by evidence as appropriate would be required.? WIPO Overview of WIPO Panel Views on Selected UDRP Questions, Second Edition (?WIPO Overview 2.0?), paragraph 1.7.) > > ?The Complainant has simply not furnished such evidence in this proceeding. The Complainant only asserts that it has been ?known in the market? by the initials ?LFKAN? since 1996. However, the evidence in the record concerns only the use of those initials in the Domain Name itself.? > > The Complainant relies on the fact that many of the published articles and interviews displayed Dr. Alnowaiser?s email address, which used the Domain Name. An email address is not sufficient to establish a trademark, or the basis for the filing of a UDRP action. There is no evidence in the record, for example, showing that the initials ?LFKAN? are used on the firm?s stationery, advertising, or business cards. It is telling that even the Complainant?s website does not prominently display the initials ?LFKAN?. Instead, it is headed ?The Law Firm of Dr. Khalid Alnowaiser & Partners?. > > ?The Complainant must establish that the Domain Name is identical or confusingly similar to ?a trademark or service mark in which the complainant has rights?. The Complainant does not establish that unregistered trademarks are recognized under common law or otherwise in Saudi Arabia, or that the Complainant?s initials are otherwise legally protected in any jurisdiction. Even if such protection were theoretically available, the Complainant has not demonstrated on this record that the initials ?LFKAN? have acquired secondary meaning as a distinctive identifier of the Complainant or its goods or services in any geographic market.? > > ?The Panel concludes that the first element of the Complaint has not been established.? > > > PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From julia.charvolen at icann.org Mon Dec 16 19:10:34 2013 From: julia.charvolen at icann.org (Julia Charvolen) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 11:10:34 -0800 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] MP3 IRTP D WG - Monday 16 December 2013 Message-ID: Dear All, The next Inter-Registrar Transfer Policy (IRTP) Part D Working Group meeting will be held on Monday 06 January 2014. Please find the MP3 recording for the IRTP Part D Working Group call held on Monday 16 December 2013 at 16:00 UTC at: http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-irtp-d-20131216-en.mp3 On page: http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar#dec The recordings and transcriptions of the calls are posted on the GNSO Master Calendar page: http://gnso.icann.org/calendar/ Attendees: James Bladel - RrSG Avri Doria ? NCSG Mikey O'Connor ? ISPCP Graeme Bunton - RrSG Kristine Dorrain ? NAF Barbara Knight ? RySG Kevin Erdman - IPC Holly Raiche ? ALAC Chris Chaplow ? CBUC Bartlett Morgan ? NCUC Chris Chaplow ? CBUC Holly Raiche - ALAC Apologies: Paul Diaz ? RySG Bob Mountain - RrSG ICANN staff: Marika Konings Lars Hoffmann Caitlin Tubergen Carlos Alvarez Maguy Serad Julia Charvolen ** Please let me know if your name has been left off the list ** Mailing list archives: http://forum.icann.org/lists/gnso-irtpd/ Wiki page: https://community.icann.org/x/B4JwAg Thank you. Kind regards, Julia Charvolen Adobe Connect chat transcript for Monday 16 December 2013: Lars Hoffmann:Welcome to the IRTP Part D PDP Working Group on Monday 16 December 2013 Carlos Alvarez:Not yet, I'm coming in in about a minute and a half Barbara Knight - RySG:Hi Mikey, I just joined. Sorry that I am running a bit late today Julia Charvolen:Maguy Serad joined the phone bridge Julia Charvolen:Chris Chaplow joined the phone bridge Julia Charvolen:Bartlett Morgan joined the Adobe Connect Bartlett Morgan:hello all Julia Charvolen:Marika joined the phone bridge Chris Chaplow:Company and employee - interesting area Bladel:What is the role in discreprencies/disputes between different fields (e.g. Registrant Name vs. Registrant Organization) in the REgistrant contact of the WHOIS record? Bladel:Some large registrars interpret that, in any dispute, the Registrant Organization field will prevail. Bladel:Is this left to the discretion of the Registrar? Is this practice standard? Should it be? Graeme Bunton:I'm in Holly's turf until the 13th of January Barbara Knight - RySG:I will not be available until 6 January. Kristine Dorrain:I never go anywhere. :) Holly Raiche:Welcome Graeme to Oz Holly Raiche:Happy with that - the 6th is fine Graeme Bunton:I'll still be on vaycay. Holly Raiche:Happy holidays to all Barbara Knight - RySG:Thanks All!!! Happy Holidays!!!! Kristine Dorrain:Happy Holidays! Bartlett Morgan:by all -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lars.hoffmann at icann.org Tue Dec 17 18:55:26 2013 From: lars.hoffmann at icann.org (Lars Hoffmann) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 10:55:26 -0800 Subject: [gnso-irtpd] Summary of Compliance's assessment, p Message-ID: Dear all, Following Monday's call, please fine below's summary of the points that Carlos from ICANN Compliance raised during the call. In case you did not attend the call or would like to listen again, you can find the MP3 recording here. Many thanks and best wishes, Lars >From an ICANN Compliance point of view Scenarios (under IRTP as it stands) in which ICANN Compliance has the authority to act: Regarding the loosing registrar: Auth-code related: - the registrant was not able to retrieve the auth code from the control panel, then the registrant requested the registrar to send it but it was not sent within the required 5 days ----- (the breach in this case is when both conditions are present) - the means provided by the registrar for the registrant to retrieve the auth code are more restrictive than the means provided for the registrant to update its contact or name server information - the registrar sends the Auth Code to someone who is not the registered name holder - the registrar does not even send it at all FOA related: - the registrar does not send the FOA - sends it to someone who is not a Transfer Contact Unlocking of the domain name: - the registrant did not have the means provided by the registrar to unlock the domain name, then the registrant requested the registrar to unlock the domains and the registrar did not unlock them within the five days ----- (the breach in this case is when both conditions are present) Regarding the gaining registrar: Auth-code related: - the registrar allows the transfer without receiving the Auth-code - which would be technically impossible but can theoretically happen (in a scenario also involving registry error) FOA related: - the registrar does not send the FOA - the registrar sends the FOA to someone who is not a Transfer Contact - the registrar allows the transfer without receiving confirmation after sending the FOA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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