[gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP

Tue Dec 3 17:57:51 UTC 2013

I disagree.  The UDRP is designed to correct misbehavior of a valid domain name owner relating to that owner’s use of a domain name, namely that the use of a domain infringes the rights of a trademark owner.  The basis of the complaint is not that the domain name owner did not validly register the domain, but rather that the use of the domain is a trademark violation.  The facts and circumstances of the ownership of trademark rights and the trademark infringement are outside of the knowledge of the registrars and registries.  The UDRP procedures are designed to get the facts in front of the dispute resolution panel to provide the trademark owner with a remedy to trademark infringement that may be difficult or impossible to obtain judicially.

The TDRP is about correcting a bad domain transfer, and the circumstances of the transfer are mostly known to the registrars and registries, but there might be some oversight that a registrar or a registrant would want corrected.  I think we should focus on where the TDRP leaves a registrant or a registrar without a remedy, and only provide more procedures for scenarios where a remedy is not currently available.
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Kevin R Erdman
Reichel IP LLP
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From: Dorrain, Kristine 
Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 12:43 PM
To: 'Volker Greimann' ; James M. Bladel ; Mike O'Connor 
Cc: gnso-irtpd at icann.org 
Subject: RE: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP

I agree.

From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:41 AM
To: Dorrain, Kristine; James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor
Cc: gnso-irtpd at icann.org
Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP

The issue of Trademark aside, I see many more similarities between the UDRP and the issue of legitimate ownership of a domain than between that issue and the TDRP. After all, both are disputes between parties about who should be the legitimate owner of a domain name. 

So while we may not want to open the UDRP to new complaints, we may want to look at creating a UDRP2 that is designed for exactly these issues. 

In both cases the registrar is asked to do certain things in preparation for the dispute and as its result, in both parts the question of the ultimate ownership of a domain name is decided by an independant panel.

Volker

  Just for the record, I think adding a Registrants option to the UDRP would be just as mucked up as adding it here.  In my humble opinion this warrants an entirely new policy or none at all.  We don’t need to reinvent the Rules….UDRPs Rules are great.  Just create the Policy itself, which is entirely TM focused and would be a beast to open up to non-TM holders.  J

  Kristine

  From: owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org [mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann
  Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:09 AM
  To: James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor
  Cc: gnso-irtpd at icann.org
  Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP

  Hi James,

  excellent points there. I think the case with your example is that this is not actually a case where a registrar is a party to the dispute. Maybe it is a star witness required to provide the information only it can provide, but not a party. Those roles are better left to prior and current registrant. 

  This however begs the question if ICANN should implement another process for registrants to solve their disputes, or if this may not be better relegated to a future re-design of the UDRP? We could for example make a recommendation that the UDRP be expanded to cover also domain ownership issues in any future revision of that policy.

  Best,

  Volker

    Good thoughts everyone.  I think perhaps we should try to capture the various scenarios in the “Reasons for Denial” area, where a registrar can legitimately deny a registrant’s request to initiate a TDRP.

    For example: if the Registrant believes that the identity of the registrant is in question, or that they cannot substantiate that they were ever the legitimate registrant (or Transfer Contact) for the name pre-transfer.  If its a scenario in which the registrar has violated the IRTP, (or even the shiny new TDRP we’re developing), then that is a matter for Compliance and the registrar's accreditation could be at-risk.  But we should avoid any process where a registrar is compelled to initiate a TDRP that they believe is without merit, -and- be forced to pay for the proceedings.

    Thanks—

    J.

    From: Mike O'Connor <mike at haven2.com>
    Date: Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 10:09 
    To: Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net>
    Cc: "gnso-irtpd at icann.org" <gnso-irtpd at icann.org>
    Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP

    hi Volker, 

    i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to transfer out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due process in a dispute between registrars.  this was recognized as an oversight in the policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched.

    i don't care how this happens.  registrars are probably in the best position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to leave that discussion up to them.  i like James' "put pressure on Registrars to comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live with anything that fixes that problem.  what i'm not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in their current situation where these decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts.

    On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net> wrote:

    Hi Mike,

    you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first place. 

    If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle the process).

    Volker

      i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP.  that's not the intent.  the intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar.  the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted.  but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high. 

      On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net> wrote:

      I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted parties.

      If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the current process.

      What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes sense. 

      I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc...

      Volker

        Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue 

        ·         In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters between themselves 

        In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance 

        Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings 

        If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal 

        If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed.

        PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) 

-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann- Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander SiffrinHandelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu  Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann- legal department - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander SiffrinRegistration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu  This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.    

      PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) 

-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann- Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander SiffrinHandelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu  Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann- legal department - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander SiffrinRegistration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu  This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.    

    PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.)

-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann- Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander SiffrinHandelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu  Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann- legal department - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander SiffrinRegistration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu  This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.   

-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann- Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander SiffrinHandelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu  Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann- legal department - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander SiffrinRegistration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu  This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.   
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