[gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
Holly Raiche
h.raiche at internode.on.net
Tue Dec 3 21:08:58 UTC 2013
I agree with both Mikey and Kristine
It seems to me that the next step is to specifically ask compliance for their advice on
- any process that the registrant can use
- in what circumstances
- at what cost (if any)
- whether they have sufficient powers to enforce the remedy
- what kind of documentation they would need to ensure themselves that it is a bona fides complaint (taking up Mikey's point)
Once we have all of that information, we can settle whether or not we can remove registrant's from this process - but not until then.
I have talked with the Ombudsman, who told me that he can't handle 80% of the complaints he receives as out of jurisdiction. I suspect, but don't know , that some of them may relate to this issue - and they are not being resolved.
So please, could we fully inform ourselves of what should be in place for a registrant to take a legitimate complaint to Compliance, what remedies are available, at what cost, and what documentation is needed by compliance.
Then we can progress this issue
Holly
On 04/12/2013, at 4:03 AM, Volker Greimann wrote:
>
> Hi Kristine,
>
> yes, there is. It is present on the ICANN pages, and linked from the Internic site.
>
> Here is the transfer-related page:
>
> http://www.icann.org/en/resources/compliance/complaints/transfer
>
> This opens up a form where the registrant can initiate a compliance action against his registrar, and this is a regular process that sees much more use than the TDRP. AFAIK, there already is a ticketing system behind this at ICANN compliance that follows the 1-2-3 compliance process.
>
> Regarding the recourse issue, I have recently learned that one reason that INGOs and IGOs vehemently demanded a process to protect their rights seperate from the UDRP was that they cannot accept the clause that would force them to agree to any local jurisdiction. So I learned that having common jurisdiction may not even be desirable for some registrants.
>
> With regard of determining your "Waht if..." question, I think we first need to seperate out the possible scenarios to determin which course of action is needed. maybe we will find that there already are current processes that fit the bill perfectly.
>
> Volker
>
>
>> Is there a specific mechanism for Registrants to complain about their Registrar? Because I get complaints and I say “go to Compliance” but I don’t think there is a process (or I’m unaware of it). Perhaps, if Compliance is the right home for all Registrant-initiated disputes (which seems to me like a slippery slope because I am pretty sure ICANN’s compliance team is not staffed to handle that volume of complaints), then the work product of this committee is to make a recommendation that ICANN set up a position/ ticketing system/dispute process for Registrant disputes.
>>
>> But I think we have to answer the question. It may be that this stuff doesn’t go in the TDRP at all, but we can’t say Registrants who are the victim of wrongful transfers or failures to transfer have no recourse outside of the court systems because the same jurisdictional issues and timing issues and cost issues that predated the UDRP arise. We need to have some sort of answer to the question “What about when a Registrant is aggrieved (by the Registrar or where the Registrar won’t initiate the TDRP process)”?
>>
>> Kristine
>>
>> From: owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org [mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd at icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 10:22 AM
>> To: Mike O'Connor
>> Cc: gnso-irtpd at icann.org
>> Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
>>
>> Hi Mike,
>> i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to transfer out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due process in a dispute between registrars. this was recognized as an oversight in the policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched.
>> In the first case, the right venue for the registrant is ICANN compliance, where he can lodge a complaint against his registrar.
>> In the second case, I still not see that denying a registrant access to a process not designed for him denies him due process. I do not see that this process is "due" to registrants.
>>
>> i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably in the best position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to leave that discussion up to them. i like James' "put pressure on Registrars to comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live with anything that fixes that problem. what i'm not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in their current situation where these decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts.
>> A registrant can always take recourse with ICANN compliance if his registrar violates its obligations under the RAA (which includes all consensus policies):
>> http://www.icann.org/en/resources/compliance/complaints/transfer
>>
>> Remember, were are purely talking process here, and registrar process violations are a compliance matter. Compliance action will force the violating registrar to fix the breach, therefore resolving the registrants issue.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Volker
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi Mike,
>>
>> you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first place.
>>
>> If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle the process).
>>
>> Volker
>>
>>
>> i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not the intent. the intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar. the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high.
>>
>>
>> On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted parties.
>>
>> If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the current process.
>>
>> What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes sense.
>>
>> I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc...
>>
>> Volker
>>
>> Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue
>>
>> · In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters between themselves
>>
>> In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance
>>
>> Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings
>>
>> If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal
>>
>> If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>
>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>
>> Key-Systems GmbH
>> Im Oberen Werk 1
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>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
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>>
>> --------------------------------------------
>>
>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
>> - legal department -
>>
>> Key-Systems GmbH
>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
>>
>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
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>>
>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
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>>
>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>> www.keydrive.lu
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>
>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>
>> Key-Systems GmbH
>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
>>
>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
>>
>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
>> www.twitter.com/key_systems
>>
>> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
>>
>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>> www.keydrive.lu
>>
>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
>>
>> --------------------------------------------
>>
>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
>> - legal department -
>>
>> Key-Systems GmbH
>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
>>
>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
>>
>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
>> www.twitter.com/key_systems
>>
>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>>
>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>> www.keydrive.lu
>>
>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>
>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>
>> Key-Systems GmbH
>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
>>
>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
>>
>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
>> www.twitter.com/key_systems
>>
>> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
>>
>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>> www.keydrive.lu
>>
>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
>>
>> --------------------------------------------
>>
>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
>> - legal department -
>>
>> Key-Systems GmbH
>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
>>
>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
>>
>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
>> www.twitter.com/key_systems
>>
>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>>
>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>> www.keydrive.lu
>>
>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>
> Volker A. Greimann
> - Rechtsabteilung -
>
> Key-Systems GmbH
> Im Oberen Werk 1
> 66386 St. Ingbert
> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
>
> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
>
> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
> www.twitter.com/key_systems
>
> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
>
> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
> www.keydrive.lu
>
> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
>
> --------------------------------------------
>
> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Volker A. Greimann
> - legal department -
>
> Key-Systems GmbH
> Im Oberen Werk 1
> 66386 St. Ingbert
> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
>
> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
>
> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
> www.twitter.com/key_systems
>
> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>
> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
> www.keydrive.lu
>
> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
>
>
>
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