[Gnso-newgtld-wg] Closed Generics and the 2012 Round

[Michael Flemming]

Hi All,

I have a feeling that we are really starting to go off topic here.
Personally, I have reread this thread and find it very unclear. The policy
and terminology surrounding this topic of closed generic has been
thoroughly discussed within this working group and the previous working
track over countless meetings. The scope of our discussion is outlined very
well in the summary document.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Q6_DxsCvSA_3B7ArncO2U4tWNY3vH7Wi4nINrouR4AI/edit


As Jeff outlined, all TLDs that were subject to the 2012 Closed Generic
issue had resolved any question of being exclusively used as a generic TLD
by changing their application. After changing their application, the
questioned posed to them being a "closed generic" was resolved. Thus,
regardless of whether all applications are processed or not, we can discuss
our policy in terms of subsequent procedures.

I do see that questions were posed on this thread about uncompleted strings
and that is where things started to get a little off-topic. An important
discussion, no doubt, but maybe we can defer that discussion when the list
of strings is provided or recirculated?

Regards,

Michael Flemming

El mié., 28 ago. 2019 a las 7:41, Alexander Schubert
(<alexander at schubert.berlin>) escribió:

> Rubens,
>
>
>
> OK, thanks for sharing.
>
> But again: I am NOT trying to focus on “.final” in specific – and yes:
> it’s bad that your registrar channel dried out.
>
> I am asking in GENERAL:
> Shouldn’t we have policy that “unused, delegated strings” be un-delegated
> by ICANN after a decade – and NOT “renewed”? ESPECIALLY when they are
> generic term or geo-name based?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Alexander
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Rubens Kuhl [mailto:rubensk at nic.br]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 28, 2019 1:35 AM
> *To:* Alexander Schubert <alexander at schubert.berlin>
> *Cc:* gnso-newgtld-wg at icann.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg] Closed Generics and the 2012 Round
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Em 27 de ago de 2019, à(s) 19:23:000, Alexander Schubert <
> alexander at schubert.berlin> escreveu:
>
>
>
> Hi Rubens,
>
> so .final is delegated since 4 years - but was never started up? May I ask
> why (I assume there is a reason: But you have no obligation to share that
> reason of course)?
>
>
>
>
>
> I have been sharing the reason frequently and don't mind repeating it:
> lack of gTLD sales channels in Portuguese-speaking countries such as
> Brazil, as you can see in https://www.internic.net/origin.html .
>
>
>
> When we applied there were 5 or 6 ICANN-accredited registrars in the
> country, now the number is zero.
>
>
>
>
>
> And what do you anticipate might happen once the initial 10 years of
> delegation are over: You applied for a generic term based gTLD - ICANN
> granted you to operate it, you never operated it; should ICANN allow you to
> continue not operating that DNS resource?
>
>
>
> The plan is to find a path forward before that... hopefully much sooner
> than October 2024.
>
>
>
>
> I am not trying to be sarcastic: Just we have to establish policy for
> cases where registries just block the string and never operate it. At least
> when it is a generic or geo-name based string. Because in the end of the
> day non-usage is kind of "closed gTLD" as well, no? I get it that some
> might take a few years to start up - but a DECADE? Once a decade is over -
> the string should be returned into the pool of available strings. Maybe I
> miss some important detail in my train of thought.
>
>
>
> Oh, can I sue ICANN if they don't get a registrar in the country in a
> DECADE ? That would be nice too.
>
>
>
>
>
> Rubens
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Alexander
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rubens Kuhl [mailto:rubensk at nic.br <rubensk at nic.br>]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2019 1:02 AM
> To: Alexander Schubert <alexander at schubert.berlin>
> Cc: gnso-newgtld-wg at icann.org
> Subject: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg] Closed Generics and the 2012 Round
>
> Alexander,
>
> A gTLD is usually said to have been launched after its startup period is
> informed to ICANN and published at
> https://newgtlds.icann.org/en/program-status/sunrise-claims-periods
>
> I can point you to some examples:
> .bom, . final (NIC.br)
> .comsec (Verisign)
> .ads, .boo, .dad, .day, .dev, .eat, .esq, .fly, .here, .ing, .meme, .mov,
> .prof, .rsvp, and .zip (Google Registry) (a good number of Amazon Registry
> TLDs)
>
>
> Rubens
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Em 27 de ago de 2019, à(s) 17:45:000, Alexander Schubert <
> alexander at schubert.berlin> escreveu:
>
> Anne,
>
> So you are claiming that there are generic term based gTLDs that are
> DELEGATED but have not yet launched? Do you have maybe a few examples? When
> where they delegated? And what do you mean by “have not been launched”? At
> least nic.gtld will work, right? Wouldn’t that by itself establish a
> “launch” of sorts? What’s your definition of “launch” in connotation with
> an open, generic term based gTLD?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Alexander
>
>
>
>
> From: Aikman-Scalese, Anne [mailto:AAikman at lrrc.com <AAikman at lrrc.com>]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2019 11:19 PM
> To: alexander at schubert.berlin; gnso-newgtld-wg at icann.org
> Subject: RE: [Gnso-newgtld-wg] Closed Generics and the 2012 Round
>
> Thanks Alexander.  Facts are friendly.  I’ll be interested to see if your
> conclusions match those of the GDD-approved list.
>
> FYI re .home, .corp, and .mail, several applications have not been
> withdrawn (see below listing for seven such applications).  Cherine
> mentioned in one of the SSAC presentations on the Name Collision
> Analysis Project Sessions (NCAP) that the Board wants NCAP/SSAC advice
> on .HOME, CORP, and .MAIL  strings (specifically named in the NCAP) as
> soon as possible.  (Your designation of “forever banned” is not my
> understanding of the current NCAP work on which the Board is waiting
> or even the current state of Sub Pro WG policy recommendations – which
> have not been finalized.  Jeff and Rubens are currently working with
> the NCAP Discussion Group to coordinate. )
>
> .HOME, CORP, and .MAIL Applications not Withdrawn as of 27 AUG 2019
>
> .HOME Contention Set – Charleston Road Registry Inc. (Google) and Dot Home
> LLC are  not withdrawn even though “Not Approved”.   Several other .HOME
> applications were withdrawn.  See
> https://gtldresult.icann.org/applicationstatus/contentionsetdiagram/42
>
> .CORP Contention Set – Charleston Road Registry Inc. (Google) and
> DOTCORP Limited applications are not withdrawn.  See
> https://gtldresult.icann.org/applicationstatus/contentionsetdiagram/86
>
> .MAIL Contention Set – Charleston Road Registry Inc.  (Google), GMO
> Registry, Inc., and Amazon EU S.a.r.l are not withdrawn.  See
> https://gtldresult.icann.org/applicationstatus/contentionsetdiagram/55
>
> Closed Generic Strings Which Converted to Open Status in 2012 but have not
> yet Launched – Fairness Issue
> Regarding strings that converted to open generics (rather than “closed”
>  as per their original 2012 applications),  I note there are those which
> were delegated but have not yet launched.  I can’t imagine it would be
> appropriate for ICANN to deny an Opt-in for the owners of unlaunched
>  strings as to permissive Closed Generic policy developed for upcoming
> rounds.   Such a denial could easily result in a Request for
> Reconsideration, Independent Review Panel complaint, and/or a lawsuit
> against ICANN.  But as Jeff says, this is “out of scope” for our WG and not
> within the Charter.  Thus, I think it would suffice for the WG to alert
> GNSO Council to this consideration when discussing any recommended new
> policy on Closed Generics.  Some examples of those strings originally
> proposed as “Closed”, but then amended and delegated as “Open” may be
> gleaned from the article on the legal aspects of Closed Generics.
>
> http://ejlt.org/article/view/376/494  and checking that against
> registries which have not yet launched.
>
> In my view, it would be extremely risky for ICANN to develop a new policy
> that allows for Closed Generics in 2022 and then deny the application of
> that policy to applicants from 2012 who have not yet launched their generic
> domains awarded for a ten year contract in 2013, 2014, or whenever.
>    Again, as to Sub Pro, this is simply a matter of identifying this risk
> for GNSO Council.
> Anne
>
> From: Gnso-newgtld-wg <gnso-newgtld-wg-bounces at icann.org> On Behalf Of
> Alexander Schubert
> Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2019 3:51 AM
> To: gnso-newgtld-wg at icann.org
> Subject: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg] Closed Generics and the 2012 Round
>
> [EXTERNAL]
> Anne,
>
> The list that we received last time was without comments. So I took the
> liberty of compiling from the Applicant Status webpage (using the filters)
> a list of strings that might occur in “staff’s list” – and make remarks!
> Please: if any entry is incorrect, or entries are missing: correct it.
>
> But after I have concluded my little research it seems that the ONLY 3
> strings that aren’t either withdrawn, ineligible, denied (e.g. corp, mail,
> home) are these three:
>
> ·         Hotel (won CPE and is held up by contenders)
> ·         Web (VeriSign won the auction for an applicant, and that doesn’t
> sit well with others: still fighting over the issue!)
> ·         Webs (don’t “get it”: web.com won a string similarity
> objection, but it says in the online tool that it is “in contracting”?)
>
> All other strings are either available again (.thai, .ram, .halal, etc;
> for those who love to burn their fingers: go for it!) or “banned” (.mail,
> .corp) or in contracting.
>
> .hotel is a community application available for community members only.
> Trust me: they will NOT want to revert to “closed registry”. VeriSign will
> NOT have shelled out a Gazillion Dollars in order to revert to a “closed
> string”. So in regard to “pending strings from 2012”: I don’t see that any
> of the 3 wants to change to a closed string. Unless of course I have missed
> strings in my research. So my “gut feeling” of “less than 5” wasn’t THAT
> bad after all: 3 strings that potentially might be still “in the work” by
> the next round; and only these 3 COULD in theory try to “profit” from the
> new AGB. Those who are in contracting CAN’T – because the AGB is only
> finalized in a year – and they are NOW in contracting.
>
> Here the research result (please do not rely on it; it was a 5 min
> research):
>
> Availability
> String
> Applicant
> Background
> Soon delegated
> MERCK
> Merck Registry Holdings, Inc.
> In ICANN auction in October
> Soon delegated
> AMAZON
> Amazon EU S.à r.l.
> Seemingly won the TLD shortly ago
> Soon delegated
> アマゾン
> Amazon EU S.à r.l.
> "Amazon" in Japanese. Should in theory be solved then, too!
> Soon delegated
> MUSIC
> DotMusic Limited
> Contention solved and right now in  contracting Soon delegated CPA
> American Institute of Certified Public Acc.
> Prevailed and is in Pre-Delegation Testing now Soon delegated SPA Asia
> Spa and Wellness Promotion Council LTD In contracting Accountability
> Mechanism HOTEL  HOTEL Top-Level-Domain S.a.r.l Won CPE; held up by
> contender Accountability Mechanism WEB NU DOT CO LLC Won auction via
> VeriSign; held up by contender ???
> WEBS
> Vistaprint Limited
> Web.com applicant objected and won  string confusion!
> Strangely the application status tool says "in contracting"
> Available again
> THAI
> Better Living Management Company Limited Not approved: Available for
> application!
> Available again
>  PERSIANGULF
> Asia Green IT System   Ltd. Sti.
> GAC Warning - not approved: Available for application!
> Available again
> HALAL
> Asia Green IT System Bilgisayar San. Ltd.
> Religious term - not approved: Available for application!
> Available again
> GCC
> GCCIX WLL
> Opposed by Gulf Coop. Council (GCC): Available for application!
> Available again
> RAM
> FCA US LLC.
> A God in India! Available for application!
> Banned String
> CORP
> Forever Banned; not available for application!
> Banned String
> MAIL
> Forever Banned; not available for application!
> Banned String
> HOME
> Forever Banned; not available for application!
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Alexander
>
>
>
>
> From: Aikman-Scalese, Anne [mailto:AAikman at lrrc.com <AAikman at lrrc.com>]
> Sent: Dienstag, 27. August 2019 00:08
> To: Alexander Schubert <alexander at schubert.berlin>;
> gnso-newgtld-wg at icann.org
> Subject: RE: [Gnso-newgtld-wg] Closed Generics and the 2012 Round
>
> The 2012  list previously provided to us by staff contained far more than
> 5 strings.  I am not sure why I keep having to ask for this list to be
> recirculated.  Steve?  Julie?  Trang?
>
> From: Gnso-newgtld-wg <gnso-newgtld-wg-bounces at icann.org> On Behalf Of
> Alexander Schubert
> Sent: Monday, August 26, 2019 1:52 PM
> To: gnso-newgtld-wg at icann.org
> Subject: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg] Closed Generics and the 2012 Round
>
> [EXTERNAL]
> Hi,
>
> seems there are right now less than 5 strings not completed - and
> presumably these will find completion till the next application round
> starts. IF there should be still a string undelegated: obviously not
> available until withdrawn.
>
> Otherwise I would expect both application rounds to be SEPARATED
> completely:
> No 2012 application can invoke any 2nd round policy elements. They can
> withdraw and apply again of course.
>
> More interesting question: if in a few years the first delegated generic
> keyword based brand TLDs (.smart!) become ten years old; but aren't used:
> we need to determine how to release them back into the pool of available
> strings. Blocking a geo-name or a generic keyword for your "brand" - then
> not even USING IT: how is THAT serving the Internet User? Maybe AtLarge has
> an opinion here? .smart uses TWO domains right now. WOW. They needed to
> block the ENTIRE NAMESPACE; to use TWO domains after +SEVEN years? And two
> domains in use is actually more than average. Most brands don't have ANY
> domain in active use. They clocked up the system - asked for priority
> numbers in the lottery - then never USED their loot?
>
> Unused generic term & geo-name based "brand"-gTLDs (Spec 13) should not be
> eligble for renewal - and need to be made available again. Do we have any
> policy in this regard?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Alexander
>
>
>
> Sent from my Samsung device
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: "Aikman-Scalese, Anne" <AAikman at lrrc.com>
> Date: 8/26/19 22:49 (GMT+02:00)
> To: Jeff Neuman <jeff.neuman at comlaude.com>, gnso-newgtld-wg at icann.org
> Subject: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg] Closed Generics and the 2012 Round
>
> Hi Jeff – Do we have Susan’s draft language on your first point yet?  (You
> may recall that there were even discussions about PROHIBITING new
> applications for the same string as some still pending from 2012 –that was
> not agreed so Susan is working on a statement that 2012 string application
> processing must be complete before any new application for that string
> would be considered.  HOWEVER – again here is the “rub” – When you say 2012
> string applications have to be “completed”, what are you saying about the
> policy that applies to those?    What if the pending strings from 2012
> don’t meet current new gTLD policy but they did not violate that policy as
> of the time of application?  We can only skirt this issue for so long.  Are
> 2012 strings going to be allowed to update to current gTLD policy in order
> to get authorization to proceed or not?  Or are you saying GNSO Council
> will have to launch another PDP for that purpose?
>
> From: Jeff Neuman <jeff.neuman at comlaude.com>
> Sent: Monday, August 26, 2019 12:43 PM
> To: Aikman-Scalese, Anne <AAikman at lrrc.com>; gnso-newgtld-wg at icann.org
> Subject: RE: Closed Generics and the 2012 Round
>
> [EXTERNAL]
> Anne,
>
> Where has it been proposed that applications from 2012 get priority?  I am
> not aware of any recommendation that we have made that gives “priority” to
> any applicants from 2012.  We did recommend that any applications that were
> still outstanding for a string that is applied from in a subsequent round
> be completed.
>
> With respect to Exclusive Generics, the Board resolution on this matter
> stated that any applications that wanted to maintain their “exclusive
> generic” status would be “deferred to the next round of the New gTLD
> Program, subject to rules developed for the next round…”   They did not
> state that any of those applications would get priority.  However, there
> were no applications that were deferred from the last round.
>
> If we did allow some form of Exclusive Generic in the next round, then
> those rules would only apply to new applicants for TLDs.  Discussing what
> happens to TLDs from 2012 that wanted to be Exclusive Generics, but ended
> up opening their TLDs because of the Board Resolution is not within the
> topics contained within our Charter.  So yes if we wanted to discuss that
> issue we would need an amendment to our charter to allow us to tackle that
> subject.  The GNSO could then either grant our request or farm that issue
> out to a separate group.  That is within their discretion.
>
> This is no different than any other changes we recommend where applicants
> from the past round would want the same things.  For example, if we accept
> changes to the code of conduct, the COI, reserved names, agreement, etc.,
> the existing registries would not get the benefit of those changes unless
> the changes go through a PDP that has jurisdiction over those issues.   All
> Applications / TLDs are treated according the to rules for the round in
> which they applied.  This is true regardless of whether they have launched
> yet or not.
>
> I hope this clears things up.
>
>
>
> Jeff Neuman
> Senior Vice President
> Com Laude | Valideus
> D: +1.703.635.7514
> E: jeff.neuman at comlaude.com
>
> From: Aikman-Scalese, Anne <AAikman at lrrc.com>
> Sent: Monday, August 26, 2019 2:55 PM
> To: Jeff Neuman <jeff.neuman at comlaude.com>; gnso-newgtld-wg at icann.org
> Subject: RE: Closed Generics and the 2012 Round
>
> Thanks Jeff.  Your reasoning below is not consistent with what has been
> proposed in relation to giving priority to applications from the 2012 round
> that have not been withdrawn.  (How is it that this “priority” is in scope
> for our WG but nothing else re 2012 applicants is in scope?   AND if I
> applied for a Closed Generic and didn’t get it in 2012, why should I have
> to require another PDP authorization from GNSO Council in order to be
> treated similarly to new applicants and convert to a Closed Generic?  (I
> believe some open registries that won contention sets in 2012 may not have
> not have actually launched yet.  Why would we say that whether or not they
> can launch as a Closed Generic is up to GNSO Council?)
> Thank you,
> Anne
>
>
> From: Gnso-newgtld-wg <gnso-newgtld-wg-bounces at icann.org> On Behalf Of
> Jeff Neuman
> Sent: Monday, August 26, 2019 5:27 AM
> To: Jeff Neuman <jeff.neuman at comlaude.com>; gnso-newgtld-wg at icann.org
> Subject: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg] Closed Generics and the 2012 Round
>
> [EXTERNAL]
> Thanks all.  We have already got a number of people signed up for the
> group.  I expect substantive discussions on this topic to start this week.
> So, it is not too late to join.  But remember that if you join, the
> expectation is that we will attempt to find a compromise solution that we
> all can live with (if possible).
>
> You can view the member list for the small group here:
> https://community.icann.org/display/NGSPP/Members+New+gTLD+%3A+Topic+of+Closed+Generics
>  Please allow a day or two to pass before seeing your name on the list if
> you just volunteered over the weekend or today.
>
> We will not be talking about Closed Generics in our next meeting tomorrow
> (late tonight for some of us).
>
>
> Jeff Neuman
> Senior Vice President
> Com Laude | Valideus
> D: +1.703.635.7514
> E: jeff.neuman at comlaude.com
>
> From: Gnso-newgtld-wg <gnso-newgtld-wg-bounces at icann.org> On Behalf Of
> Jeff Neuman
> Sent: Friday, August 23, 2019 11:01 AM
> To: gnso-newgtld-wg at icann.org
> Subject: [Gnso-newgtld-wg] Closed Generics and the 2012 Round
>
> All,
>
> There has been a lot of discussion in the past 24 hours or so on the
> applicability of our work on the 2012 applications.  Some have expressed
> concerns about the “fairness” of establishing a policy or new procedures
> for subsequent rounds when Closed Generics were not allowed in 2012.
>
> The applicable Board Resolution covering Closed Generics required the 2012
> applicants for Closed Generics to do one of three things.  Applicants could
> have withdrawn their applications completely, signed the then-current
> Registry Agreement which did not allow Closed Generics, or could have
> deferred their applications for consideration in a subsequent round.   As
> we covered on the call on Thursday, all of the applicants chose either to
> convert their applications to open TLDs or withdraw their applications
> completely.  There were NO applicants that elected to defer their
> applications to any future round.
>
> Therefore, although in theory we could have had some issues that we needed
> to address involving applicants in the 2012 round, the reality is that we
> do not have any such issues.  To address the arguments about fairness of
> any new policy recommendations on applicants from the previous round, all
> we can say is that we need to focus on what the right policy should be
> first without the consideration of the fairness or unfairness to previous
> applicants from having different rules.  If we as a group determine that
> the right policy is something other than what happened in 2012, then it
> will by up to the GNSO Council to either set up a new group to deal with
> that issue or to refer the issue to this group at a later date.  But for
> now, as some have stated, that issue is out of scope for our group.
>
> The reality is that there are many things that this group is considering
> which could produce results that may treat new applicants differently than
> previous round applicants.  Some of those changes may be favorable to the
> new applicants and some less favorable.  The same is true with respect to
> previous applicants.  If we did not make any changes to policy or
> implementation for fear of the impact on previous or new applicants, no
> changes would ever be made.  The point is that we need to decide what is
> the right thing to do, point out to the GNSO Council the potential impacts,
> and then leave it to the Council on what the next steps should be.
>
>
>
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