[Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] FW: Draft Grouping of Charter Questions - some edits

Thu Jan 9 03:39:12 UTC 2014

More points for consideration to this thread. Is the issue only responding to LE from outside a jurisdiction, or are there also elements of 1) is that agency really LE and 2) does that external LE agency enforce laws that my society would have anything to do with?

To use an example with respect to 1, over 20,000 criminal LE agencies report to the annual US FBI crime stats. The 20,000 is a baseline for how many US LE agencies exist, as not all criminal LE submits reports and civil agencies such as my alma mater, the US Federal Trade Commission, by definition don’t report crime. Can an entity in another country reasonably be expected to determine the legitimacy of a given “law enforcement agency” under that set of facts or even a similar one on a smaller scale?

I can see arguments against some of what I wrote but the situation may not be as simple as whether or not to observe notices from LE in another country.

Don

From: Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>>
Date: Wednesday, January 8, 2014 at 9:46 AM
To: "Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria" <GCAMPILLOS at minetur.es<mailto:GCAMPILLOS at minetur.es>>, PPSAI <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] FW: Draft Grouping of Charter Questions - some edits

Hi Gema,

I am not saying providers should refuse to respond to such requests, but they should rather treat them as any other third-party request without legal authority, since that is what they are. I am sorry if that was unclear from my earlier statement. But yes, foreign law enforcement has no legal authority abroad. None whatsoever...

For proper handling, law enforcement has options however, such as cooperating with or working through local law enforcement and we as registrar regularly receive such inquiries from our local law enforcement where they are helping foreign agencies. As registrar, we always advise foreign law enforcement to work through the proper channels instead of trying to overreach their authority.

Finally, where does one draw the line? Are providers expected to listen to US law enforcement even if not based in the US? How about Saudi LEAs? Or Syrian, Iranian, etc? Simply extending legal authority to foreign authorities without a legal basis is not acceptable either.

There is a reason why there are national boundaries for law enforcement. Sovereign nations have jointly decided this is the way to go and unless they develop international treaties that change that, we should not try to develop new super-national authority for foreign law enforcement agencies.

Volker

Dear Volker,

Your comments have prompted me to step in your conversation with John Horton.

By sternly refusing to respond to foreign law enforcement authorities´ requests, p/p services blatantly disregard the fact that their services are used by foreign individuals, organizations and companies, not the least because they promote their services abroad. In its self-regulation industry represented at ICANN must pay heed to this conspicuous fact and react to it. Simply denying any legitimacy to foreign authorities is not acceptable.

As for other Internet services, I invite you to have a look at the Transparency Report Google releases every six months. It´s an example of an Internet service provider who voluntarily attends to requests issued worldwide. Many hosting providers also respond our requests when we ask them to provide contact data of their customers.  Once, I advised the group to visit www.internetjurisdiction.net/<http://www.internetjurisdiction.net/>. They are trying to work out avenues to solve jurisdiction problems through soft law. Efforts like this should be supported and tested, for instance, as regards p/p services.

Best regards,

Gema Campillos Glez

De: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] En nombre de Volker Greimann
Enviado el: miércoles, 08 de enero de 2014 13:23
Para: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>
Asunto: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] FW: Draft Grouping of Charter Questions - some edits

Hi all,

to respond to John's comments:

  *   When an allegation of illegal activity is submitted to the p/p service provider, it is important to understand that it may be coming from a victim of the crime.
When an allegation of illegal activity is submitted, it is important to understand that it may be coming from someone who merely claims to vbe a victim of a crime, but is in fact not. The purposes for which someone may want to see the underlying registrant data are multifold and many of them are with the intent to later harass the privacy service user, or worse. We must remember in such cases that there may be a very good reason why the registrant has opted for whois privacy. It may therefore be essential for the registrant to know who has inquired to have messages relayed or to have the private data revealed to be able to help the p/p service provider better understand the situation. While I understand there may be cases where a complainant may also have an interest in keeping his identity hidden, he can avail himself of a multitude of methods to ensure this prior to launching the complaint. I do not see this question as actually necessary.

  *   Similarly, I proposed an additional question regarding whether, if disclosure to the registrant is not required, it should be permitted even if law enforcement explains that it will jeopardize an investigation. The rationale for this is simply that in many cases -- in the offline world, as the online world -- disclosing this information puts a legitimate investigation at risk.
Agreed, but not all law enforcement is created equal. Basically, I would hold that the p/p operator is unable to determine if an investigation is legitimate or not. Therefore, the only law enforcement that should receive special priviledges should be the law enforcement of the country where the p/p service is based or operates from.

No such privileges should be extended to private organizations, no matter how well intentioned unless they are specially authorized be the laws of the country of the p/p operator.

  *   The proposed questions pertaining to jurisdiction are based on the problem I identified (and Gema did, as well) in our earlier emails. I do feel that the way I've written the questions can be clarified and improved, so I welcome anyone who would like to give that a shot.
  *   Similarly, we propose a question that relates to the other business interests controlled by or affiliated with the p/p service. To explain this, we have sometimes seen that the criminal organization "is" the privacy/proxy service. (Currently, of course, there is no accreditation scheme, but the fact remains that is what we see, and I am happy to provide examples if need be.) To be very specific, we know of circumstances where a rogue Internet pharmacy network operates its own "proxy" service, or alternatively, the proxy service -- that is, the individuals who operate it -- also operates as affiliate marketers for rogue networks, using their own privacy/proxy service primarily for their own illegal purposes.
Under an accreditation scheme, if actual collusion can be proven, that should probably be a reason to pull the accreditation of the service.
Finally, although I unfortunately had to miss the call this morning, I believe that some of the comments may have argued that registrars (or, ICANN) should not have to address criminal jurisdictional issues (that is, multi-jurisdictional complexities). I'd note that banks, credit card networks and search engine ad programs regularly have to address precisely the same multi-jurisdictional questions relating to criminal activity on their platform and do not simply leave it to law enforcement. I would argue that there is no reason to consider registrars a special case that are for some reason exempt from having to address the same issues that companies in the financial and advertising sectors have had to address, and have by and large done so quite competently. I am confident that the registrar community can competently do the same.

John, please note that registrars are not (and are nothing like) banks or credit card networks, which are highly regulated by national laws. And even banks take action only based upon legal requirements, law enforcement requests or court orders. To demand any more for less regulated private companies is frankly ridiculous.

Your new questions as to related to asking them about applicability of foreign law enforcement requests sound like an unrealistic wish list at best. Providers bowing to every whim of foreign law enforcement or organizations without actual legal authority would expose themsemselves to severe legal liability.

Best,

Volker

Thank you for the opportunity to provide this input, and I welcome any suggestions as to how our suggestions can be improved or refined.

John Horton
President, LegitScript
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FollowLegitScript: LinkedIn<http://www.linkedin.com/company/legitscript-com>  |  Facebook<https://www.facebook.com/LegitScript>  |  Twitter<https://twitter.com/legitscript>  |  YouTube<https://www.youtube.com/user/LegitScript>  |  Blog<http://blog.legitscript.com>  |  Google+<https://plus.google.com/112436813474708014933/posts>

On Tue, Jan 7, 2014 at 7:44 AM, Marika Konings <marika.konings at icann.org<mailto:marika.konings at icann.org>> wrote:

From: Kathy Kleiman <kathy at kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy at kathykleiman.com>>
Date: Tuesday 7 January 2014 16:38
To: Marika Konings <marika.konings at icann.org<mailto:marika.konings at icann.org>>
Subject: Fwd: Draft Grouping of Charter Questions - some edits

Hi Marika, could you post this to our working group?

-------- Original Message --------
Subject:

Draft Grouping of Charter Questions - some edits

Date:

Tue, 07 Jan 2014 10:35:02 -0500

From:

Kathy Kleiman <kathy at kathykleiman.com><mailto:kathy at kathykleiman.com>

To:

gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>

Hi All,
Hopefully you have seen the proposed edits I just to the SG-C Input Template (I haven't seen them posted).

Attached here are some inputs to the Draft Grouping of Charter Questions - with an organizational-type perspective being added. The world is really not just commercial/individual, but truly one of commercial, noncommercial and individual (as ICANN has organized its non-contracted parties).

For a religious group, political group, hobby group, dissident group may be organized as a limited liability company to protect the members in case someone falls in the building, but that does not nullify the fact that the group is engaged primarily and fully in noncommercial speech (as the wide array of members of NCSG show).

Again edits highlighted and hopefully visible. I would like to see much more discussion on this issue in our next meeting and over the list.
Best,
Kathy

:
I will miss the first 30 minutes due to another obligation, but will join as soon as I can.

From: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Marika Konings
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2014 4:30 AM
To: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>
Subject: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Proposed Agenda - PPSAI PDP WG Meeting

Dear All,

Please find below the proposed agenda for the next PPSAI PDP WG meeting (Tuesday 7 January at 15.00 UTC).

Best regards,

Marika

Proposed Agenda – PPSAI PDP WG Meeting – 7 January 2013
1.       Roll Call / SOI
2.       Review & finalise SG/C Template (see revised version attached)
3.       Review & finalise SO/AC Outreach Letter (see revised version attached)
4.       Input to EWG Survey (see attached)
5.       Update on WG members survey (to participate, please go to https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/86N33WX)
6.       Review proposed charter question groupings (see latest version attached)
7.       Next steps & confirm next meeting

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Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

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- Rechtsabteilung -

Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
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Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
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Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net>www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com>

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Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.

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Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Best regards,

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Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
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