[Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Carlton's closing chat question
Volker Greimann
vgreimann at key-systems.net
Mon Jan 20 16:45:29 UTC 2014
No identities of criminals are effectively protected by privacy
services, provided they are required to reveal such identities to law
enforcement of appropriate jurisdiction.
Private individuals, vigilantes or other interested parties on the other
hand have no real legitimate interest to receive data on alleged
criminals data unless they want to take matters best left to LEAs into
their own hands.
There is a reason why even criminals have the right to privacy and not
to have their full names and likenesses published. Heck, in Japan, TV
stations even mosaic handcuffs of suspects.
Volker
>
>
> Hi Tim,
>
> The harm is protecting the identities of criminnals. And I consider
> undermining whois a harm, as well
>
> --bob
>
>
> On Mon, 20 Jan 2014, Tim Ruiz wrote:
>
>> What are the problems commercial entities that use p/p have caused?
>>
>>> On Jan 20, 2014, at 8:11 AM, "Bob Bruen" <bruen at coldrain.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Volker,
>>>
>>> I was merely responding to Stephanie's comments about the
>>> difficulties, not advocating a position.
>>>
>>> However, as you are aware, I do advocate barring commercial entities
>>> from using p/p, because the use has already caused harm and we
>>> should fix that. The providers created the problem in the first
>>> place, so allowing them to continue to control it simply continues
>>> the problem.
>>>
>>> The discussion of all this is the point of this group (and other
>>> groups).
>>>
>>> --bob
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 20 Jan 2014, Volker Greimann wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I agree that it would be possible to bar commercial entities from
>>>> using p/p services, however I am not sure it is the
>>>> sensible thing to do. Certainly, there is abuse, but by creating a
>>>> blanket prohibition, i fear more damage will be done to
>>>> legitimate interests than good is done to illegitimate ones.
>>>> In the end it should be up to the provider which categories of
>>>> clients it accepts.
>>>> Volker
>>>> Am 20.01.2014 02:08, schrieb Bob Bruen:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Stephanie,
>>>>
>>>> It is entirely possible to decide to bar commercial entities,
>>>> create a definition of "comercial entities" and
>>>> then deal with those which appear to problematical.
>>>>
>>>> The fraudsters probably will not be a set up as a legitimate
>>>> bussiness, but their sites can be identified as
>>>> spam, malware, etc types and thus taking money, therefore a
>>>> business. I am sure there are other methods to deal
>>>> with problem domain names.
>>>>
>>>> In general, exceptions or problems should not derail a process.
>>>>
>>>> --bob
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, 19 Jan 2014, Stephanie Perrin wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I dont want to keep beating a dead horse here....but if
>>>> there is a resounding
>>>> response of "yes indeed, bar commercial entities from
>>>> using P/P services", then
>>>> how are you going to propose that p/p proxy service
>>>> providers determine who is a
>>>> commercial entity, particularly in jurisdictions which
>>>> have declined to regulate
>>>> the provision of goods and services over the Internet?
>>>> I don't like asking
>>>> questions that walk us into corners we cannot get out
>>>> of. Do the fraudsters we
>>>> are worried about actually apply for business numbers
>>>> and articles of
>>>> incorporation in the jurisdictions in which they
>>>> operate? I operate in a
>>>> jurisdiction where this distinction is often extremely
>>>> difficult to make. THe
>>>> determination would depend on the precise use being made
>>>> of the domain
>>>> name....which gets ICANN squarely into content analysis,
>>>> and which can hardly be
>>>> done for new registrations, even if t were within
>>>> ICANN's remit. I am honestly
>>>> not trying to be difficult, but I just have not heard a
>>>> good answer to this
>>>> problem.
>>>> Stephanie Perrin
>>>> On 2014-01-19, at 4:38 PM, Holly Raiche wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Jin and all
>>>> I agree with Jim here (and Don earlier). The important
>>>> task here is
>>>> agreeing on the questions to be asked of the SO/ACs. So
>>>> we need to get
>>>> back to framing the questions - not answering them,
>>>> however tempting that
>>>> may be.
>>>>
>>>> So the question of whether 'commercial entities' should
>>>> be barred is still
>>>> a useful question to ask. The next question would be
>>>> whether there are
>>>> possible distinctions that should be drawn between an
>>>> entity that can use
>>>> the service and one that can't and, if so, where is the
>>>> line drawn. I agree
>>>> with the discussion on how difficult that will be
>>>> because many entities
>>>> that have corporate status also have reasonable grounds
>>>> for wanting the
>>>> protection of such a service (human rights organisations
>>>> or women's refuges
>>>> come to mind). But that is the sort of response we are
>>>> seeking from
>>>> others outside of this group - so let's not prejudge
>>>> answers. Let's only
>>>> frame the questions that will help us come to some
>>>> sensible answers.
>>>> Otherwise, we'll never get to the next steps.
>>>>
>>>> And my apologies for the next meeting. I have a long
>>>> day ahead on
>>>> Wednesday (Sydney time) and taking calls at 2.00am won't
>>>> help. So Ill read
>>>> the transcript and be back in a fortnight (2 weeks for
>>>> those who do not use
>>>> the term)
>>>>
>>>> Holly
>>>>
>>>> On 16/01/2014, at 5:39 AM, Jim Bikoff wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Don and all,
>>>>
>>>> As we suggested earlier, and discussed in the last Group
>>>> teleconference, it might be helpful, as a next step, if
>>>> we reached a
>>>> consensus on the groups of questions before sending them
>>>> out to
>>>> SO/ACs and SG/Cs.
>>>>
>>>> This would involve two steps: First, agreeing on the
>>>> name of each
>>>> group; and second, streamlining the questions in each
>>>> group.
>>>>
>>>> In the first step, we could consider alternative
>>>> headings (perhaps
>>>> REGISTRATION instead of MAINTENANCE).
>>>>
>>>> And in the second step, we could remove duplicative or
>>>> vague
>>>> questions.
>>>>
>>>> This crystallization would make the questions more
>>>> approachable, and
>>>> encourage better responses.
>>>>
>>>> I hope these ideas are helpful.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Jim
>>>>
>>>> James L. Bikoff
>>>> Silverberg, Goldman & Bikoff, LLP
>>>> 1101 30th Street, NW
>>>> Suite 120
>>>> Washington, DC 20007
>>>> Tel: 202-944-3303
>>>> Fax: 202-944-3306
>>>> jbikoff at sgbdc.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Don Blumenthal <dblumenthal at pir.org>
>>>> Date: January 14, 2014 11:09:23 AM EST
>>>> To: PPSAI <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>> Subject: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Carlton's closing chat
>>>> question
>>>> Carlton posted an issue that shouldn't wait a week:
>>>>
>>>> "John came up with 4 groups. Do we have a notion that
>>>> others
>>>> might be extracted? And where do we include/modify
>>>> questions
>>>> to address Stephanie's issue?"
>>>>
>>>> Jim had four groups and an umbrella Main category, which
>>>> may be
>>>> instructive in itself in guiding how we proceed
>>>> organizationally. Regardless, the consensus of
>>>> commenters has
>>>> been that his document is a significant improvement over
>>>> where
>>>> we were before, and I suggest that we use it as a baseline.
>>>> However, we still have work to do on it. Feel free to
>>>> suggest
>>>> modifications.
>>>>
>>>> Don
>>>>
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>>>
>>> --
>>> Dr. Robert Bruen
>>> Cold Rain Labs
>>> http://coldrain.net/bruen
>>> +1.802.579.6288
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>
>
>
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--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
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