[Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach

Mon Oct 27 16:08:47 UTC 2014

Ok,  then I suggest we ask Sojera Nas.  She works at the Dutch Data 
Protection authority, is their internet expert, and she spoke on the 
panel that Michele and I participated on at IGF.  She supported 
Kohnstamm when he was head of the Article 29 working group, and is 
familiar with the letters that have been written to ICANN from that group.
s.nas at cbpweb.nl
Cheers Steph
PS I can respond to your questions re collection instrument and data 
controllership, but would prefer to talk rather than type.  Might take a 
while....
On 2014-10-27, 10:23, Don Blumenthal wrote:
> Stephanie,
>
> First, I'm concerned that recent references to the 2013 RAA have started to skew our discussions generally. This WG is the result of that document but the interests represented on it are much broader.
>
> To your note, I don't follow the points about collection instrument or data controllership. As for accreditation being compliance with a law enforcement request, that's true only in a very narrow sense. Our work may be the result of RAA negotiations with LE but the concept of vetting p/p providers has been out there and supported by a broader set of interests since long before 2012.
>
> At the risk of being corrected by James and Volker, data protection laws, policies, and best practices weren't considered in any depth during RAA negotiations. The agreement called for the creation of this group precisely so that we could explore those questions and others adequately. If the WG wants a discussion led by DPA experts, we need to do it soon so that we include their viewpoints as part of establishing the initial set of preliminary conclusions that we will review before starting to write. The alternatives are late input that we are not offering to others, which I don't think is acceptable, or waiting until the public comment period after posting our draft report.
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Stephanie Perrin
> Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 12:00 PM
> To: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org
> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
>
> 1.  Totally agree with this statement.
> 2.  If we attempt to engage with data protection authorities, they will look for the collection instrument and the elements of data controllership, which IMHO stem from the RAA.  If the purpose of accreditation is to comply with a law enforcement request, that is an important factor in their evaluation also.
> 3.  At the data protection/privacy panel we held in Istanbul at the IGF, Dick Leaning admitted that they had only asked for things, it was up to ICANN to decide whether or not to agree with the request. Unfortunately, IMHO, that decision was made without taking advice on data protection law, policy, and best practice.  Not to mention constitutional protections in many states.
> I would suggest we not reach out to data protection authorities until we get this debate well sorted, ICANN cannot afford to lose credibility in public policy matters at this precise moment in time.  NCSG has several candidates to suggest when that time comes...
> cheers
> Stephanie Perrin
> On 2014-10-22, 11:04, Luc SEUFER wrote:
>> I know the charter of this working group has been drafted, approved etc.
>>
>> But if we can just take a step back and remember that this accreditation program directly stems from a recommendation made by LEAs within the scope of the 2013 RAA negotiations.
>>
>> https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/raa-law-enforcement-recomm
>> endations-01mar12-en.pdf
>>
>> I trust asking them about the effectiveness of the other already implemented recommandations is in the remit of this WG. Developing policies without looking at their consequences doesn't seem wise to me.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Luc
>>
>>
>> On 22 Oct 2014, at 16:56, Don Blumenthal <dblumenthal at pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal at pir.org>> wrote:
>>
>> James,.
>>
>> Laws and jurisdiction have nothing to do with it. LE simply may have different viewpoints on issues from what we have heard.
>>
>> Example: It was my impression on the last call (next to last?) that the group was tending toward "requestors must ask for relay before requesting reveal." From experience, I don't think that will work so well when the requestor is, for example, LE or a private anti-abuse group.
>>
>> Don
>>
>> From: James M. Bladel [mailto:jbladel at godaddy.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:44 AM
>> To: Don Blumenthal;
>> gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
>>
>> Don:
>>
>> Even if they raise new issues or rationales..then what?  Sorry to be so blunt, but nothing we include as consensus policy or an accreditation requirement will trump the laws applicable to the P/P service.  And it only takes us down the twisty path of jurisdictions..
>>
>> Just not sure if there is any ultimate value of this effort.
>>
>> Thanks-
>>
>> J.
>>
>>
>> From: Don Blumenthal <dblumenthal at pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal at pir.org>>
>> Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 at 9:38
>> To: James Bladel <jbladel at godaddy.com<mailto:jbladel at godaddy.com>>,
>> PPSAI WG
>> <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
>> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
>>
>> James,
>>
>> I am not sure what we will gain from LE or DPA sessions. However, the idea has floated a few times since we started work, and it was expressed again during the last call. I don't see either session as defining new privileges or protections, unless they raise issues or add rationales that we have not considered.
>>
>> Don
>>
>> From: James M. Bladel [mailto:jbladel at godaddy.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:30 AM
>> To: Metalitz, Steven; Don Blumenthal; Volker Greimann;
>> gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
>>
>> I am now convinced that the entire LEA issue is a morass w.r.t this PDP.
>>
>> In a nutshell, the 2013 RAA requires Registrars to maintain a responsive (24/7) point of contact with their local law enforcement, and to investigate complaints of illegal activities, and take the appropriate action.  It goes without saying that Registrars will also cooperate with court orders, warrants, etc.
>>
>> Trying to use this PDP to construct additional LEA privileges (or define additional protections for P/P customers) is, IMO, out of scope and meaningless anyway.  Recommend we model any P/P obligations after those in the RAA and move on.  I question what will be gained from LEA outreach.
>>
>> Thanks-
>>
>> J.
>>
>>
>>
>> From: <Metalitz>, Steven <met at msk.com<mailto:met at msk.com>>
>> Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 at 9:15
>> To: 'Don Blumenthal'
>> <dblumenthal at pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal at pir.org>>, Volker Greimann
>> <vgreimann at key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>>, PPSAI
>> WG <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>>
>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
>>
>> While I understand that some WG members are eager to have a conversation with law enforcement about the 2013 RAA, I question whether that is in scope for our working group.
>>
>> From:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-boun
>> ces at icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf
>> Of Don Blumenthal
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:11 AM
>> To: Volker Greimann;
>> gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
>>
>> Volker,
>>
>> I understand the concern. It's been raised on calls and in other places for good reason. We will ask for stats as part of what we would like to hear from LE.
>>
>> Don
>>
>>
>> From:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-boun
>> ces at icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf
>> Of Volker Greimann
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 4:35 AM
>> To: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
>>
>> Hi Don,
>>
>> one thing I would like to ask is that before we invite Law Enforcement to present their list of asks (because that is what it will turn out to be once they are here), we should request that they also present some evidence of how better contactability since the changes in the RAA has improved their ability to catch the bad guys.
>> LEAs are always good at asking for more, but not as good at justifying their requests with concrete facts.
>>
>> Volker
>> Am 21.10.2014 18:53, schrieb Don Blumenthal:
>> Hello,
>>
>> The chairs group met this morning while sparing the rest of you. We will send more about we talked about and thoughts about how we'll move from here later in the week after some drafting.
>>
>> In the meantime, some WG members have suggested SME style briefings from the law enforcement community and data protection authorities, and it's time to schedule them. The idea is for individuals or groups to look at what we have produced and comment based on their perspectives. General discussions of p/p won't be neary has helpful.
>>
>> We have a good set of contacts in LE because it has a presence at ICANN and Dick Leaming from Interpol told me a few times in LA that he will join. Suggestions still are welcome for because the ICANN regulars are self-selected, and partly on the basis of who can afford to come. That's not necessarily the best way to get a cross section of the community.
>>
>> On the other hand, we are starting almost from zero on DPA. I have a friend and long ago FTC colleague who works on privacy and security matters at the OECD as a possible starting point but we need more thoughts.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Don
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>> --
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>>
>>
>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
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