[Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Revised Reveal Doc

Mon Mar 23 23:38:50 UTC 2015

While I certainly welcome Johns participation as a working group member, I want to be sure that we won't be wasting time discussing anecdotal evidence, which may or may not be representative of the situation at hand. As I (and others) have said on multiple calls, let's not get distracted with case-by-case examples which (may) represent minority situations.

Also, if we invite in a subject mater expert to give his examples, are we then allowed to bring in our examples and have them given the same consideration and weight? I can see this devolving into a "this happened to me" "this happened to me" mess.

K

Kiran Malancharuvil
Internet Policy Counselor
MarkMonitor
415-419-9138 (m)

Sent from my mobile, please excuse any typos.

On Mar 23, 2015, at 4:29 PM, Mary Wong <mary.wong at icann.org<mailto:mary.wong at icann.org>> wrote:

Hello - I meant to send the follow up message below to everyone, thanks!

From: Mary Wong <mary.wong at icann.org<mailto:mary.wong at icann.org>>
Date: Monday, March 23, 2015 at 19:26
To: Stephanie Perrin <stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca<mailto:stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca>>
Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Revised Reveal Doc

Hi Stephanie and everyone,

Others with more experience may be able to shed more light on the intent and history behind this provision in the WG Guidelines, but FWIW I believe the cost issue relates to the WG making a more formal request to the GNSO Council, to get an educational briefing or similar advice, e.g. from a subject matter expert or consultant. This could involve technical, legal or other specialty knowledge for which a paid opinion may be appropriate. However, the provision also permits a WG to seek input from “self formed groups and/or individuals” on a more informal basis, so my assumption is that the Guidelines provide a WG with the flexibility to consider which course of action would be the more efficacious and appropriate for its purpose.

Cheers
Mary

Mary Wong
Senior Policy Director
Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
Telephone: +1 603 574 4892
Email: mary.wong at icann.org<mailto:mary.wong at icann.org>

From: Stephanie Perrin <stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca<mailto:stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca>>
Date: Monday, March 23, 2015 at 19:16
To: Mary Wong <mary.wong at icann.org<mailto:mary.wong at icann.org>>
Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Revised Reveal Doc

THanks Mary, very helpful.  Since there is no cost, my question would be, why not?
cheers Stephanie

On 2015-03-23 19:11, Mary Wong wrote:

Hello everyone, to follow up on Graeme¹s message, please note that Section
4.4 of the GNSO¹s Working Group Guidelines contains the following
language:

"If the WG determines that it needs additional educational briefings
occurring upfront or as issues emerge during deliberations, it should
identify its specific requests to the [Chartering Organization] including
subject matter(s), type(s) of expertise, objectives, and costs. If
additional costs are involved, prior approval must be obtained from the
[Chartering Organization]. Additionally, a WG may, at any stage throughout
its deliberations, decide to seek input from self formed groups and/or
individuals with the aim of further informing WG members about matters
that fall within the remit of the WG and which are of interest to the
ICANN community."

We hope this is helpful.

Cheers
Mary

Mary Wong
Senior Policy Director
Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)
Telephone: +1 603 574 4892
Email: mary.wong at icann.org<mailto:mary.wong at icann.org>

-----Original Message-----
From: Graeme Bunton <gbunton at tucows.com><mailto:gbunton at tucows.com>
Date: Monday, March 23, 2015 at 18:44
To: Kathy Kleiman <kathy at kathykleiman.com><mailto:kathy at kathykleiman.com>, "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org"<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org><gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org><mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>, "Metalitz, Steven" <met at msk.com><mailto:met at msk.com>
Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Revised Reveal Doc

Hi Kathy,

Thanks for the suggestion. There's little doubt that John would have
some interesting, and hopefully illuminating experience in this area.
However, I think we're too close to tomorrow's call to have him join us.

I'd like to suggest that after tomorrow's call we can take stock of
where we're at, and decide if John can help us with his insight. Once
there, we can then extend an invitation or not as the case may be.

Thanks

Graeme

On 3/23/2015 6:14 PM, Kathy Kleiman wrote:

I forgot to add that John Berryhill would like to join us tomorrow. He
can speak from very direct experience to the difference between
working with "agents" of a copyright and trademark owner, or the
trademark/copyright owners and attorney directly. I think it will be
valuable insight - and inform our important discussion!

Best,
Kathy

:

Hi Kiran,
Thank you for your comments. The agency issue worries some of us
greatly.  By what authority is the "agency" established; what actual
knowledge of the a) trademark or copyright owner's rights are there,
b) by what expertise can he/she make an assessment of infringement
and c) by what right, ability or authority can the signatory bind the
trademark or copyright owner to the allegations being made.

I should note that the proposed changes follow the DMCA: for a Reveal
Subpoena, the request must be done by an attorney for the Requester
or by the Requester himself/herself/itself (in the US we call it "pro
se").

Best,
Kathy
:

Hi Kathy,

Thanks for forwarding this to the group, and special thanks for
forwarding with enough time to review before the call!

We can certainly discuss in more depth on the call tomorrow, but I
am not a fan of the changes in Section II.  I'm concerned about the
level of minutiae in the language, and I'm wondering how and why
that level of micromanagement will be helpful/probative information
to the Service Provider.  In very large companies, the trademark
owner/president/VP/partner, etc. isn't actually involved directly in
the enforcement activity. It should be enough to demonstrate agency,
as the previous language did.

Perhaps I will have more later, but I wanted to float that to the
group before the call.

Thanks,

Kiran

Kiran Malancharuvil
Policy Counselor
MarkMonitor
415.222.8318 (t)
415.419.9138 (m)
www.markmonitor.com<http://www.markmonitor.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>
[mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy
Kleiman
Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2015 11:19 AM
To: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>; Metalitz, Steven; Graeme Bunton
Subject: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Revised Reveal Doc

Hi All,
Steve and I talked on Friday, and he asked me to circulate a Revised
Reveal document -- which is attached.  This document has three types
of changes based on our discussion last Tuesday and subsequent
research:

1. To the title (reset pending further discussion) 2. To Section II,
the Request Templates to clarify the requester and his/her direct
knowledge of the alleged infringement and legal authority to
represent the Requester, and 3. Annex (reset to original pending
discussion with drafters over the narrow goals and intents of this
section)

All other edits remain - to continue our excellent discussion of
high standards for disclosure, human rights issues, etc. There is
also much to discuss regarding follow-up processes (after the
Request) including
a) when are appeals allowed and for whom, and b) how does a Provider
challenge an alleged "wrongful disclosure" of its Customer's
information?

Best and have a good rest of weekend,
Kathy

--
_________________________
Graeme Bunton
Manager, Management Information Systems
Manager, Public Policy
Tucows Inc.
PH: 416 535 0123 ext 1634

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