[Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Revised Reveal Doc

Thu Mar 26 19:30:55 UTC 2015

Kathy, 

There is a clear difference between making the legal assessment and
submitting a report and request about that assessment.

Also I do not think you have to be a US lawyer to make that assessment.
Verifying attorneys/lawyers globally is a challenge.  We ran into this
problem with the Extended Validated Cert process in which they required a
lawyer opinion letter.  Part of the protocol required that the cert
authority independently verified the lawyer’s status that signed the
letter.  The lawyer also had to reside in the country of the entity owning
the domain name.  Our in house counsel in Singapore was not registered in
the Singapore equivalent to the bar. Only law firm attorneys are included
in the database.  So verifying that the individual making the request is a
qualified lawyer (what is the definition you would propose to use?)  is
extremely time consuming and difficult globally.

Also to repeat my concern I made earlier if you are setting the bar this
high for a simple request then the vendor’s would need to set the bar on
their side that anyone reviewing the requests are also qualified lawyer.
Seems like this would make a very simple process that much more complex
and costly.  

Susan Kawaguchi
Domain Name Manager
Facebook Legal Dept.

Phone - 650 485-6064

On 3/24/15, 8:04 AM, "Kathy Kleiman" <kathy at kathykleiman.com> wrote:

>"authorized representative" is not necessarily the agency we might need
>- and in this case, the agent is the one submitting the legal assessment
>of infringement. That's a legal assessment - and the signatory should be
>legally able to make it.
>
>Best,
>Kathy
>:
>> Volker,
>>
>> That is what agency is.
>>
>> Kiran
>>
>> Kiran Malancharuvil
>> Internet Policy Counselor
>> MarkMonitor
>> 415-419-9138 (m)
>>
>> Sent from my mobile, please excuse any typos.
>>
>> On Mar 24, 2015, at 7:59 AM, Volker Greimann
>><vgreimann at key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>> wrote:
>>
>> In the end, it should be someone who has the legal power within his
>>organization to bind the organization to agree to the legal consequences
>>a false request might entail and who would be able to follow up on
>>inquiries directly.
>>
>> We do not want to see a second understudy of the help desk staffer to
>>send in requests. OTOH, I could live with a statement that the request
>>has been authorized by such a person and the requestor would have to
>>clearly delineate his position and authority within the organization. So
>>in your case, this could be a brief statement from yourself.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Volker
>>
>> Am 24.03.2015 um 00:40 schrieb Susan Kawaguchi:
>>
>> Hi Kathy,
>>
>> I am not comfortable with this language.  I can¹t even imagine asking a
>> VP, General Partner or Principal to make this request.   I am not an
>> attorney so it would leave me out of the process completely and I
>> understand the current process.  This is to limiting and as most
>>companies
>> do we rely on third parties to assist in the enforcement which doesn¹t
>> always include attorneys.  But they rely on clear instructions from the
>> trademark owner to make a claim.  Looking forward to the robust
>>discussion
>> tomorrow.
>>
>> Signatory¹s name and legal relationship to the trademark
>> owner. Signatories shall be limited to those with ³first-hand² knowledge
>> of the
>> alleged infringement: ³Owner² (if trademark owned by individual),
>> ³President,²
>> ³Vice President,² ³General Partner² or ³Principal² (if trademark owned
>>by
>> legal
>> entity)  or ³Attorney² with country and
>> state/provice/region of attorney¹s bar membership (if legal
>>representative
>> appointed by trademark owner)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Susan Kawaguchi
>> Domain Name Manager
>> Facebook Legal Dept.
>>
>> Phone - 650 485-6064
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3/23/15, 3:08 PM, "Kathy Kleiman"
>><kathy at kathykleiman.com><mailto:kathy at kathykleiman.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Kiran,
>> Thank you for your comments. The agency issue worries some of us
>> greatly.  By what authority is the "agency" established; what actual
>> knowledge of the a) trademark or copyright owner's rights are there, b)
>> by what expertise can he/she make an assessment of infringement and c)
>> by what right, ability or authority can the signatory bind the trademark
>> or copyright owner to the allegations being made.
>>
>> I should note that the proposed changes follow the DMCA: for a Reveal
>> Subpoena, the request must be done by an attorney for the Requester or
>> by the Requester himself/herself/itself (in the US we call it "pro se").
>>
>> Best,
>> Kathy
>> :
>>
>>
>> Hi Kathy,
>>
>> Thanks for forwarding this to the group, and special thanks for
>> forwarding with enough time to review before the call!
>>
>> We can certainly discuss in more depth on the call tomorrow, but I am
>> not a fan of the changes in Section II.  I'm concerned about the level
>> of minutiae in the language, and I'm wondering how and why that level of
>> micromanagement will be helpful/probative information to the Service
>> Provider.  In very large companies, the trademark
>> owner/president/VP/partner, etc. isn't actually involved directly in the
>> enforcement activity.  It should be enough to demonstrate agency, as the
>> previous language did.
>>
>> Perhaps I will have more later, but I wanted to float that to the group
>> before the call.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Kiran
>>
>> Kiran Malancharuvil
>> Policy Counselor
>> MarkMonitor
>> 415.222.8318 (t)
>> 415.419.9138 (m)
>> www.markmonitor.com<http://www.markmonitor.com>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: 
>>gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at ican
>>n.org>
>> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman
>> Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2015 11:19 AM
>> To: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg at icann.org>;
>>Metalitz, Steven; Graeme Bunton
>> Subject: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Revised Reveal Doc
>>
>> Hi All,
>> Steve and I talked on Friday, and he asked me to circulate a Revised
>> Reveal document -- which is attached.  This document has three types of
>> changes based on our discussion last Tuesday and subsequent research:
>>
>> 1. To the title (reset pending further discussion) 2. To Section II,
>> the Request Templates to clarify the requester and his/her direct
>> knowledge of the alleged infringement and legal authority to represent
>> the Requester, and 3. Annex (reset to original pending discussion with
>> drafters over the narrow goals and intents of this section)
>>
>> All other edits remain - to continue our excellent discussion of high
>> standards for disclosure, human rights issues, etc. There is also much
>> to discuss regarding follow-up processes (after the Request) including
>> a) when are appeals allowed and for whom, and b) how does a Provider
>> challenge an alleged "wrongful disclosure" of its Customer's
>>information?
>>
>> Best and have a good rest of weekend,
>> Kathy
>>
>>
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>> --
>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>
>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>
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>>
>> Key-Systems GmbH
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