[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Dangers of public whois

Wed Feb 15 15:46:33 UTC 2017

Allison,

I think it would be helpful if you didn’t lump all registrars into the same bucket just because you have had some bad experiences.  That would make it easier for all of us to work collaboratively to find solutions going forward.

Chuck

From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of allison nixon
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 10:30 AM
To: Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net>
Cc: RDS PDP WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Dangers of public whois

>>That would be providing incorrect whois data and can trigger an investigation by ICANN and the registrar, if noticed. Not a good idea. Let's not make the option to violate registration policy an argument against protection of private data.

Really? because I saw firsthand exactly how serious such an investigation is and it's a joke.

>>I am sorry you had that experience. Normally, if evidence is provided by the complainant that the whois is incorrect, most registrars will require that the registrant provides evidence that the updated data is correct, if only to avoid a follow-on complaint. If evidence suggests that the address is obviously and intentionally fake and the domain likely used in abuse, we may not even wait for the feedback of the customer before deactivating.

While my domain was not involved in abuse, making a single address change, and saying "I assure you, this is where people should send mail" is more than enough to satisfy my registrar. Nothing stops someone from making a second complaint against a domain, especially if the goal is for takedown or harassment (which it almost always would be). And that second complaint would be as equally valid as the first one, and equally valid as my subsequent response.

Cue yakety sax.

The emperor wears no clothes.

>>Ah, you misunderstood me. I meant that when I, a customer, get ripped off by an Amazon marketplace seller, Amazon will in all likelyhood not provide me with all data they have on the culprit. Even the police may need a subpoena.

And the registrar doesn't publish payment info when the customer pays with a fake credit card. the comparison to WHOIS is nonsensical. WHOIS is not involved in private commercial transactions.

>>There has to be some form of due process, anything else is anarchy.

The Internet is in a state of anarchy.

>>Verification may be impossible. Validation on the other hand is possible. If you do not like the policy as it stands, propose an alternative solution. Ideally also tell us who will pay for it.

I do not actually think that physical addresses and phone numbers should be verified. I am saying that this dance around the issue of correct WHOIS data is a hilarious joke. You seem to have legal obligations to pretend otherwise, as a registrar, but I don't and I'm pointing out the nakedness of this particular emperor. There is absolutely no compulsion to provide correct info. I challenge you to prove me wrong.

On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 5:00 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>> wrote:

   Hi Greg,

   that is a totally different issue. Maybe such services need better regulation, but as long as the policy requirements are met, taking action solely based on the use of such services is impossible.

   Volker

   Am 14.02.2017 um 20:19 schrieb Greg Aaron:

      No, the RAA validation steps are trivially easy to get around.  You use the example of a fake email address.  Criminals know not to use fake email addresses, and they don’t need to because they can get email addresses for free.  One can sign up for free email accounts anonymously.  There are even underground services that will generate freemail accounts in bulk.  These services cater to criminals such as spammers who need to register lots of domain names.

      All best,

      --Greg

      From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] On Behalf Of Hollenbeck, Scott
      Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 1:57 PM
      To: 'elsakoo at gmail.com<mailto:elsakoo at gmail.com>' <elsakoo at gmail.com><mailto:elsakoo at gmail.com>
      Cc: 'gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>' <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org><mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
      Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Dangers of public whois

      From: allison nixon [mailto:elsakoo at gmail.com]
      Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 1:35 PM
      To: Hollenbeck, Scott <shollenbeck at verisign.com<mailto:shollenbeck at verisign.com>>
      Cc: vgreimann at key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>; gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
      Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Dangers of public whois

      >>[SAH] Actually, there *are* requirements to provide valid data and for registrars to perform validation processing:

      How do you expect toothless policy to work *on the Internet*? Seriously?

      Yes, seriously. Registrars who do not implement the policy are subject to having their accreditation revoked. ICANN has, in fact, revoked or suspended accreditations. Here are two examples:

      https://www.icann.org/news/announcement-2-2007-03-16-en

      https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/correspondence/serad-to-patel-2-18jul14-en.pdf

      worst that can happen when you put in fake whois data is that your domain gets reported, you change "123 fake st" to "124 fake st", and your registrar is satisfied because what more can they possibly do. I know this because I went through this with an old sinkhole domain. It's a total joke. Let's not pretend it's anything more than that.

      Not true. A fake email address, for example, can be detected easily when email sent to it (one of the registrar’s validation requirements) gets bounced back. The worst that can happen is that your domain gets put into some non-operational state (“suspend the registration” per the RAA).

      Scott

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