[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Dangers of public whois
Stephanie Perrin
stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca
Mon Feb 20 14:28:23 UTC 2017
THanks Chris, this is a very useful summary for those of us who are not
dealing with such requests on a daily basis as you guys are. Very helpful.
Stephanie Perrin
On 2017-02-20 08:32, Chris Pelling wrote:
> I'll weigh in here for a registrar who does not host content that is
> not owned by him.
>
> My views and points on this are, for content based issues, in priority
> order, top being the highest (and first port of call) :
>
> 1. Registrant if available or any contact that is identifiable on the
> website in question, if a sub-domain, check the main domain by
> removing the subdomain and adding www or leaving it off. (some
> free hosting sites give subdomains away free, but the main site is
> always only 1 click away)
>
> 2. Hosting company, look at the nameservers and this sometimes gives
> the hosting company name, put the nameserver name into google and more
> often than not, the hosting company will pop up - contact them
> alerting them to the fact that there is potentially infringing
> information on a website that is hosted on servers under their
> control. Good hosting companies are very responsive.
>
> 3. If you cannot work out 2 above, whois the IP address of the
> website (including any subdomain), this will give you the IP address
> owner, they will surely know whom that have given / rented / leased
> the IPs too and this gives you 2 above. If you from doing this get
> the registrar and they are not the hosting company, this would lend to
> it be a forwarding service,
>
> 4. If they are a "reseller centric/wholesale" registrar (eNom,
> Tucows. Realtime, NEO), then WHOIS will often have a "Registration
> service provided by" or "Reseller" in the whois output, this gives you
> the registering party who took the order, if not at the very least the
> registrar.
>
> The problem is from the takedown / infringement requests we see, 1, 2
> and 3 are not even thought of, so part of this is education.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Chris
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From: *"Michele Neylon" <michele at blacknight.com>
> *To: *"Volker Greimann" <vgreimann at key-systems.net>, "gnso-rds-pdp-wg"
> <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> *Sent: *Monday, 20 February, 2017 11:24:53
> *Subject: *Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Dangers of public whois
>
> Volker
>
> From our perspective the frustration is when the client (registrant)
> has their details in whois and / or on the website and the complainant
> makes zero attempt to contact them. The first we hear about the
> alleged issues is when I get a 100 page takedown notice on my desk.
> So if they can at least attempt to contact the website operator then
> it makes our lives a lot easier.
> As the hosting provider we *should* have details of how to reach the
> site owner, but not always, as we also offer dedicated servers, colo
> etc., but we’ll know who the IPs are assigned to
>
> Regards
>
> Michele
>
>
> --
> Mr Michele Neylon
> Blacknight Solutions
> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
> https://www.blacknight.com/
> http://blacknight.blog/
> Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
> Personal blog: https://michele.blog/
> Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/
> -------------------------------
> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business
> Park,Sleaty
> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845
>
> On 20/02/2017, 11:21, "Volker Greimann" <vgreimann at key-systems.net> wrote:
>
> Agreed. The question is who is next if the details are not
> available. If
> it is content, the next port of call should be the host as the
> host has
> the ability to remove said content and also bears certain legal
> obligations in case of obvious violations while the registrar does
> not.
>
> As the registrar may not even know the actual registrant, for example
> for registrations under third party privacy services, it does not
> even
> make sense to contact the registrar.
>
> Best,
>
> Volker
>
>
>
> Am 20.02.2017 um 12:08 schrieb Michele Neylon - Blacknight:
> > Volker
> >
> > The key thing is the sequence.
> > If the contact’s details are available either via whois OR on
> the website then they’re the first port of call.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Michele
> >
> >
> > --
> > Mr Michele Neylon
> > Blacknight Solutions
> > Hosting, Colocation & Domains
> > https://www.blacknight.com/
> > http://blacknight.blog/
> > Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
> > Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
> > Personal blog: https://michele.blog/
> > Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/
> > -------------------------------
> > Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business
> Park,Sleaty
> > Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845
> >
> > On 20/02/2017, 10:46, "Volker Greimann"
> <vgreimann at key-systems.net> wrote:
> >
> > Well, the registrant may not be the right contact in all cases,
> > especially if it comes down to subdomains. But yes, if the
> registrant is
> > known, then he should probably be contacted right after a
> known website
> > operator. But if the registrant is unknown, the next
> contact should be
> > the host as he is closer to the alleged violation than the
> registrar.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Volker
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Am 20.02.2017 um 11:28 schrieb Michele Neylon - Blacknight:
> > > Volker
> > >
> > > Really?
> > > As a hosting provider I’d strongly disagree.
> > >
> > > If you’ve got a problem with content on a website you
> should contact the registrant first.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > Michele
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Mr Michele Neylon
> > > Blacknight Solutions
> > > Hosting, Colocation & Domains
> > > https://www.blacknight.com/
> > > http://blacknight.blog/
> > > Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
> > > Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
> > > Personal blog: https://michele.blog/
> > > Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/
> > > -------------------------------
> > > Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside
> Business Park,Sleaty
> > > Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.:
> 370845
> > >
> > > On 20/02/2017, 09:54, "gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
> on behalf of Volker Greimann" <gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org on
> behalf of vgreimann at key-systems.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > When you say web site, it should be taken up with
> the web host not the
> > > registrar as the registrant is not necessarily the
> correct content.
> > >
> > > Problems with domain -> registrant
> > >
> > > Problems with content -> Web host
> > >
> > > Best,
> > >
> > > Volker
> > >
> > >
> > > Am 17.02.2017 um 20:49 schrieb Mark Svancarek via
> gnso-rds-pdp-wg:
> > > > Counter example
> > > > "Joe" has a web site which is used to abuse my
> trademark. I can't contact Joe because his thin data is incorrect or
> hidden (I don't know that Joe is actually Joe.). I then contact the
> registrar. They follow up with the privacy proxy service if needed.
> Hopefully all this happens quickly and the cease and desist message
> is actually delivered.
> > > >
> > > > In actual practice, there is a noteworthy
> difference in effectiveness if we have to go through the registrar,
> compared to us contacting directly. If the registrar isn't
> responsive, then I may have to pressure ICANN to enforce the registrar
> contract, which has its own issues.
> > > >
> > > > In either case, your abuse of my trademark is
> probably a civil issue, so starting with law enforcement isn't a great
> option, even if they had the inclination and bandwidth to help out in
> a timely fashion.
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: benny at nordreg.se [mailto:benny at nordreg.se]
> > > > Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 9:41 AM
> > > > To: Mark Svancarek <marksv at microsoft.com>
> > > > Cc: RDS PDP WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> > > > Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Dangers of public whois
> > > >
> > > > Let us take a simple example
> > > >
> > > > A phone number can you as the one it's registered
> on choose by yourself if it shall be published in the phone book, if
> you give the number to someone it's your choice as an individual! If
> the police want your number they will get without to much effort.
> > > >
> > > > So why on earth are we forcing registrants to give
> up this right to choose to whom they share that info?
> > > >
> > > > Forget what Whois are as we know it and come up
> with ideas how we can make a new system which takes reasonable
> interest of all sides here.
> > > >
> > > > The Status Quo hammering are not productive at all.
> > > >
> > > > RDS are meant to make change to the better!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Sent from my iPhone
> > > >
> > > >> On 17 Feb 2017, at 18:28, Mark Svancarek
> <marksv at microsoft.com> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Spam and DDOS will always be with us, and the
> need to mitigate them does not eliminate the need to have public data.
> It seems orthogonal to me.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > >> From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
> > > >> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] On
> Behalf Of
> > > >> benny at nordreg.se
> > > >> Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 8:25 AM
> > > >> To: RDS PDP WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
> > > >> Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Dangers of public
> whois
> > > >>
> > > >> Another post about the problems with public whois
> > > >>
> > > >> How anyone here can still defend this abuse of
> info as a the best system I have serious problems understanding.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> http://domainnamewire.com/2017/02/16/control-block-sms-spam-robocallin
> > > >> g-based-whois-info/
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >> Med vänliga hälsningar / Kind Regards / Med
> vennlig hilsen
> > > >>
> > > >> Benny Samuelsen
> > > >> Registry Manager - Domainexpert
> > > >>
> > > >> Nordreg AB - ICANN accredited registrar
> > > >> IANA-ID: 638
> > > >> Phone: +46.42197080
> > > >> Direct: +47.32260201
> > > >> Mobile: +47.40410200
> > > >>
> > > >>> On 17 Feb 2017, at 14:55, Michele Neylon -
> Blacknight <michele at blacknight.com> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Allison
> > > >>>
> > > >>> As others have said, if you have an issue please
> report it to ICANN,
> > > >>> law enforcement, consumer protection etc., Some
> of us take our obligations very seriously and lumping all registrars
> and providers into one big bucket isn't very helpful for constructive
> dialogue.
> > > >>> We get a number of whois complaints from ICANN
> every year and we investigate each and every one of them. In some
> cases it's very obvious that the details provided are bogus, but in
> others it's not and we have to spend time energy and effort going back
> and forth with our client and ICANN to resolve it. Sometimes this
> leads to domains being suspended or deleted, sometimes the whois gets
> updated, sometimes the complaint is denied. But each complaint is
> handled on its merits.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> We also have a whois privacy service. It is NOT
> a fake address. You can check it in the Irish company office:
> > > >>>
> https://search.cro.ie/company/CompanyDetails.aspx?id=480317&type=C
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Now you may not like that people and
> organisations choose to obfuscate their contact details via services
> like that one, but that's a different issue entirely. I also
> personally have correspondence addresses in the US, mainland UK and a
> couple in Northern Ireland. I don't live at any of them, but you can
> send me physical mail and I will get it. You could argue that the
> address is "fake", but as I can get mail to it I'd suspect that in
> many cases it'd be considered valid.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Regards
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Michele
> > > >>>
> > > >>> --
> > > >>> Mr Michele Neylon
> > > >>> Blacknight Solutions
> > > >>> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
> > > >>> https://www.blacknight.com/
> > > >>> http://blacknight.blog/
> > > >>> Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
> > > >>> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
> > > >>> Personal blog: https://michele.blog/
> > > >>> Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/
> > > >>> -------------------------------
> > > >>> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit
> 12A,Barrowside Business
> > > >>> Park,Sleaty
> > > >>> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland
> Company No.: 370845
> > > >>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
> > > >>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> > > >>>
> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
> > > >> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> > > >> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
> > > > gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> > > > https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
> > >
> > > --
> > > Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur
> Verfügung.
> > >
> > > Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
> > >
> > > Volker A. Greimann
> > > - Rechtsabteilung -
> > >
> > > Key-Systems GmbH
> > > Im Oberen Werk 1
> > > 66386 St. Ingbert
> > > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> > > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
> > > Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
> > >
> > > Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
> > > www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
> > >
> > > Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan
> bei Facebook:
> > > www.facebook.com/KeySystems
> > > www.twitter.com/key_systems
> > >
> > > Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
> > > Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
> > > Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
> > >
> > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
> > > www.keydrive.lu
> > >
> > > Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur
> für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe,
> Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist
> unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so
> bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung
> zu setzen.
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Should you have any further questions, please do not
> hesitate to contact us.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > Volker A. Greimann
> > > - legal department -
> > >
> > > Key-Systems GmbH
> > > Im Oberen Werk 1
> > > 66386 St. Ingbert
> > > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> > > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
> > > Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
> > >
> > > Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
> > > www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
> > >
> > > Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on
> Facebook and stay updated:
> > > www.facebook.com/KeySystems
> > > www.twitter.com/key_systems
> > >
> > > CEO: Alexander Siffrin
> > > Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
> > > V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
> > >
> > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
> > > www.keydrive.lu
> > >
> > > This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for
> the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to
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> print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error
> has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
> > > gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> > > https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
> >
> > Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
> >
> > Volker A. Greimann
> > - Rechtsabteilung -
> >
> > Key-Systems GmbH
> > Im Oberen Werk 1
> > 66386 St. Ingbert
> > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
> > Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
> >
> > Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
> > www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
> >
> > Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei
> Facebook:
> > www.facebook.com/KeySystems
> > www.twitter.com/key_systems
> >
> > Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
> > Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
> > Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
> >
> > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
> > www.keydrive.lu
> >
> > Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den
> angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe,
> Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist
> unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so
> bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung
> zu setzen.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------
> >
> > Should you have any further questions, please do not
> hesitate to contact us.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Volker A. Greimann
> > - legal department -
> >
> > Key-Systems GmbH
> > Im Oberen Werk 1
> > 66386 St. Ingbert
> > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
> > Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
> >
> > Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
> > www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
> >
> > Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook
> and stay updated:
> > www.facebook.com/KeySystems
> > www.twitter.com/key_systems
> >
> > CEO: Alexander Siffrin
> > Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
> > V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
> >
> > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
> > www.keydrive.lu
> >
> > This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the
> person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to
> publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy,
> print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error
> has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to
> this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>
> Volker A. Greimann
> - Rechtsabteilung -
>
> Key-Systems GmbH
> Im Oberen Werk 1
> 66386 St. Ingbert
> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
>
> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
>
> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
> www.twitter.com/key_systems
>
> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
>
> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
> www.keydrive.lu
>
> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den
> angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe,
> Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist
> unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so
> bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung
> zu setzen.
>
> --------------------------------------------
>
> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to
> contact us.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Volker A. Greimann
> - legal department -
>
> Key-Systems GmbH
> Im Oberen Werk 1
> 66386 St. Ingbert
> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
>
> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
>
> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and
> stay updated:
> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
> www.twitter.com/key_systems
>
> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>
> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
> www.keydrive.lu
>
> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to
> whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any
> content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely
> on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected
> this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or
> contacting us by telephone.
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
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