[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Dangers of public whois
Volker Greimann
vgreimann at key-systems.net
Fri Feb 24 12:35:34 UTC 2017
So should we maybe include hosting details in the ultimate RDS? These
would have to be supplied differently, but it would make sense if we
want to establish chains of responsibility in the data.
Am 20.02.2017 um 14:20 schrieb theo geurts:
> Good point Michele,
>
> RDS should be a facilitating here in the sense that reports end up at
> the correct party and yet give the reporter a logical natural flow in
> creating the report without creating confusion with different set of
> contacts.
>
> Theo
>
>
> On 20-2-2017 12:24, Michele Neylon - Blacknight wrote:
>> Volker
>>
>> From our perspective the frustration is when the client (registrant)
>> has their details in whois and / or on the website and the
>> complainant makes zero attempt to contact them. The first we hear
>> about the alleged issues is when I get a 100 page takedown notice on
>> my desk.
>> So if they can at least attempt to contact the website operator then
>> it makes our lives a lot easier.
>> As the hosting provider we *should* have details of how to reach the
>> site owner, but not always, as we also offer dedicated servers, colo
>> etc., but we’ll know who the IPs are assigned to
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Michele
>>
>>
>> --
>> Mr Michele Neylon
>> Blacknight Solutions
>> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>> https://www.blacknight.com/
>> http://blacknight.blog/
>> Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
>> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>> Personal blog: https://michele.blog/
>> Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/
>> -------------------------------
>> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business
>> Park,Sleaty
>> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845
>>
>> On 20/02/2017, 11:21, "Volker Greimann" <vgreimann at key-systems.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Agreed. The question is who is next if the details are not
>> available. If
>> it is content, the next port of call should be the host as the
>> host has
>> the ability to remove said content and also bears certain legal
>> obligations in case of obvious violations while the registrar
>> does not.
>> As the registrar may not even know the actual registrant,
>> for example
>> for registrations under third party privacy services, it does
>> not even
>> make sense to contact the registrar.
>> Best,
>> Volker
>> Am 20.02.2017 um 12:08 schrieb Michele Neylon -
>> Blacknight:
>> > Volker
>> >
>> > The key thing is the sequence.
>> > If the contact’s details are available either via whois OR on
>> the website then they’re the first port of call.
>> >
>> > Regards
>> >
>> > Michele
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Mr Michele Neylon
>> > Blacknight Solutions
>> > Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>> > https://www.blacknight.com/
>> > http://blacknight.blog/
>> > Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
>> > Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>> > Personal blog: https://michele.blog/
>> > Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/
>> > -------------------------------
>> > Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside
>> Business Park,Sleaty
>> > Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845
>> >
>> > On 20/02/2017, 10:46, "Volker Greimann"
>> <vgreimann at key-systems.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > Well, the registrant may not be the right contact in all
>> cases,
>> > especially if it comes down to subdomains. But yes, if
>> the registrant is
>> > known, then he should probably be contacted right after a
>> known website
>> > operator. But if the registrant is unknown, the next
>> contact should be
>> > the host as he is closer to the alleged violation than
>> the registrar.
>> >
>> > Best,
>> >
>> > Volker
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Am 20.02.2017 um 11:28 schrieb Michele Neylon - Blacknight:
>> > > Volker
>> > >
>> > > Really?
>> > > As a hosting provider I’d strongly disagree.
>> > >
>> > > If you’ve got a problem with content on a website you
>> should contact the registrant first.
>> > >
>> > > Regards
>> > >
>> > > Michele
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Mr Michele Neylon
>> > > Blacknight Solutions
>> > > Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>> > > https://www.blacknight.com/
>> > > http://blacknight.blog/
>> > > Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
>> > > Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>> > > Personal blog: https://michele.blog/
>> > > Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/
>> > > -------------------------------
>> > > Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside
>> Business Park,Sleaty
>> > > Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.:
>> 370845
>> > >
>> > > On 20/02/2017, 09:54,
>> "gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org on behalf of Volker Greimann"
>> <gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org on behalf of
>> vgreimann at key-systems.net> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > When you say web site, it should be taken up with
>> the web host not the
>> > > registrar as the registrant is not necessarily the
>> correct content.
>> > >
>> > > Problems with domain -> registrant
>> > >
>> > > Problems with content -> Web host
>> > >
>> > > Best,
>> > >
>> > > Volker
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Am 17.02.2017 um 20:49 schrieb Mark Svancarek via
>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg:
>> > > > Counter example
>> > > > "Joe" has a web site which is used to abuse my
>> trademark. I can't contact Joe because his thin data is incorrect or
>> hidden (I don't know that Joe is actually Joe.). I then contact the
>> registrar. They follow up with the privacy proxy service if needed.
>> Hopefully all this happens quickly and the cease and desist message
>> is actually delivered.
>> > > >
>> > > > In actual practice, there is a noteworthy
>> difference in effectiveness if we have to go through the registrar,
>> compared to us contacting directly. If the registrar isn't
>> responsive, then I may have to pressure ICANN to enforce the
>> registrar contract, which has its own issues.
>> > > >
>> > > > In either case, your abuse of my trademark is
>> probably a civil issue, so starting with law enforcement isn't a
>> great option, even if they had the inclination and bandwidth to help
>> out in a timely fashion.
>> > > >
>> > > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > > From: benny at nordreg.se [mailto:benny at nordreg.se]
>> > > > Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 9:41 AM
>> > > > To: Mark Svancarek <marksv at microsoft.com>
>> > > > Cc: RDS PDP WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> > > > Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Dangers of public
>> whois
>> > > >
>> > > > Let us take a simple example
>> > > >
>> > > > A phone number can you as the one it's
>> registered on choose by yourself if it shall be published in the
>> phone book, if you give the number to someone it's your choice as an
>> individual! If the police want your number they will get without to
>> much effort.
>> > > >
>> > > > So why on earth are we forcing registrants to
>> give up this right to choose to whom they share that info?
>> > > >
>> > > > Forget what Whois are as we know it and come up
>> with ideas how we can make a new system which takes reasonable
>> interest of all sides here.
>> > > >
>> > > > The Status Quo hammering are not productive at all.
>> > > >
>> > > > RDS are meant to make change to the better!
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Sent from my iPhone
>> > > >
>> > > >> On 17 Feb 2017, at 18:28, Mark Svancarek
>> <marksv at microsoft.com> wrote:
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Spam and DDOS will always be with us, and the
>> need to mitigate them does not eliminate the need to have public
>> data. It seems orthogonal to me.
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> -----Original Message-----
>> > > >> From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
>> > > >> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] On
>> Behalf Of
>> > > >> benny at nordreg.se
>> > > >> Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 8:25 AM
>> > > >> To: RDS PDP WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> > > >> Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Dangers of
>> public whois
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Another post about the problems with public whois
>> > > >>
>> > > >> How anyone here can still defend this abuse of
>> info as a the best system I have serious problems understanding.
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> http://domainnamewire.com/2017/02/16/control-block-sms-spam-robocallin
>> > > >> g-based-whois-info/
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> --
>> > > >> Med vänliga hälsningar / Kind Regards / Med
>> vennlig hilsen
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Benny Samuelsen
>> > > >> Registry Manager - Domainexpert
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Nordreg AB - ICANN accredited registrar
>> > > >> IANA-ID: 638
>> > > >> Phone: +46.42197080
>> > > >> Direct: +47.32260201
>> > > >> Mobile: +47.40410200
>> > > >>
>> > > >>> On 17 Feb 2017, at 14:55, Michele Neylon -
>> Blacknight <michele at blacknight.com> wrote:
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> Allison
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> As others have said, if you have an issue
>> please report it to ICANN,
>> > > >>> law enforcement, consumer protection etc.,
>> Some of us take our obligations very seriously and lumping all
>> registrars and providers into one big bucket isn't very helpful for
>> constructive dialogue.
>> > > >>> We get a number of whois complaints from ICANN
>> every year and we investigate each and every one of them. In some
>> cases it's very obvious that the details provided are bogus, but in
>> others it's not and we have to spend time energy and effort going
>> back and forth with our client and ICANN to resolve it. Sometimes
>> this leads to domains being suspended or deleted, sometimes the whois
>> gets updated, sometimes the complaint is denied. But each complaint
>> is handled on its merits.
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> We also have a whois privacy service. It is
>> NOT a fake address. You can check it in the Irish company office:
>> > > >>>
>> https://search.cro.ie/company/CompanyDetails.aspx?id=480317&type=C
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> Now you may not like that people and
>> organisations choose to obfuscate their contact details via services
>> like that one, but that's a different issue entirely. I also
>> personally have correspondence addresses in the US, mainland UK and a
>> couple in Northern Ireland. I don't live at any of them, but you can
>> send me physical mail and I will get it. You could argue that the
>> address is "fake", but as I can get mail to it I'd suspect that in
>> many cases it'd be considered valid.
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> Regards
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> Michele
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> --
>> > > >>> Mr Michele Neylon
>> > > >>> Blacknight Solutions
>> > > >>> Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>> > > >>> https://www.blacknight.com/
>> > > >>> http://blacknight.blog/
>> > > >>> Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
>> > > >>> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>> > > >>> Personal blog: https://michele.blog/
>> > > >>> Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/
>> > > >>> -------------------------------
>> > > >>> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit
>> 12A,Barrowside Business
>> > > >>> Park,Sleaty
>> > > >>> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland
>> Company No.: 370845
>> > > >>> _______________________________________________
>> > > >>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>> > > >>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>> > > >>>
>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>> > > >> _______________________________________________
>> > > >> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>> > > >> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>> > > >>
>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>> > > > _______________________________________________
>> > > > gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>> > > > gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>> > > >
>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur
>> Verfügung.
>> > >
>> > > Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>> > >
>> > > Volker A. Greimann
>> > > - Rechtsabteilung -
>> > >
>> > > Key-Systems GmbH
>> > > Im Oberen Werk 1
>> > > 66386 St. Ingbert
>> > > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>> > > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>> > > Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
>> > >
>> > > Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
>> > > www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
>> > >
>> > > Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser
>> Fan bei Facebook:
>> > > www.facebook.com/KeySystems
>> > > www.twitter.com/key_systems
>> > >
>> > > Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
>> > > Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>> > > Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
>> > >
>> > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>> > > www.keydrive.lu
>> > >
>> > > Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und
>> nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der
>> Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den
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>> telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
>> > >
>> > > --------------------------------------------
>> > >
>> > > Should you have any further questions, please do
>> not hesitate to contact us.
>> > >
>> > > Best regards,
>> > >
>> > > Volker A. Greimann
>> > > - legal department -
>> > >
>> > > Key-Systems GmbH
>> > > Im Oberen Werk 1
>> > > 66386 St. Ingbert
>> > > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>> > > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>> > > Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
>> > >
>> > > Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
>> > > www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
>> > >
>> > > Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on
>> Facebook and stay updated:
>> > > www.facebook.com/KeySystems
>> > > www.twitter.com/key_systems
>> > >
>> > > CEO: Alexander Siffrin
>> > > Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>> > > V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>> > >
>> > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>> > > www.keydrive.lu
>> > >
>> > > This e-mail and its attachments is intended only
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>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>> > > gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>> > > https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>> >
>> > Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>> >
>> > Volker A. Greimann
>> > - Rechtsabteilung -
>> >
>> > Key-Systems GmbH
>> > Im Oberen Werk 1
>> > 66386 St. Ingbert
>> > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>> > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>> > Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
>> >
>> > Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
>> > www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
>> >
>> > Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei
>> Facebook:
>> > www.facebook.com/KeySystems
>> > www.twitter.com/key_systems
>> >
>> > Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
>> > Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>> > Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
>> >
>> > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>> > www.keydrive.lu
>> >
>> > Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für
>> den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe,
>> Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist
>> unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so
>> bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in
>> Verbindung zu setzen.
>> >
>> > --------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Should you have any further questions, please do not
>> hesitate to contact us.
>> >
>> > Best regards,
>> >
>> > Volker A. Greimann
>> > - legal department -
>> >
>> > Key-Systems GmbH
>> > Im Oberen Werk 1
>> > 66386 St. Ingbert
>> > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>> > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>> > Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
>> >
>> > Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
>> > www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
>> >
>> > Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on
>> Facebook and stay updated:
>> > www.facebook.com/KeySystems
>> > www.twitter.com/key_systems
>> >
>> > CEO: Alexander Siffrin
>> > Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>> > V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>> >
>> > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>> > www.keydrive.lu
>> >
>> > This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the
>> person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to
>> publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy,
>> print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error
>> has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to
>> this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> --
>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>> Volker A. Greimann
>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>> Key-Systems GmbH
>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei
>> Facebook:
>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
>> www.twitter.com/key_systems
>> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>> www.keydrive.lu
>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den
>> angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe,
>> Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist
>> unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so
>> bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in
>> Verbindung zu setzen.
>> --------------------------------------------
>> Should you have any further questions, please do not
>> hesitate to contact us.
>> Best regards,
>> Volker A. Greimann
>> - legal department -
>> Key-Systems GmbH
>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
>> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
>> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook
>> and stay updated:
>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
>> www.twitter.com/key_systems
>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>> www.keydrive.lu
>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the
>> person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to
>> publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy,
>> print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error
>> has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to
>> this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>
--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems
www.twitter.com/key_systems
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems
www.twitter.com/key_systems
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
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