[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Purpose in accordance with Registry Agreement section 2.18
John Bambenek
jcb at bambenekconsulting.com
Tue Jun 6 17:23:08 UTC 2017
On 06/06/2017 12:16 PM, Volker Greimann wrote:
>
>>
>> >>Just answer me on this why should they be allowed a non contractual
>> use of the data, and not all Security are white hats which only do good
>>
>> Data can be used for good and evil. I am sure the data is being used
>> for some sort of evil. Just because someone has devised a malicious
>> use for something doesn't mean that it should be shut down for
>> everyone. There's a balance of benefits and harms here, and right now
>> the benefits outweigh the harms by far. Any analysis of the total
>> harms caused by whois, versus the harms prevented using whois will be
>> far in favor of the latter.
> Granted, however if there is a way to limit the access of evildoers
> while still allowing those without ill intent reasonable access,
> should we not explore such a way preferentially? The more we can shift
> the balance away from abusive potential and towards positive use, the
> better.
There is not and its naive to think you ever can. It's 2017, you can't
verify that it's actually John Bambenek sending this e-mail right now.
Not much more than a few messages ago someone had suggested it was
impossible for a registrar to verify their domains aren't being used for
abuse.
The people who are actually fighting abusive use are the ones saying we
need this tool.
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 1:01 PM, benny at nordreg.se
>> <mailto:benny at nordreg.se> <benny at nordreg.se
>> <mailto:benny at nordreg.se>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > On 6 Jun 2017, at 18:51, allison nixon <elsakoo at gmail.com
>> <mailto:elsakoo at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> >
>> > >>You state that Public whois are important so people can check
>> if there personal info are used for registration of domains, but
>> can’t the same public data be the source for the data being
>> abused for registrations?
>> >
>> > You are inventing an imaginary edge case as a rebuttal to evidence based observations that we
>> have made in the course of our work.
>>
>> Well I see different, where data in whois combined with other
>> sources are used for different kind of scams.
>>
>>
>> >
>> > >>Anti Abuse are important no one disagree on that, what I just
>> don’t get are why you and others can’t come up with an idea of
>> how we can make a better solution than today which benefits all
>> sides, instead of fighting for Status Quo.
>> >
>> > The status quo is actually really good. We can do our work
>> without viewing people's ACTUAL private data, like their billing
>> info or personal internet traffic from their ISP. And we can do
>> our work without any government coercion to force people to
>> disclose anything. I don't see why there is such a desire to
>> disrupt this balance. It is only downhill from here.
>>
>> Sure I understand free and unlimited access are nice to have…
>>
>> >
>> > >>What business is it of ours how a registrant uses a domain name
>> >
>> > This is the exact same argument used by bullet proof hosters,
>> but the cops never buy it. I'm not saying you are, but I'm saying
>> that this argument has never been regarded as a valid defense
>> when open and rampant abuse is happening among one's customer base.
>>
>>
>> Not a part of my comment and dont belong here when you reply to
>> my post…
>>
>>
>> >
>> > >>Well Registrars and Registries have contractual obligations
>> on how data shall be handled and I don’t see why anti abuse and
>> others handling those data elements shall be allowed to freely
>> use these data in a non controlled manner were there are no
>> contractual obligations.
>> >
>> > You do understand that the security industry is more than
>> willing to pay for bulk, unrestricted access to this data, right?
>>
>> Just answer me on this why should they be allowed a non
>> contractual use of the data, and not all Security are white hats
>> which only do good
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 11:59 AM, benny at nordreg.se
>> <mailto:benny at nordreg.se> <benny at nordreg.se
>> <mailto:benny at nordreg.se>> wrote:
>> > You state that Public whois are important so people can check
>> if there personal info are used for registration of domains, but
>> can’t the same public data be the source for the data being
>> abused for registrations?
>> > --
>> > Med vänliga hälsningar / Kind Regards / Med vennlig hilsen
>> >
>> > Benny Samuelsen
>> > Registry Manager - Domainexpert
>> >
>> > Nordreg AB - ICANN accredited registrar
>> > IANA-ID: 638
>> > Phone: +46.42197000 <tel:%2B46.42197000>
>> > Direct: +47.32260201 <tel:%2B47.32260201>
>> > Mobile: +47.40410200 <tel:%2B47.40410200>
>> >
>> > > On 6 Jun 2017, at 17:53, jonathan matkowsky
>> <jonathan.matkowsky at riskiq.net
>> <mailto:jonathan.matkowsky at riskiq.net>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > What do you mean?
>> > >
>> > > Jonathan Matkowsky
>> > >
>> > > On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 6:39 PM, benny at nordreg.se
>> <mailto:benny at nordreg.se> <benny at nordreg.se
>> <mailto:benny at nordreg.se>> wrote:
>> > > And you can by that say with a 100 % certainty that those
>> abused data was not originating from whois it self?
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Med vänliga hälsningar / Kind Regards / Med vennlig hilsen
>> > >
>> > > Benny Samuelsen
>> > > Registry Manager - Domainexpert
>> > >
>> > > Nordreg AB - ICANN accredited registrar
>> > > IANA-ID: 638
>> > > Phone: +46.42197000 <tel:%2B46.42197000>
>> > > Direct: +47.32260201 <tel:%2B47.32260201>
>> > > Mobile: +47.40410200 <tel:%2B47.40410200>
>> > >
>> > > > On 6 Jun 2017, at 16:54, jonathan matkowsky
>> <jonathan.matkowsky at riskiq.net
>> <mailto:jonathan.matkowsky at riskiq.net>> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > Abusive domains are also seriously problematic from a
>> privacy standpoint because apart from fake credentials as Natale
>> mentions below, I can't begin to tell you how many cases I've
>> seen in the last several years where innocent peoples' identities
>> are compromised and then used in the Whois as part of the abuse.
>> Without access to the public Whois, they never would have known
>> their identity had been stolen. Access to Whois for abusive
>> domains actually serves to protect privacy interests.
>> > > >
>> > > > Jonathan Matkowsky
>> > > >
>> > > > On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 4:58 PM, Natale Maria Bianchi
>> <nmb at spamhaus.org <mailto:nmb at spamhaus.org>> wrote:
>> > > > Besides private and business domains, there is also the
>> large category of
>> > > > abusive domains - domains registered (or acquired from a
>> previous owner)
>> > > > for the only purpose of abusing the Internet. One may
>> perhaps categorize
>> > > > them as "business", but it does not make much sense to put
>> them together
>> > > > with domains used legitimately, or worry much about privacy
>> issues -
>> > > > those are typically registered giving fake credentials, or the
>> > > > credentials are hidden from the public through an anonymous
>> registration,
>> > > > and no one will every file a privacy complaint about those.
>> > > >
>> > > > There are operations out there that do this on a massive,
>> industrial scale,
>> > > > registering hundreds or thousands of domains per day that
>> are going to be
>> > > > used for a very short time, even a few minutes in the most
>> extreme cases
>> > > > (hailstorm spammers). In these cases, literally every
>> second after
>> > > > registration matters, and whois is therefore a very
>> critical resource for
>> > > > abuse researchers. This is why I and others are here.
>> > > >
>> > > > Due to the automated methods used for these registrations
>> and the
>> > > > consequent correlations between them, it is quite common to
>> be able to
>> > > > indeed distinguish this category of domains with
>> "sufficient accuracy"
>> > > > once whois data have been retrieved.
>> > > >
>> > > > So please think in terms of three de facto categories
>> rather than two:
>> > > >
>> > > > * legitimate, private
>> > > > * legitimate, business
>> > > > * abusive
>> > > >
>> > > > I am not suggesting that one puts the third category in ICANN
>> > > > agreements :) I am merely reminding that looking for
>> abusive domains
>> > > > is a very important operational aspect of thin and thick
>> whois, and
>> > > > care should be taken not to throw this other baby away with
>> > > > the baby water.
>> > > >
>> > > > Natale Maria Bianchi
>> > > > Spamhaus Project
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > On Tue, Jun 06, 2017 at 11:24:10AM +0200, Volker Greimann
>> wrote:
>> > > > > If you can differentiate the use that a domain isgoing to
>> be put to
>> > > > > at the time of registration with sufficient accuracy, you
>> are due
>> > > > > for an an award ;-)
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Am 02.06.2017 um 22:15 schrieb Dotzero:
>> > > > > >The overwhelming majority of domains registered would be
>> > > > > >considered for commercial purposes. The fact that a small
>> > > > > >percentage of domains are registered by individuals for
>> personal
>> > > > > >use should not be the determining factor as to what is
>> appropriate
>> > > > > >for ICANN to do. In fact, many of what people assert are
>> personal
>> > > > > >domains have advertising on them and would therefor be
>> considered
>> > > > > >by almost any jurisdiction to be engaged in a commercial
>> activity.
>> > > > > >This includes many (most?) parked domains.
>> > > > > [...]
>> > > >
>> > > > _______________________________________________
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>> > > >
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>> >
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>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > _________________________________
>> > Note to self: Pillage BEFORE burning.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> _________________________________
>> Note to self: Pillage BEFORE burning.
>>
>>
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>
> --
> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>
> Volker A. Greimann
> - Rechtsabteilung -
>
> Key-Systems GmbH
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> --------------------------------------------
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> Best regards,
>
> Volker A. Greimann
> - legal department -
>
> Key-Systems GmbH
> Im Oberen Werk 1
> 66386 St. Ingbert
> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
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