[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Why the thin data is necessary
Volker Greimann
vgreimann at key-systems.net
Wed Jun 7 10:17:21 UTC 2017
Hi Paul,
the privacy angle, as you call it, had to be investigated. I was never
claiming that there was an issue with the data we currently consider
thin, but as people thought there might be it was worth looking into, if
only to definitely exclude that possibility.
And just because a gate can be overcome does not mean it is useless. The
same would apply to whois verification and validation. It is largely
useless because it is easily overcome but yet folks still wanted it.
People are still clamoring for cross-field validation even though that
will not deter abuse or improve data quality. Stolen data is perfectly
verifiable, after all. But the proponents of these measures claim that
it does have _some_ effect.
So why does the same argument not apply here?
Best,
Volker
Am 07.06.2017 um 12:05 schrieb Paul Keating:
> Sorry but your position keeps changing. You clearly favor
> restrictions on access. You appear to have abandoned the privacy
> angle as justification and are now relying upon an anti-abuse
> rationale. This last position is rather useless. We all know that
> captcha and other gates easily overcome. Thus the abuse you note
> will continue. Unless you are going to impose downstream use
> restrictions - which will largely if not entirely be unenforceable
> from a practical standpoint - there would be nothing to prevent a
> spammer to authenticate him/her self using any number of fake entities
> and thereafter publish the same data freely to others.
>
> I am left to conclude that what you really want is to preclude
> harvesting of data so that it can be controlled at the
> registry/registrar level.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On 7 Jun 2017, at 10:31, Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net
> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>> wrote:
>
>> Hi Jonathan,
>>
>> and I have no issue with the public being able to get that
>> information. Still, there is no reason why the requester should not
>> authenticate himself when making that inquiry. Remember the access
>> levels do not block access, they just require further
>> authentification. So the public would be able to find out when a
>> domain is expected to become available. This is no argument against
>> gated access.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Volker
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 07.06.2017 um 11:23 schrieb jonathan matkowsky:
>>> The public has the right to know when a domain is expected to become
>>> available. They might need to place a backorder. All UDRPs require
>>> the provider to check whether the domain is set to expire during the
>>> proceeding. The fake renewal notices and SEO scams will continue
>>> based on the existence of the domain. I have seen countless such
>>> scams where the domain is not set to expire for years, and where it
>>> wasn't even recently created--which supports keeping the creation
>>> and expiration dates ungated so that companies can verify that the
>>> scams are not bona fide.
>>>
>>> On Wed, 7 Jun 2017 at 11:54 Volker Greimann
>>> <vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>> It is remarkable how much of the spam that we see on a regular
>>> basis that is tied to the domain lifecycle. Fake renewal
>>> notices, SEO offers, the lot.
>>> Anything that would reduce this is a basis for restricting
>>> access somewhat. I do not really see any harm in such
>>> restrictions either.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Volker
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 07.06.2017 um 10:27 schrieb jonathan matkowsky:
>>>> There is no basis for restricting ungated access any more so
>>>> than the domain's existence or the string of characters registered.
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 7 Jun 2017 at 11:22 Volker Greimann
>>>> <vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I have no objections against having this data available and
>>>> accessible.
>>>> The question is whether it should be as accessible as it is
>>>> now or
>>>> whether there could be certain restrictions. A tiered
>>>> access system as
>>>> has been proposed would solve this beautifully.
>>>>
>>>> In this case, the dates would be on the second tier (the
>>>> first tier
>>>> being full unhindered access), which would entail some form of
>>>> authentification and bulk access restrictions. Every single
>>>> one of the
>>>> uses Andrew desribes would remain possible and
>>>> unproblematic, but the
>>>> data would no longer be in as much danger of being abused
>>>> as it is today.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Volker
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Am 06.06.2017 um 22:07 schrieb Michael Peddemors:
>>>> > +1 as well..
>>>> >
>>>> > .. but with so many +1's on having that data publicly
>>>> accessible, it
>>>> > would be interesting to take a straw poll, to a wider
>>>> audience on that
>>>> > simple question..
>>>> >
>>>> > It would be also nice to see what category the parties in
>>>> each camp
>>>> > lie? We know that everyone involved in making the
>>>> internet a safer and
>>>> > better place (security companies, law enforcement et al)
>>>> want it
>>>> > available, and to define 'thin data' as wide as possible,
>>>> and I can
>>>> > understand that some consideration to privacy be
>>>> considered so that it
>>>> > doesn't go too wide, but not really certain I understand
>>>> the position
>>>> > of those that want it as 'thin' as possible, or
>>>> non-existant, and/or
>>>> > the parties behind that position and their numbers.
>>>> >
>>>> > And of course the ever present question for both camps,
>>>> is the opinion
>>>> > coming from a place where there are financial motivations
>>>> (not that
>>>> > necessarily there is anything wrong with that <sic>) that
>>>> have formed
>>>> > the basis of that opinion. (eg, if the money equation was
>>>> removed,
>>>> > would you still have that opinion, or even be in the
>>>> conversation?)
>>>> >
>>>> > For all we know, the privacy camp are in very small
>>>> numbers in this
>>>> > conversation, and while they might hold legitimate
>>>> positions, maybe it
>>>> > isn't enough to affect the directions/positions of ICANN
>>>> as a group
>>>> > going forward.
>>>> >
>>>> > And IMHO, even if it was 50/50 split, if it came down to
>>>> two camps, eg
>>>> > 'the ones keeping us safe' and 'it affects/risks our
>>>> pocketbooks', I
>>>> > would err on policies that would aid the former..
>>>> >
>>>> > Don't want 'politics' to affect such important decisions..
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On 17-06-06 11:22 AM, Andrew Sullivan wrote:
>>>> >> Hi,
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On the call today there were arguments being made about
>>>> why certain
>>>> >> fields should not be publicly accessible. In effect,
>>>> what we are now
>>>> >> arguing about, in talking about what should be
>>>> considered "thin data",
>>>> >> is the definition of the set of data to which
>>>> unauthenticated access
>>>> >> should be permitted. (Let us please not get distracted
>>>> by what is
>>>> >> actually required by the RAA or anything like that just
>>>> now, since the
>>>> >> outcome of this policy discussion might change that.)
>>>> >>
>>>> >> There were several arguments put forth about whether the
>>>> created on,
>>>> >> updated on, and expiry dates should be included.
>>>> Similarly, people
>>>> >> discussed whether the domain status values should be
>>>> included. I
>>>> >> believe they must be.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> The Internet is unlike many other technologies because
>>>> of its radical
>>>> >> decentralization. That is not some sort of political
>>>> choice, but
>>>> >> instead a fundamental part of the design of the
>>>> Internet: it's a
>>>> >> network of networks (of networks…) formed by voluntary
>>>> interoperation
>>>> >> among the participants. Participants in the Internet
>>>> interoperate
>>>> >> without setting up formal contractual arrangements
>>>> between all the
>>>> >> participating parties. This feature is part of what has
>>>> made the
>>>> >> Internet so successful compared to other
>>>> telecommunications systems,
>>>> >> because the barrier to entry is really low. But that
>>>> design comes at
>>>> >> a cost.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> The cost is that there's not always a party to speak to,
>>>> with whom one
>>>> >> has a pre-existing relationship. If communications break
>>>> down between
>>>> >> two telephone customers, they know whom to call: the
>>>> phone company.
>>>> >> The phone company also has contractual (or sometimes treaty)
>>>> >> relationships to other phone companies.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> The Internet doesn't work that way. If you and I are
>>>> communicating
>>>> >> over the Internet, there is no guarantee of direct
>>>> contractual
>>>> >> relationships all the way along the transit path: that's
>>>> what open
>>>> >> peering policies ensure. The way we make this work in
>>>> fact is by
>>>> >> placing the responsibility for troubleshooting out at
>>>> the edges. And
>>>> >> because of that, when I need to troubleshoot my site I
>>>> need to have
>>>> >> tools with which to do that.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> In domain-based communications (such as email, IP
>>>> telephony, websites,
>>>> >> money transfer, and thousands of other applications),
>>>> when I encounter
>>>> >> a problem with the communication I need to answer
>>>> whether the problem
>>>> >> is in _my_ network operation, or in the other end.
>>>> Important data to
>>>> >> rule out "the other end" is in the thin RDS data.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Obviously, the nameserver and DNSSEC information in the
>>>> RDS will allow
>>>> >> me to tell whether what is in the global DNS is what
>>>> ought to be
>>>> >> there. For instance, if the RDS has one value for the
>>>> name servers,
>>>> >> but the DNS returns something else, there is a problem.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Less obvious but just as important are the status
>>>> values. If a name
>>>> >> is on Hold or is pendingTransfer or something like that,
>>>> it can tell
>>>> >> me that something is up. A name that doesn't appear in
>>>> the DNS but
>>>> >> has a full complement of name servers in the RDS, for
>>>> example, might
>>>> >> be on hold; and I can't tell that without seeing the
>>>> status values.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> In the same way, the dates in the RDS allow a
>>>> troubleshooter to
>>>> >> understand what might be wrong when things are broken.
>>>> If a name is
>>>> >> set to expire in a day and you're getting a parking page
>>>> on the
>>>> >> website, you have a clue about what is going on. Most
>>>> of the examples
>>>> >> cited in
>>>> >>
>>>> https://whoapi.com/blog/1582/5-all-time-domain-expirations-in-internets-history/
>>>> >>
>>>> >> were trivial to understand for help desks that could see
>>>> that a name
>>>> >> that should have existed for some time was just hours
>>>> old, because the
>>>> >> created_on date was available. And if you start having
>>>> trouble and
>>>> >> see a domain was updated about the same time the trouble
>>>> started, you
>>>> >> have a pretty good clue that the problem is most likely
>>>> at the target
>>>> >> domain, and not in your own network.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> As for the question of why the global Internet
>>>> infrastructure needs to
>>>> >> help with this, the answer is that _that's what the
>>>> infrastructure is
>>>> >> for_. We have registrars and registries in order to
>>>> co-ordinate these
>>>> >> assignments and make those assignments available, in
>>>> support of the
>>>> >> distributed administration and operation of the
>>>> Internet. If the
>>>> >> infrastructure isn't providing this kind of information
>>>> in order to
>>>> >> help administrators of various Internet administrators,
>>>> then it isn't
>>>> >> doing its job.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> The Internet is a distributed system. If you want to
>>>> make distributed
>>>> >> systems work, you have to allow the operators to have enough
>>>> >> information to do their jobs independently of one
>>>> another. So,
>>>> >> regardless of where one lands on whether any of this
>>>> data is personal
>>>> >> data, it makes no difference. If you want the domain
>>>> name system to
>>>> >> continue to work reliably, you have to publish this data.
>>>> >> Centralization and locking the data up for just
>>>> registrars simply
>>>> >> won't scale.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Best regards,
>>>> >>
>>>> >> A
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>>>
>>>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>>>
>>>> Volker A. Greimann
>>>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>>>
>>>> Key-Systems GmbH
>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>>>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
>>>> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
>>>>
>>>> Web: www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /
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>>>>
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>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Should you have any further questions, please do not
>>>> hesitate to contact us.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Volker A. Greimann
>>>> - legal department -
>>>>
>>>> Key-Systems GmbH
>>>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>>>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>>>> Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
>>>> <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
>>>>
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>>>> www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
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>>>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook
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>>>>
>>>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
>>>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>>>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>>>>
>>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>>>> www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
>>>>
>>>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>>>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> jonathan matkowsky, vp - ip & head of global brand threat
>>>> mitigation
>>>
>>> --
>>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>>
>>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>>
>>> Volker A. Greimann
>>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>>
>>> Key-Systems GmbH
>>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>>> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
>>>
>>> Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
>>> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
>>>
>>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
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>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
>>>
>>> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
>>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
>>>
>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>>> www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
>>>
>>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Volker A. Greimann
>>> - legal department -
>>>
>>> Key-Systems GmbH
>>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>>> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
>>>
>>> Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
>>> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
>>>
>>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
>>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
>>> www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
>>>
>>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
>>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>>>
>>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>>> www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
>>>
>>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> jonathan matkowsky, vp - ip & head of global brand threat mitigation
>>
>> --
>> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
>>
>> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
>> - Rechtsabteilung -
>>
>> Key-Systems GmbH
>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net
>>
>> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net
>> www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com
>>
>> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
>> www.twitter.com/key_systems
>>
>> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
>> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
>>
>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>> www.keydrive.lu
>>
>> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
>>
>> --------------------------------------------
>>
>> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Volker A. Greimann
>> - legal department -
>>
>> Key-Systems GmbH
>> Im Oberen Werk 1
>> 66386 St. Ingbert
>> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
>> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
>> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net
>>
>> Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net
>> www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com
>>
>> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
>> www.facebook.com/KeySystems
>> www.twitter.com/key_systems
>>
>> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
>> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
>> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
>>
>> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
>> www.keydrive.lu
>>
>> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
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>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems
www.twitter.com/key_systems
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann at key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net
www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems
www.twitter.com/key_systems
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
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