[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Recordings, Attendance & AC Chat from Next-Gen RDS PDP WG call on Wednesday, 21 June 2017 at 05:00 UTC
Michelle DeSmyter
michelle.desmyter at icann.org
Wed Jun 21 12:05:30 UTC 2017
Dear All,
Please find the attendance of the call attached to this email and the MP3 recording below for the Next-Gen RDS PDP Working group call held on Wednesday, 21 June 2017 at 05:00 UTC.
MP3: https://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-nextgen-rds-pdp-21jun17-en.mp3
AC recording: https://participate.icann.org/p1jnh64oald/
The recordings and transcriptions of the calls are posted on the GNSO Master Calendar page:
http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__gnso.icann.org_en_group-2Dactivities_calendar-23nov&d=DwMF-g&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=PDd_FX3f4MVgkEIi9GHvVoUhbecsvLhgsyXrxgtbL10DTBs0i1jYiBM_uTSDzgqG&m=GJMkY4Fbi9sry9Z53DaSWJm-mHxMfFxg7MEVDf2JU90&s=FI3QJYH6DWWCDQir6NDMSjPkzdqfTTUmf9Ua-AYpc14&e=>
** Please let me know if your name has been left off the list **
Mailing list archives:http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-rds-pdp-wg/
Wiki page: https://community.icann.org/x/JsPRAw
Thank you.
Kind regards,
Michelle
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AC Chat Next-Gen RDS PDP WG Wednesday, 21 June 2017
Michelle DeSmyter:Welcome to the next GNSO Next-Gen RDS PDP Working Group teleconference on Wednesday, 21 June at 05:00 UTC for 90 minutes.
Michelle DeSmyter:Agenda wiki page;https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_x_JsPRAw&d=DwICaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=8_WhWIPqsLT6TmF1Zmyci866vcPSFO4VShFqESGe_5iHWGlBLwwwehFBfjrsjWv9&m=TNoGpKd0c5ik4O2C_O_9_MX-BQE2O2G7dztqS4bGOHE&s=fNN-cv4RH45Dfblq7rh2A1wNLNokD25vNBin2l4SW3Y&e=
Chuck Gomes:Hello all
Michelle DeSmyter:Hi there Chuck!
Alex Deacon:hi all....
Herb Waye Ombuds:Greetings everyone
Benny Samuelsen / Nordreg AB:Sara are not let in
Marika Konings:@Benny - we don't see anyone waiting to be let in. She may need to log in again.
Marika Konings:assuming you are referring to Adobe Connect....
Michelle DeSmyter:I will let the operator know via the audio end to watch for any additional lines that might be waiting
Lisa Phifer:Contact: Herb Waye <herb.waye at icann.org<mailto:herb.waye at icann.org>>
Herb Waye Ombuds:Thanks again and see you all soon, safe travels.
Lisa Phifer:Displayed now: Poll Results, including all Comments: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_download_attachments_64078630_AnnotatedResults-2DPoll-2Dfrom-2D13JuneCall-2Dv4.pdf&d=DwICaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=8_WhWIPqsLT6TmF1Zmyci866vcPSFO4VShFqESGe_5iHWGlBLwwwehFBfjrsjWv9&m=TNoGpKd0c5ik4O2C_O_9_MX-BQE2O2G7dztqS4bGOHE&s=jUisNDVqEPzQ9PRT4MhIoy47ET7TRHhXVVrJAz4Z0nQ&e=
Lisa Phifer:Q2 Domain Name is on page 2 of Annotated Results
Stephanie Perrin:My apologies for being late. Adobe demanded an update.
Benny Samuelsen / Nordreg AB:very bad sound
Stephanie Perrin:lost audio
Jim Galvin (Afilias):chuck you disappeared.
Alex Deacon:no audio from chuck.
Michele Neylon:Audio is fine on the bridge
Marika Konings:sound on the phone bridge is fine
Michelle DeSmyter:I hear you loud and clear
Michele Neylon:no idea about adobe
Jim Galvin (Afilias):very choppy audio from chuck before he disappeared
Marc Anderson:Mine has cut out a little from time to time, but its fine at the moment.
Marika Konings:please make sure to dial into the phone bridge as AC sound is less reliable
Tim Chen:Sorry I am only listen only. and in chat. but I am not clear why, when we have at least 80% agreement on no changes, we are debating individual edits.
Michelle DeSmyter:I am checking Adobe right now
Sara Bockey:appears I've lost audio
Tim Chen:I would add, this is a group of 13 people. I'm quite sure we are not empowered to be making decisions.
Michelle DeSmyter:will be one moment
Lisa Phifer:red x if you cannot hear
Michele Neylon:Tim - we are very aware of that :)
Stephanie Perrin:Should we try reconnecting with Adobe.
Jim Galvin (Afilias):dialing in now
Lisa Phifer:Alex, Jim, Stephanie, are you all on AC audio?
Stephanie Perrin:yes\
Jim Galvin (Afilias):i am now on phone
Marika Konings:Thanks Jim. All, please dial into the audio bridge - sound issue appears to be linked to Adobe Connect.
Chuck Gomes:For those who cannot hear me, are you listening via Adobe?
Tim Chen:yes
Lisa Phifer:Please stand by - Michelle is working on audio issue
Jim Galvin (Afilias):audio great on the phone
Tim Chen:I lost audio a few min ago
Chuck Gomes:Michele is resetting Adobe sound
Tom Undernehr:I lost audio as well
Tim Chen:back, thx
Jim Galvin (Afilias):audio is back on AC
Lisa Phifer:If you still cannot hear put red X
Alex Deacon:thanks....
Jim Galvin (Afilias):no we heard Herb
Stephanie Perrin:Yes did not hear Herb
Jim Galvin (Afilias):you disappeared just a few minutes ago
Alex Deacon:only out for the past 2 mins or so....
Tim Chen:no, only was 2 or 3 min outage on my end
Benny Samuelsen / Nordreg AB:It was after Q4
Benny Samuelsen / Nordreg AB:we lost it
Jim Galvin (Afilias):you had just gotten to the end and were about to ask for comments on last question
Lisa Phifer:Displayed now: pecific Edits proposed in Poll Results: Merged-ThinDataPurposes-v3-redlineForDiscussion.doc
Lisa Phifer:Chuck is describing table that starts on page 3
Sara Bockey:Unfortunately, I need to drop. Thanks all. I will catch up on the rest of the call on the list /recording
Stephanie Perrin:I don't know how I missed this poll, I was sure I had done it .....is it possible to redo this. I can see my name is not up there...but clearly this is important.
Rob Golding (IANA#1471):"criminal investigation" is something that happens not a purpose as such
Rob Golding (IANA#1471):*agreed*
Lisa Phifer:All, PDF has been reloaded with redlining displayed a bit differently and perhaps easier to read
Michele Neylon:We'd cover it in our terms of service and / or privacy policy though
Michele Neylon:though yes - it's not the reason you collect the info in the first instance
Rob Golding (IANA#1471):It's not a purpose of collecting the data, its a potential usage of the collected data
Michele Neylon:it's legit
Michele Neylon:but I agree with Stephanie
Stephanie Perrin:Exactly, nor does ICANN have the mandate to order data retention, solely for law enforcement purposes
Lisa Phifer:Note the column "Collection Rationale" where Andrew identifies collection is needed for purposes 1 and 2. That's in reference to 1) A purpose of regirsration data is to provide info about the lifecycle of a domain name and its resolution on the Internet.
Rod Rasmussen:@David - Research is a good example. Some is clearly needed for ICANN to actually *fulfill* its mission and launches studies regularly.
Rob Golding (IANA#1471):goes to our specific-purposes#1 "to support the lifecycle of a domain" (whether we shoudl add "to assist in diagnosing problems" type purpose is something we shoudl discuss/agree) but "to help police" is not a _purpose_ of the collecting of data it is a _use_ of the colleted data
Lisa Phifer:2) A purpose of RDS is to facilitate disseminations o fgTLD regstratoin data of record, such as domain names and their domain contacts and name servers in accordance with applicable policy.
Stephanie Perrin:Certainly
Rob Golding (IANA#1471):possible reasons for disclosure, yes
Rod Rasmussen:@Chuck - not necessarily "public" but yes - that's the gist of it
Michele Neylon:it'd be very hard to say - "no we won't let LEA have access to any data" - but at the same time I agree with Stephanie - it's not ICANN or our role to collect data "just in case"
Lisa Phifer:EWG did not differentiate between purposes for collection and access
Rob Golding (IANA#1471):e.g. we collect c/card payment information for the purpose of charging our customers for their services., we might under the right paperwork disclose that information to law-enforcement to assist in tracking down fraudsters, but tahts not the specific purpose of our collecting it, only an incidental possible use after the fact
Lisa Phifer:Arguably EWG permissible purposes are purposes for access (public or gated) not collection
Stephanie Perrin:I certainly did my level best to nag everyone to make the distinction, as it is vitally important.
Stephanie Perrin:WE started with use cases. In my view, many of the use cases were already out of bounds from a data protection perspective
Tim Chen:I'm not sure what we are arguing about here. Some people are afraid that the current language endorses the use of thin whois data for research and security purposes? That's reaching.. It implies that anything not listed here is not a permissible purpose. which is nuts.
Tim Chen:and it serves no purpose to interpret what is written here as if it says "to help police"
Rob Golding (IANA#1471):@Tim - I think we want to just be clear about the differnce between THE reason for collecting it vs A reason for providing access toit
Lisa Phifer:In this case, the elements listed have been identified as part of the minimum public data set, thus "publication"
Rob Golding (IANA#1471):rename the column "EWG Suggested Uses" ?
Stephanie Perrin:I will go through them all on the plane and get back on the list
Lisa Phifer:WG Agreements 5-13 already identify all of these as "a legitimate purpose for Minimum Public Data Set collection.
Rob Golding (IANA#1471):The poll indictaes there's still a lot of disagreement on some elements - so we've agreed they might be in it , not are in it ;)
Alex Deacon:@Lisa - OK great....I'm not suggesting we revisit past agreements....
Rob Golding (IANA#1471):For _collection_ I agree most of it shoudl be there for control
Stephanie Perrin:Depends on what we mean by control?
Lisa Phifer:WG Agreement #5. Domain name control is a legitimate purpose for Min Public Data Set collection - already a rough consensus on this
Rob Golding (IANA#1471):some of it is not "collected" as such
Rob Golding (IANA#1471):(and "lifecycle management" is probably bette r than "control"
neil schwartzman:not sure how and where to put Xes, for a start
Rob Golding (IANA#1471):@neil - drop down list at top next to man waving
Lisa Phifer:@Neil, use icon on upper bar (with hand raised) to choose X or check or raise or lower hand
neil schwartzman:ah tnx.
Rod Rasmussen:@Stephanie, since when does ICANN not have a role in ensuring that registrants can't legally control the names they've paid for?
Alex Deacon:Is it safe to assume EWG report defines "domain name control"?
Stephanie Perrin:Ok, I will save my concerns for later
Rod Rasmussen:+1 on that Chuck! What else would we use besides "control" since the royal "we" has decided that domains can't be owned?
Michele Neylon:Alex - I know we discussed it in detail
Rob Golding (IANA#1471):"lifecycle management"
Stephanie Perrin:I answered....lets move on
Rob Golding (IANA#1471):"reistration documentation"
Michele Neylon:+1 can we please move on
Rob Golding (IANA#1471):"registrant-registrar-registry contract"
Lisa Phifer:Tentative conclusion: The purpose of collecting Min Public Data Elements is Domain Name Control
Stephanie Perrin:The collection rationale is useful.
Stephanie Perrin:It would be a shame to lose it
Jim Galvin (Afilias):agree with lisa
Rob Golding (IANA#1471):I agree, for each element it's good to have the "why collect" and then the "publication reason" and then the "access level"
Stephanie Perrin:The first question a data commissioner is going to ask when investigating a complaint is why are you collecting this data. Goes to the data minimization principle. Agreeing these purposes in policy standardizes the response which right now must be pretty random, on a globla basis
Lisa Phifer:Our task is to identify requirements for collecting, maintaining, and providing access to gTLD registration data
Rob Golding (IANA#1471):and maybe "who" collects it ?
Tim Chen:+1 Chuck
Tim Chen:if we say that it is not ICANN's place to say what the use-purposes of whois data are, then you can strike the entire Purpose column and just focus on Collection rationale
Tim Chen:which is 'domain control' or similar for all data elements by default, and we can debate who disagrees with that at each data point
Tim Chen:then move to publication
Lisa Phifer:Following on Rob's point, could add access level (here all public) and who collects the element
Benny Samuelsen / Nordreg AB:If we dont define legit use there are no restrictions in place
Stephanie Perrin:I dont think there is any disagreement
Tim Chen:i disagree
Tim Chen:when did access become part of this discussion?
Tim Chen:prior discussions, or so I thought, were trying to talk about thin as publicly available
neil schwartzman:alex you are decidedly louder than other speakers. perhaps move the headset back off. oops not that far
Lisa Phifer:@Tim, as this table is only the min public data set, access was already agreed to be public for these data elements
Benny Samuelsen / Nordreg AB:yes
Benny Samuelsen / Nordreg AB:we can hear
Tim Chen:@Lisa yes I think we are agreeing
neil schwartzman:agree with tim wholeheartedly
Rob Golding (IANA#1471):collection & purpose are kind of interlinked though - the "purpose" of collecting the domain name by the registrar is to enable the registration with the registry,
Rob Golding (IANA#1471):the ewg purposes are "possible collection rationales" ?
Tim Chen:agree with Rob
Tim Chen:it strkes me that, as used here, purpose and rationale are the same thing
Lisa Phifer:@Rob, I think the EWG purposes are more list possible access rationales
Tim Chen:so purpose is redundant
Lisa Phifer:more like (not list)
Rob Golding (IANA#1471):(indeed, most of them would then get crossed out)
Alex Deacon:I don't think the rationale in this table are RDS material not EWG matreial.
Rob Golding (IANA#1471):- yes, reading them again, they are much more "uses of published data" rthan" reasons to collect"
Lisa Phifer:@Alex can you explain
Alex Deacon:@lisa - just responding to stepahies statement - I thougth that the collection and publication rationale columsn were created (by andrew and others) as part of our work - not EWG work.
Lisa Phifer:Previously polled on to reach rough consensus: WG Agreement #5. Domain name control is a legitimate purpose for Min Public Data Set collection
Stephanie Perrin:I vote to move on.
neil schwartzman:i disagree with access rationale as a term
neil schwartzman:+ 1 to lisa
Tim Chen:"publish" and "access" are very different terms
Rod Rasmussen:Access can be "public" access as well. Not just gated.
Rod Rasmussen:In other words Access>Publication in the context we've been discussing this - at least that's what I'm taking from the conversation.
Tim Chen:"access" implies a gate of some kind. "publish" does not.
Tim Chen:I disagree with attempts to re-word publish as access
Stephanie Perrin:The rationale for providing the min public data set in as broadly public a manner as practicable is to control domain names, and enable all stakeholders to understand the basic minimum data set
Rod Rasmussen:@Tim - I'm not seeing it that way, but I guess that means we need to carefully define terms. I guess you could reverse my thing depending on how you define things.
Rob Golding (IANA#1471):sdo we need to distinguish between "collected" and "created" or "calculated" or "interpolated" or "pulled from external sources" data ?
Lisa Phifer:Chuck, we have 80--90% of the WG not disagreeing with the rationales given. I recommend that we keep that and remove the purposes column and note the smaller points of disagreement on rationales.
Rob Golding (IANA#1471):for example registrar name is not "collected" (or part of the data-set as such)
Tim Chen:we can move on, so long as we have not decided to invoke the term "access" in any formal way here
Rob Golding (IANA#1471):it's "retrieved" by knowing teh iana id
Lisa Phifer:For the record, access in our charter does not imply gating - it is a question we answer, should access be controlled in any way and if so how
Lisa Phifer:We spent the past month deliberating "what guiding principles should be applied to Min Public Data Set access? The WG agreements produced include...
Lisa Phifer:22. At least a defined set of data elements must be accessible by unauthenticated RDS users.
Lisa Phifer:20. gTLD registration data in the Min Public Data Set must be accessible without requestor identification, authentication, or stated purpose.
Rob Golding (IANA#1471):A while away yet, but the next LINX quarterly meeting (21/22 August) during that is a talk sepcifically about the GDPR from expert, I've requested if linx can make that more "open" than usual (webcast is member only) and will report to the group if tat s possible for peoeple to be able to "jump into"
Amr Elsadr:ccTLD responses will be added here as they come in: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_x_rVjwAw&d=DwICaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=8_WhWIPqsLT6TmF1Zmyci866vcPSFO4VShFqESGe_5iHWGlBLwwwehFBfjrsjWv9&m=TNoGpKd0c5ik4O2C_O_9_MX-BQE2O2G7dztqS4bGOHE&s=Wnv4v6y9IoD9WohqmvXiOGFcntDvKazKaLendBeZCZo&e=. As Susan, noted, we have 2 so far.
Stephanie Perrin:Any idea who the expert is Rob?
Rob Golding (IANA#1471):Andrew Cormack fro JISC
Tim Chen:Have fun Joburg folks. safe travels!
Lisa Phifer:All, you can find links to our ICANN59 sessions at the top of our wiki landing page https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__tinyurl.com_ng-2Drds&d=DwICaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=8_WhWIPqsLT6TmF1Zmyci866vcPSFO4VShFqESGe_5iHWGlBLwwwehFBfjrsjWv9&m=TNoGpKd0c5ik4O2C_O_9_MX-BQE2O2G7dztqS4bGOHE&s=lVyrBnZBP_ll8UEp0xMpvNoDAiOzS8fKb02LzA449eM&e=
Jim Galvin (Afilias):thanks chuck. bye all.
Stephanie Perrin:Thanks!
Rob Golding (IANA#1471):*sad* not to be joining you all on Joburg :(
Patrick Lenihan:Thanks to Each and All!
Alex Deacon:Thanks chuck.
Rob Golding (IANA#1471):thanks chuck
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