[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] a suggestion for "purpose in detail"

Thu Mar 23 14:55:08 UTC 2017

The simultaneous moaning over a small whois privacy fee, with the total
disregard and ignorance over current whois use cases, and the desire to
destroy a company over it(oops, I mean "step on toes"), and impose various
other burdens that must be borne by "someone else", because the registrars
can't possibly spend a dime... bother me quite a bit more. John's tone is
more than justified considering the unreasonable attitudes prevalent here.

If yall are going to claim that all current use cases are not only illegal
but invalid, you won't get much sympathy over raising your fees a dollar to
make them "legal" again.

On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 10:29 AM, Ayden Férdeline <icann at ferdeline.com>
wrote:

> (Off-list)
>
> Who is John Bambenek? His tone (and the lack of substance to all of his
> comments) really bothers me.
>
> - Ayden
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 2:24 pm, John Bambenek via gnso-rds-pdp-wg <
> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org> wrote:
>
> Yes someone will have to pay for it.
>
> You will. And I'll be the one that makes that happen.
>
> Deal with it.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 23, 2017, at 09:18, Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net>
> wrote:
>
> As Robert Heinlein already correctly wrote half a century ago:
>
> "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch"
>
> Someone will have to pay for it. Free whois just means either the
> community or the customer pays for it some way or another.
>
> So why not rather find a legally compliant solution that would fit the
> requirements?
>
> Volker
>
> Am 23.03.2017 um 15:11 schrieb John Bambenek:
>
> Soon all of you will be forced to offer whois privacy for free.
>
> I'll leave it to you to figure out the economics.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 23, 2017, at 09:07, Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net>
> wrote:
>
> Hi Allison,
>
>
> Several registrars already offer free whois privacy. They made it work, so
> you should keep up!
>
> Most such registrars still charge for the same service, it is just that
> the cost is hidden in their more expensive registration fees. Or they do
> not handle complaints appropriately. Or, or, or...
>
> Ultimately, someone is going to pay for the service, and it is not the
> registrar offering it for "free".
>
> TANSTAAFL.
>
>
> Maybe dumb bad actors. Savvy bad actors just populate whois with data of
>> unknowing third parties, thereby rendering any verification and validation
>> instruments useless and inconveniencing the affected data subjects as well.
>>
>
>
> I'm glad you know so much about how bad actors abuse whois. But from my
> own limited experiences- I don't see that many input validation mechanisms
> on bad domains because there are a lot of "555-5555" phone numbers out
> there and other arbitrary strings.
>
> I see what comes over my desk. Most domains we find involved in whois have
> perfectly formed and verifiable whois. The data just does not match the
> person who registered it.
>
>
>
> Some points/thoughts :
>> Cost of providing the service (this includes cost of the office,
>> personnel to run it - unless you are going to offer this free "John B" to
>> all ICANN registrars ?)
>> The underlying data may not even be allowed to be provided to the whois
>> privacy service, unless it is in the local jurisdiction of the registrant.
>> Harvesting and storage of whois data to be re-wrapped and sold is illegal
>> and many registrars state this on the terms and conditions.
>> Gated access has to be properly defined for each gate/right of access, an
>> example, a registrar would normally only need access to external whois for
>> the purpose of transferring a domain name - they have no other reason to
>> need access to this data. (registration, is totally different as it doesnt
>> need access to the "whois")  As above, storage of whois data is illegal
>> unless it was for a lawful purpose and the only one I can think of is
>> transfers.  ICANN require registrars to keep this info for upto 2 or 7
>> years (cant remember which).  This will step on some registrars toes as
>> well as John H's toes whi have a business model around the supply of whois
>> data for commercial gain (namely charging for it).
>> I am sorry to say that none of what the WG will do or complete will stop
>> bad actors, they are smart, they are not dumb (well some of them are:) )
>
>
> so who decided that these normal uses of whois are suddenly illegal? I
> hereby declare my allegiance to the dark side. Down with the government.
>
> Depends on the terms you accept when you make the whois inquiry. You may
> be violating the terms of the registrar or registry providing the whois
> service.
> Please note that ICANN mandates that registrars have an access agreement
> in place for any bulk request of whois data, most registrar apply the same
> rules for use of their whois data in general.
> And yes, registrars are free to contractually limit the uses the data they
> provide can be put to.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 8:16 AM, Chris Pelling <chris at netearth.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Typo materialistic should have been minimalistic
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Chris
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From: *"Chris Pelling" <chris at netearth.net>
>> *To: *"gnso-rds-pdp-wg" <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> *Sent: *Thursday, 23 March, 2017 12:06:01
>>
>> *Subject: *Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] a suggestion for "purpose in detail"
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I hope everyone got home safe that attended ICANN58 :)
>>
>> Having just sat through and played catch up on this thread, a few things
>> stand out to me.
>>
>> On one side you have a stakeholder person (maybe group) advocating they
>> will pushing for "free whois protection" provided by registrar which simply
>> won't happen - for a number of reasons (see below), whereas the fundamental
>> issue is what will be collected and who will be able to see it.  Maybe this
>> could be worked on from a materialistic point of view, really what does
>> WHOIS/RDS need to show as its most basic data, I remember a discussion some
>> months ago where Michele mentioned about simply domain name, dates of
>> registration, expiry and DNS servers. (registrar name and abuse contact
>> details are a given to be shown)
>>
>> The storage of such data depending on "whom" the registrant and/or other
>> contacts are located, and where it is being seen from (different
>> jurisdiction for example) will come out further down the line in our
>> deliberations.
>>
>> Some points/thoughts :
>>
>>    - Cost of providing the service (this includes cost of the office,
>>    personnel to run it - unless you are going to offer this free "John B" to
>>    all ICANN registrars ?)
>>    - The underlying data may not even be allowed to be provided to the
>>    whois privacy service, unless it is in the local jurisdiction of the
>>    registrant.
>>    - Harvesting and storage of whois data to be re-wrapped and sold is
>>    illegal and many registrars state this on the terms and conditions.
>>    - Gated access has to be properly defined for each gate/right of
>>    access, an example, a registrar would normally only need access to external
>>    whois for the purpose of transferring a domain name - they have no other
>>    reason to need access to this data. (registration, is totally different as
>>    it doesnt need access to the "whois")  As above, storage of whois data is
>>    illegal unless it was for a lawful purpose and the only one I can think of
>>    is transfers.  ICANN require registrars to keep this info for upto 2 or 7
>>    years (cant remember which).  This will step on some registrars toes as
>>    well as John H's toes whi have a business model around the supply of whois
>>    data for commercial gain (namely charging for it).
>>    - I am sorry to say that none of what the WG will do or complete will
>>    stop bad actors, they are smart, they are not dumb (well some of them are:)
>>    )
>>
>> As for John H and clowns, I would gladly offer my services to help you
>> get over that :)  My issue/phobia is the dark, sadly for me that is a
>> reality I won't be able to overcome.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Chris
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From: *"John Horton" <john.horton at legitscript.com>
>> *To: *"nathalie coupet" <nathaliecoupet at yahoo.com>
>> *Cc: *"gnso-rds-pdp-wg" <gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org>
>> *Sent: *Wednesday, 22 March, 2017 16:33:22
>> *Subject: *Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] a suggestion for "purpose in detail"
>>
>> Thanks, Nathalie. I'm sure many share your frustration!
>>
>> I think that's a constructive question, and I'll jump in. My biggest fear
>> is that in the monitoring that companies like mine do for banks, payment
>> providers, e-commerce companies, etc. that helps determine whether a
>> merchant is who they say they are, and whether they are engaged in other
>> bad activity (i.e., laundering money) will be unable to obtain access to
>> the Whois records we need in order to preserve the integrity of the
>> payments system, protect payment providers from risk, and derivatively
>> protect consumers. In other words, my fear is that we'll lose access to
>> Whois records, which we need for that purpose.
>>
>> Actually, to be honest, that's not true -- my biggest fear (to answer
>> your question directly) is of clowns, and every time I travel, I ask the
>> hotel to please check for clowns in my closet before I enter the room. But
>> I assume you didn't really want to know my biggest fear -- you just want to
>> know my biggest fear in relation to Whois policy, correct? Two different
>> things, but yeah -- if a clown jumped out of my hotel closet, that would
>> probably be the realization of my biggest fear. That's probably nothing
>> that this working group can do much about, though.
>>
>> John Horton
>> President and CEO, LegitScript
>>
>>
>> *Follow LegitScript*: LinkedIn
>> <http://www.linkedin.com/company/legitscript-com>  |  Facebook
>> <https://www.facebook.com/LegitScript>  |  Twitter
>> <https://twitter.com/legitscript>  |  Blog <http://blog.legitscript.com> |
>>  Google+ <https://plus.google.com/112436813474708014933/posts>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 9:24 AM, nathalie coupet via gnso-rds-pdp-wg <
>> gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org> wrote:
>>
>>> +1 I must say I'm a bit disillusioned by the entire process. This PDP
>>> should look like a negotiating table, instead it is more like a War of
>>> Trenches.
>>> If stakeholders are not motivated to negotiate, there is no sense of
>>> urgency and stakes for change are so low, then I wonder what we are doing
>>> here in the first place.
>>> Could every stakeholder state what their biggest fear is, and we could
>>> try to avoid their realization?
>>> Or maybe, in last resort, we should just vote for the best proposal and
>>> go home?
>>>
>>> Nathalie
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> > On Mar 22, 2017, at 12:06 PM, Andrew Sullivan <ajs at anvilwalrusden.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 10:19:56AM -0500, John Bambenek wrote:
>>> >> Yes there is a difference which is why I am using both words. And
>>> that's why I am suggesting we talking about optional and maskable fields
>>> right up front as part of the requirements discussion not some ancillary
>>> discussion that happens later after all the decisions are already made.
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> > I thought the WG had already decided on a different (multi-pass)
>>> > strategy, in which data collection itself was treated first with the
>>> > principle that, if there were some (legitmate, hand-wave hand-wave)
>>> > purpose then collection would be considered.  Later, the further
>>> > question of access to such collected items would be taken up.
>>> >
>>> > I don't really care which way we do this, but it seems to me that we
>>> > need to stop arguing about the way by which we'll reach a result and
>>> > start actually doing work in the direction of some result.  The
>>> > meta-discussions about process are wearing out contributors (well, at
>>> > least one contributor!) and creating the condition in which those who
>>> > want no changes at all will get their way by exhaustion.  If ICANN is
>>> > incapable of coming to terms with the deficiencies of whois (the
>>> > protocol) after all this time, it will be revealed to be ridiculous.
>>> >
>>> > Best regards,
>>> >
>>> > A
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Andrew Sullivan
>>> > ajs at anvilwalrusden.com
>>> > ______________________________ _________________
>>> > gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list
>>> > gnso-rds-pdp-wg at icann.org
>>> > https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg
>>>
>>> ______________________________ _________________
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>>>
>>
>>
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>
>
>
> --
> _________________________________
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>
>
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>
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>
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>
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> - Rechtsabteilung -
>
> Key-Systems GmbH
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> 66386 St. Ingbert
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>
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_________________________________
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